Guide Dog Killed

[Kavik]

Need to add the dog was primarily a pet for her son, was NOT a protection dog

[sandgrubber]

I agree that breed/genetics influence the likelihood of certain behaviours in individuals in that breed. I also hear what Lo Pan is saying.

A lot of people are discussing the fact that the purpose of a breed will shape their behaviour and I agree. But we have to remember that the 'purpose' of bull breeds (i.e fighting other dogs) has been illegal for many many years. Sure, there are still people out there fighting their dogs and therefore selecting dogs for this purpose. But (particularly in this country) they are an absolute drop in the ocean compared to the amount of bull breeds that are around.

So these breeds have not been overwhelmingly selected for such traits for a very very long time.

Yes, bull breeds as a whole can be more narky with other dogs, but I would argue that the incidence of DA in 'fighting' breeds is much lower than other breeds that are still performing the task they were bred to do regularly (lets say herding breeds) and regularly being selected for such traits.

It makes sense, but it's not the only way to read history.

Using dogs to pull carts has been banned for almost as long as dog-fighting, and, unlike bans on dog fighting, this ban has been successfully enforced. I would be surprised if you didn't find some breeds are more inclined to pull than others. Without active selection, it takes a long time for a trait to drop out of a breeding population.

As for frequency of DA, ask anyone who runs a kennel or rescue if they find bull breeds more inclined to require veterinary treatment for puncture wounds than other breeds. In my kennel days we had a couple of regular clients who had more than one staffy x and required that their two dogs be kenneled separately. We did supervised play groups. While there were individuals bull breed dogs who were goodl in play groups, there were as many who just weren't reliable with other dogs.

I'm not saying bull breeds should be banned. But I think people need to be realistic if they buy a bull breed dog, and I'd love to see more breeders actively screening dogs with DA tendencies out of their breeding programs . . . or even better, actively selecting for dog-sooks.

[Salukifan]

I would argue that the incidence of DA in 'fighting' breeds is much lower than other breeds that are still performing the task they were bred to do regularly (lets say herding breeds) and regularly being selected for such traits.

Unless dog aggression served as useful for a breed's original function why would any breed still performing its original task be more inclined to be DA than a former fighting breed?

Lets take Greyhounds. Are you suggesting that as a breed, Greyhounds will be more dog aggressive than fighting breeds these days?

And working Foxhounds?

How does DA enhance function in a working herding dog???

As I see it, dog aggression serves only to enhance one function - killing dogs. The only breeds that I can think of still performing a task where DA is desirable are LGDs.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[melzawelza]

I would argue that the incidence of DA in 'fighting' breeds is much lower than other breeds that are still performing the task they were bred to do regularly (lets say herding breeds) and regularly being selected for such traits.

Unless dog aggression served as useful for a breed's original function why would any breed still performing its original task be more inclined to be DA than a former fighting breed?

Lets take Greyhounds. Are you suggesting that as a breed, Greyhounds will be more dog aggressive than fighting breeds these days?

And working Foxhounds?

How does DA enhance function in a working herding dog???

As I see it, dog aggression serves only to enhance one function - killing dogs. The only breeds that I can think of still performing a task where DA is desirable are LGDs.

You've misinterpreted my wording (which in all fairness probably isn't clear enough).

I'm not saying herding breeds are more inclined to be DA than 'fighting' breeds.

I'm saying that as they are still being actively tested and worked and selected for herding traits, I would argue that the amount of herding type dogs who still display strong herding traits would be much higher than the amount of 'fighting' dogs who still display active DA - simply because overall that trait is not being tested and selected for the way herding is in those breeds.

[melzawelza]

I agree that breed/genetics influence the likelihood of certain behaviours in individuals in that breed. I also hear what Lo Pan is saying.

A lot of people are discussing the fact that the purpose of a breed will shape their behaviour and I agree. But we have to remember that the 'purpose' of bull breeds (i.e fighting other dogs) has been illegal for many many years. Sure, there are still people out there fighting their dogs and therefore selecting dogs for this purpose. But (particularly in this country) they are an absolute drop in the ocean compared to the amount of bull breeds that are around.

So these breeds have not been overwhelmingly selected for such traits for a very very long time.

