E-collars, Prongs, Etc

[Luke GSP]

Yes, the working level changes with the environment. If we're going to work in a high distraction environment, the working level is going to be quite high. In a low distraction environment a little tickle might be ok, but when the distractions increase, so does the stimulation. It's a mistake to believe that the dog perceives the higher stimulation in the high distraction environment in the same way he perceives the lower stimulation in the low distraction environment.

ok, I think we are on the same page :) as in my example before with the trying to get someones attention when they are relaxed compared to trying to get their attention during a plane crash. The percieved input versus reaction (turning round to see who is trying to get your attention) is a much higher input but the perception by the recipient is the same (as it is being received and percieved in relation to the other stimuli) hence it elicits a similar response. where as if you tried to get the attention of someone sitting on the sofa resting with the same amount of vigour as you would in a plane crash the input would be seen as very OTT.

basically what I am saying is, the stim is weighted versus the other stimuli and the side effects of the adrenaline rush to achieve the same perceived message to the recipient

Edited August 7, 2012 by Luke GSP

[Aidan3]

That's the argument, but the two scenarios are quite different. We can't really say "it's just a tickle" just because the dog doesn't freak out when he receives the stim and therefore make the assumption that he perceives it in the same way as a lower stim in a lower distraction environment.

Does that make sense? I'm on my iPhone so I'm being lazy with my response :laugh:

[Luke GSP]

That's the argument, but the two scenarios are quite different. We can't really say "it's just a tickle" just because the dog doesn't freak out when he receives the stim and therefore make the assumption that he perceives it in the same way as a lower stim in a lower distraction environment.

Does that make sense? I'm on my iPhone so I'm being lazy with my response :laugh:

No worries, I'm going to bed soon anyway so will have to come back to this in the morning. I suppose the kind of "weighting" that I am talking about is that if i got kicked in the head whilst just walking down the street, I would perceive that impact as a certain level of "pain", but if during a game of rugby or in a sparring match, the same kick could go virtually unnoticed. The adrenaline rush and dopamine release in the later activities is changing my base level of pain perception hence the pain is weighted versus my current perception, ie I felt it less.

i see little reason why the same would not apply to a stimuli that is applied to a dog, if they are in a high stress, drive distraction situation such as chasing a roo, why would their system not be releasing all the chemicals that the body does in such situations that shift your base level perception? After all knowing that you have cut your foot with the same level of perception that you would have normally is not going to help you catch that Roo, rabbit etc etc. Having the ability to not feel it at the same level of perceived "discomfort" though will help immensely.

So basically what was a tap on the shoulder before, would have to be a harder tap on the shoulder once you have gone in to drive even though at the time they both felt like "taps on the shoulder".

[Aidan3]

Yes, that's absolutely right. But it's no longer a "tickle". A kick to the head is still a kick to the head no matter how we perceive it, and if someone kicks me in the head in the ruck on purpose I don't judge them any differently just because it didn't hurt as much as if they'd done it while I was walkIng down the street.

Not that it makes much difference if someone has a compelling reason to use an ecollar, but people don't always have a compelling reason when they use them. They will justify the use with reasons such as "it's only a tickle".

[Sparassidae]

I find it ridiculous when trainers say prong collars and e-collars "don't hurt". Of course they do, that's how they work. I've seen them used, I know how to use them, they are designed to cause pain and discomfort. Balanced/traditional trainers saying they don't hurt is as ridiculous as reward based training zealots saying "punishment doesn't work" and that's why you shouldn't use it.

Positive punishment works because it's aversive to the dog, they don't like it. It's not because the timing is so great that it fixes behaviour, it's because it hurts or causes discomfort, the dog pairs the discomfort/pain with the behaviour and doesn't repeat it.

If you "knew how to use them" you would understand that there are many different ways of using them than old fashioned positive punishment, "the dog has done wrong so shock it!" mentality, in fact I have never seen one used as a positive punishment.

Most of the e collar training that I have seen is to train a dog to repeat a desirable behaviour, not to take an undesireable one and teach the dog not to repeat it. but as I said i have never seen one used as a positive punishment.

Also, whilst on the subject of "pain and discomfort" do you not think that most training has a level of discomfort and possible pain (depending on the sensitivity of the animal?) Pain and discomfort can be far more than physical. Just putting an animal under pressure to learn a behaviour for a treat exerts a level of discomfort and yes "pain" albeit mental :) hence why IMO you need to have a strategy to relieve the pressure should you find the animal stuck.

An e collar used correctly would exert no more measurable "pain or discomfort" than any other method, Have a look in to e collar trained dogs that have been trained correctly, an awfull lot of them don't look like they are suffering discomfort to me. In fact I have seen most dogs display a much higher avoidance behaviour to an e collar on vibrate(which is much like a mobile phone vibrating) than they do to a correctly set stim.