Yes, bull breeds as a whole can be more narky with other dogs, but I would argue that the incidence of DA in 'fighting' breeds is much lower than other breeds that are still performing the task they were bred to do regularly (lets say herding breeds) and regularly being selected for such traits.

It makes sense, but it's not the only way to read history.

Using dogs to pull carts has been banned for almost as long as dog-fighting, and, unlike bans on dog fighting, this ban has been successfully enforced. I would be surprised if you didn't find some breeds are more inclined to pull than others. Without active selection, it takes a long time for a trait to drop out of a breeding population.

As for frequency of DA, ask anyone who runs a kennel or rescue if they find bull breeds more inclined to require veterinary treatment for puncture wounds than other breeds. In my kennel days we had a couple of regular clients who had more than one staffy x and required that their two dogs be kenneled separately. We did supervised play groups. While there were individuals bull breed dogs who were goodl in play groups, there were as many who just weren't reliable with other dogs.

I'm not saying bull breeds should be banned. But I think people need to be realistic if they buy a bull breed dog, and I'd love to see more breeders actively screening dogs with DA tendencies out of their breeding programs . . . or even better, actively selecting for dog-sooks.

I have acknowledged that bull breeds can be more narky than other breeds as a whole, and I worked in a kennel for a long time so know what you're saying. (I'd argue that a kennel is an incredibly high stress environment for breeds that generally crave regular direct human contact and can be prone to anxiety, and that's part of the reason we see more issues in kennels).

I recognise the higher level of reactiveness/intolerance to other dogs, I just don't believe it's sooo prevalent and inevitable as many in this thread will make it out to me. I'd also argue that most bull breeds that have other dog issues are reactive or intolerant, as opposed to outwardly DA (i.e chase another dog down to attack).

[Salukifan]

I'm saying that as they are still being actively tested and worked and selected for herding traits, I would argue that the amount of herding type dogs who still display strong herding traits would be much higher than the amount of 'fighting' dogs who still display active DA - simply because overall that trait is not being tested and selected for the way herding is in those breeds.

No argument here then. Selecting for proven performance is always going to ensure a higher level of those traits.

[melzawelza]

I'm saying that as they are still being actively tested and worked and selected for herding traits, I would argue that the amount of herding type dogs who still display strong herding traits would be much higher than the amount of 'fighting' dogs who still display active DA - simply because overall that trait is not being tested and selected for the way herding is in those breeds.

No argument here then. Selecting for proven performance is always going to ensure a higher level of those traits.

Agreed. And the reason I mentioned this is that I've seen a lot of people in this thread comparing the two as a way to disparage bull breeds to nothing but their heritage i.e 'herding breeds herd, fighting breeds fight'. I don't believe the two are a good comparison.

At the moment, dogs of herding breeds are pretty reliable at showing a good or fair level of herding instinct, and the people making such statements were implying that 'fighting' in the bull breed dog will also be pretty much reliable.

Ban herding completely for the next 40 years and I think that trait would be much much more watered down and unreliable, and then we'd have a fair comparison.

[JulesP]

Agreed. And the reason I mentioned this is that I've seen a lot of people in this thread comparing the two as a way to disparage bull breeds to nothing but their heritage i.e 'herding breeds herd, fighting breeds fight'. I don't believe the two are a good comparison.

At the moment, dogs of herding breeds are pretty reliable at showing a good or fair level of herding instinct, and the people making such statements were implying that 'fighting' in the bull breed dog will also be pretty much reliable.

Ban herding completely for the next 40 years and I think that trait would be much much more watered down and unreliable, and then we'd have a fair comparison.

I don't know about this. The instinct in my 'show' border collies is pretty strong despite their ancestors not working for years and years. It is something that has always surprised me. Same with other 'show' breeds that I have seen herding.

[aussielover]

Agreed. And the reason I mentioned this is that I've seen a lot of people in this thread comparing the two as a way to disparage bull breeds to nothing but their heritage i.e 'herding breeds herd, fighting breeds fight'. I don't believe the two are a good comparison.

At the moment, dogs of herding breeds are pretty reliable at showing a good or fair level of herding instinct, and the people making such statements were implying that 'fighting' in the bull breed dog will also be pretty much reliable.

Ban herding completely for the next 40 years and I think that trait would be much much more watered down and unreliable, and then we'd have a fair comparison.

I don't know about this. The instinct in my 'show' border collies is pretty strong despite their ancestors not working for years and years. It is something that has always surprised me. Same with other 'show' breeds that I have seen herding.

I agree. Guide Dog and assistance dog retrievers (labs, GRs and crosses of the two) are still very mouthy in general which is a trait you would think would be undesirable in a service dog. Of course retrieving ability/desire also correlates quite highly with success rates as a service dog so that may be why the trait is still present.

I am also surprised at the number of show and pet bred herding dogs that still show some form of herding instinct. Even my aussie who didn't have a working dog in her lines for multiple generations showed some instinct and ability when tested.

Is there a link to a study for the claim that heritability of DA is 20% ?

[melzawelza]

Agreed. And the reason I mentioned this is that I've seen a lot of people in this thread comparing the two as a way to disparage bull breeds to nothing but their heritage i.e 'herding breeds herd, fighting breeds fight'. I don't believe the two are a good comparison.

At the moment, dogs of herding breeds are pretty reliable at showing a good or fair level of herding instinct, and the people making such statements were implying that 'fighting' in the bull breed dog will also be pretty much reliable.

Ban herding completely for the next 40 years and I think that trait would be much much more watered down and unreliable, and then we'd have a fair comparison.

I don't know about this. The instinct in my 'show' border collies is pretty strong despite their ancestors not working for years and years. It is something that has always surprised me. Same with other 'show' breeds that I have seen herding.

Forty years?

Do you completely disregard herding skill in your breeding program (or actively select against it?) or is it still something you keep in the back of your mind and want to preserve in your lines?

Also - herding is a very natural, base instinct in dogs in general, strongly selected for in herding breeds. Fighting your own species without provocation is not, and as such is not as long lasting when not selected for.

[aussielover]

Many species will fight to the death, especially over mating rights.

[melzawelza]

Many species will fight to the death, especially over mating rights.

As I said, without provocation. It's not natural to want to fight to the death for no reason other than you saw the other animal.

[hortfurball]

The headline says the guide dog was killed by pit bulls. It wasn't, it ran into the road and was killed by a car.

Of course it shouldn't have happened, it's tragic for everyone involved, but sensationalism is stupid.

It ran onto the road because it was being attacked by the other dogs. So they are directly responsible for the dogs death.

The only thing sensational about the title is the reference to pit bulls.

The headline actually says "Guide dog killed after being ambushed by pit bulls in Bellfield in Melbourne's northeast"

This is true, but what if it was something else that had startled the dog? It wouldn't even have made the news then. Say it was a windy day and there was a tarp that suddenly moved, the dog startled and jumped into the road. My dogs have almost done this on several occasions. What if it had been a golden that suddenly jumped out from behind a corner and startled the dog? Other than the pit bull type dogs involved, it's not even worth reporting.

Are you serious? A guide dog is not just a pet, it is a highly trained assistance animal that has had thousands of dollars invested in it and has passed a stringent selection process. Someone relied on that dog just to complete the day to day tasks that we all take for granted, and you think that her tragic death is 'not even worth reporting'?

I agree that the media takes enormous liberties with reporting of dog attack stories and is greatly to blame for the bad rep some breeds have, but I really think some are so busy pushing their own agenda that they lose sight of their humanity.

R.I.P. Matilda

Fighting your own species without provocation is not (natural)

We could learn a lot from dogs.

[geo]

Just to add to the original topic, we had a Guide Dogs charity day in town the other day and the representatives from Darwin were saying that several guide dogs there have been attacked (didn't make the news) by wondering dogs and as such are now no good in service, and put the training figure at $10,000. The NT (& probably North WA) has the worst dog owners in Australia for wondering dogs dogs, the fact that guide dogs get harassed was always going to happen considering the amount of dogs that are just allowed to wander.

My local council just shot 48 stray dogs, that's a few less that can come and follow us when walking. Trust me there's times when I just want to let my 2 dogs go when I'm fending off dogs who are allowed to roam (not just strays) and charge at me, the pram and the dogs.

People are always saying bogan owners giving Bull breeds a bad rap, in the NT it's all owners, as a whole they're all piss poor and if the NT had any focus on dog attacks etc.. the way Victoria does, I'm sure it would be leading the stats.

[melzawelza]

Agreed. And the reason I mentioned this is that I've seen a lot of people in this thread comparing the two as a way to disparage bull breeds to nothing but their heritage i.e 'herding breeds herd, fighting breeds fight'. I don't believe the two are a good comparison.

At the moment, dogs of herding breeds are pretty reliable at showing a good or fair level of herding instinct, and the people making such statements were implying that 'fighting' in the bull breed dog will also be pretty much reliable.

Ban herding completely for the next 40 years and I think that trait would be much much more watered down and unreliable, and then we'd have a fair comparison.

I don't know about this. The instinct in my 'show' border collies is pretty strong despite their ancestors not working for years and years. It is something that has always surprised me. Same with other 'show' breeds that I have seen herding.

I agree. Guide Dog and assistance dog retrievers (labs, GRs and crosses of the two) are still very mouthy in general which is a trait you would think would be undesirable in a service dog. Of course retrieving ability/desire also correlates quite highly with success rates as a service dog so that may be why the trait is still present.

I am also surprised at the number of show and pet bred herding dogs that still show some form of herding instinct. Even my aussie who didn't have a working dog in her lines for multiple generations showed some instinct and ability when tested.

Is there a link to a study for the claim that heritability of DA is 20% ?

Yes:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/publicationslist.org/data/pv1peguj/ref-7/Heritability%20of%20dominant%20aggressive.pdf

This was specifically in English cocker spaniels but nonetheless, it's the same genes at play

Backed up by this study that showed that 'pit bulls' had a 22% incidence of dog-dog aggression (and very low on the other types of aggression):

http://www.greyhoundpets.org.au/publications/ResearchArticleWhichBreedsareMostAggressive.pdf

[LizT]

Agreed. And the reason I mentioned this is that I've seen a lot of people in this thread comparing the two as a way to disparage bull breeds to nothing but their heritage i.e 'herding breeds herd, fighting breeds fight'. I don't believe the two are a good comparison.

At the moment, dogs of herding breeds are pretty reliable at showing a good or fair level of herding instinct, and the people making such statements were implying that 'fighting' in the bull breed dog will also be pretty much reliable.

Ban herding completely for the next 40 years and I think that trait would be much much more watered down and unreliable, and then we'd have a fair comparison.

I don't know about this. The instinct in my 'show' border collies is pretty strong despite their ancestors not working for years and years. It is something that has always surprised me. Same with other 'show' breeds that I have seen herding.

Instincts is a very strong provication in all breeds.

If we remember that ALL breeds decend from the wolf, and recall that no wolf will tolerate any intruder into his domain outsdie of his family members, then DA in dogs really shouldn't surprise us, it is the early socailisation to try to prevent DA, and is relative sucess in most (not all) dogs that is the truly amazing part.

[Dame Aussie]

I worked in a pound for over 3 years and the most aggressive dogs I saw were a couple of GSD's and a Maltese. I saw co-workers get bitten by dogs, the worst bites I saw were from a Lab and a Mastiff cross. I never witnessed anyone being bitten, or even hassled, by a bull breed...

Bull breeds and their crosses were probably the most common dog to come in as strays, and yet they were also one of the easiest breeds to deal with, other than the "Staffy scream" in their pens Sure, some were a bit reactive with other dogs, but no more than any other breed we got in there including JRT's, Maltese, Kelpies and lots more.

I have only been bnitten by one dog in my life, a little Terrier mix, my OH has been bitten once by a Weimeraner.

We live in a pretty low socio-economic area and have a lot of Pit Bulls around, I have met many and every single one has been an angel and more than happy to socialise with my dogs.

I guess what I'm getting at is whilst bull breeds might have a propensity to be DA, other breeds can too, and IME bull breeds have been one of the more reliable and trustworthy dogs, especially around children.

If the breed were not restricted in the first place, breeders could be breeding away from DA even moreso, but the Government has created a self fulfilling prophecy by banning them, it sends the breeding underground and TBH, I wouldn't trust the temparement of ANY dog bred by some moron in secret. I don't think it's fair to blame this on the breed itself, when what we have done as a community has forced it into the black market.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Aussie3

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Unless dog aggression served as useful for a breed's original function why would any breed still performing its original task be more inclined to be DA than a former fighting breed?

Because a dog of a fighting breed, from a non working line (although, strictly speaking not necessarily of a non working line) may have a low or even non existent inclination toward dog aggression.

A working line dog of another breed may have relatively high inclination toward dog aggression because the drives that enable it to perform its intended purpose also lend it to dog aggression.

That point aside, despite popular DOL opinion, aggression is more often than not part and parcel with a dogs nature, this fact remains a foundation that underlies all other inquiries into dog aggression.

An anecdote for what it's worth. Mum's pedigree Golden Retriever is neither of a fighting breed, nor bred to a working standard. He's useless, I don't believe he even fetches balls. Confront him with another large male, introduce another dog while he's eating, or introduce another male while an in season bitch is within eye shot, then we'll see

[Are You Serious Jo]

Agreed. And the reason I mentioned this is that I've seen a lot of people in this thread comparing the two as a way to disparage bull breeds to nothing but their heritage i.e 'herding breeds herd, fighting breeds fight'. I don't believe the two are a good comparison.

At the moment, dogs of herding breeds are pretty reliable at showing a good or fair level of herding instinct, and the people making such statements were implying that 'fighting' in the bull breed dog will also be pretty much reliable.

Ban herding completely for the next 40 years and I think that trait would be much much more watered down and unreliable, and then we'd have a fair comparison.

I don't know about this. The instinct in my 'show' border collies is pretty strong despite their ancestors not working for years and years. It is something that has always surprised me. Same with other 'show' breeds that I have seen herding.

Forty years?

Do you completely disregard herding skill in your breeding program (or actively select against it?) or is it still something you keep in the back of your mind and want to preserve in your lines?

Also - herding is a very natural, base instinct in dogs in general, strongly selected for in herding breeds. Fighting your own species without provocation is not, and as such is not as long lasting when not selected for.

Yes, have you been to a canine association run herding day and watched breeds like rotties, shepherds, corgis etc herd? As far as I know these breeds haven't herded for a very long time (longer than 40 years) and still retain that instinct. Herding isn't a base instinct in dogs, prey drive is, herding is a highly modified prey drive.

[Salukifan]

That point aside, despite popular DOL opinion, aggression is more often than not part and parcel with a dogs nature, this fact remains a foundation that underlies all other inquiries into dog aggression.

I doubt you'd get many DOLers denying that any dog can be aggressive in the right set of circumstanes. They've all got teeth and they're all prepared to use them at some stage.

However, how easily a dog can be triggerred to aggress, how hard it will bite in aggression and how long it will sustain its aggression vary. Those factors all have a genetic component and some breeds have been selectively bred to aggress easily and fiercely to other dogs. I named two such groups of dogs earlier.

Only an insane dog will attack unprovoked. Otherwise there will be a trigger for an attack - but such triggers may not be recognised by those who witness it. For some dogs, the presence of another dog is trigger enough.

An anecdote for what it's worth. Mum's pedigree Golden Retriever is neither of a fighting breed, nor bred to a working standard. He's useless, I don't believe he even fetches balls. Confront him with another large male, introduce another dog while he's eating, or introduce another male while an in season bitch is within eye shot, then we'll see

Im not certain of what you're intending to discuss with this statement. Your mum's dog is a pet isnt' he? Probably bred to be a pet which is what you suggest most dogs are. What is he 'useless' at as far as she's concerned?

Aussie3:

I worked in a pound for over 3 years and the most aggressive dogs I saw were a couple of GSD's and a Maltese. I saw co-workers get bitten by dogs, the worst bites I saw were from a Lab and a Mastiff cross. I never witnessed anyone being bitten, or even hassled, by a bull breed...

There is an inverse relationshp between the incidence HA and DA. I'd expect bull breeds to be at the bottom of the list of bites on kennel staff - its how they were bred to be. But that is no indicator of how they are with other dogs.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Haredown Whippets