Basically the wrong tool, applied to the wrong dog, in an incorrect manner, and the wrong situation will at best not work, and at worst damage the dogs long term development, alternatively the right tool, applied to the right animal, correctly, in the right situation willl work!

The trick is to be open minded enough to know when the tools at your disposal, in this situation are the wrong ones, for the animal your dealing with and consequently the knowledge of what to do is outside of your current knowledge. (please note that this last sentence is not "aimed" at anyone in particular just a general belief that I hold IMO

I don't understand why you'd use aversives for obedience/sports/everyday manners training though. These things are SO easy to train without any aversives, and the golden rule of dog training says to use the least aversive method possible.

But of course now you will tell me that withholding the treat is equally aversive to a low level stim, so I might as well just use an e-collar.

Well, I'd respond to that with a: why not?

I can train household manners quicker with an e-collar than I could without one. I'm not worried my dog is harmed by it - because I don't believe he is.

I really just use whatever method will give me the best result, the quickest. You have a golden rule saying to use the least aversive method possible but it certainly isn't an industry wide rule.

And you can use positive reinforcements whilst using an e-collar for negative reinforcement or positive punishment anyway. I've personally found a combination of all methods get the best results.

Why should I spend months perfecting the recall on a 2 year old Husky so that he'll recall under all circumstances, even when in full drive chasing a rabbit when I can do it in a mater of days or weeks with an e-collar? Since I don't believe the e-collar is harmful there is no reason not to.

[GoldenGirl85]

I have used a prong on my Golden to teach LLW. Previous to using the prong I had tried every method in the book, and they all failed I got onto K9Pro who recommended I do their LLW course with the aid of a prong, and for once, finally, the use of that collar gave us both the chance to learn together. I kind of relate a prong to power steering in a car, yes you get there in the end, but power steering makes your life so much easier. With a prong I had more control over Lexi which meant I had a chance to teach her that a walk can be enjoyed without pulling my arm out of its socket

Before putting the prong on Lexi I tried it on my own neck and pulled the lead, it didn't hurt, it did give a 'WTF was that?' feeling for a second, but no pain

[Aidan3]

Since I don't believe the e-collar is harmful there is no reason not to.

If you don't believe there is any harm in using an ecollar and that it's more efficient and more effective, why would you ever bother with +R?

[Luke GSP]

Not that it makes much difference if someone has a compelling reason to use an ecollar, but people don't always have a compelling reason when they use them. They will justify the use with reasons such as "it's only a tickle".

No problem with that statement Aidan2, As I said before, many people learn a way of training and then blindly implement it based on faith and previous experience (despite previous experience being with a different animal in a different situation.) IMO they (ecollars) work in some situations better than other methods but at the same time, other methods are better employed to sort out other issues. Same as a toolkit, I wouldn't use a hammer on a screw or a tape measure for a saw.

Right tool, right dog, righty situation applied correctly! That is what dog trainers should be striving for (IMHO) rather than "my tools better than your tool" and arguing over semantics. :)

To me the right tool is (Worst case scenario) the one that achieves the desired result between handler and animal that can be implemented in the time frame available, that leaves a lasting behavioural result without leaving a lasting physical or mental scar. (note when I say lasting, i mean beyond the moment of implementation)

[Sparassidae]

Since I don't believe the e-collar is harmful there is no reason not to.

If you don't believe there is any harm in using an ecollar and that it's more efficient and more effective, why would you ever bother with +R?

Because I believe a combination of both is most effective.

Plus +R is fun sometimes. Clicker training and shaping passes the time. I taught my dog to walk ladders with clicker training for fun, but my dog is never going to need to climb a ladder so I didn't put much effort into his ladder climbing reliability.

EDIT: I also thought I should point out that I already wrote that in my previous post. <removed>

Edited August 7, 2012 by NotMidol

[Aidan3]

Since I don't believe the e-collar is harmful there is no reason not to.

If you don't believe there is any harm in using an ecollar and that it's more efficient and more effective, why would you ever bother with +R?

Because I believe a combination of both is most effective.

Plus +R is fun sometimes. Clicker training and shaping passes the time. I taught my dog to walk ladders with clicker training for fun, but my dog is never going to need to climb a ladder so I didn't put much effort into his ladder climbing reliability.

EDIT: I also thought I should point out that I already wrote that in my previous post. <removed>

Errr, your other post came after my question. But sure, I will make a better effort to read your mind in future :laugh:

I'm not sure that you answered my question though, not that I had a problem with what you did write.

[Lollipup]

ETA: do dogs become "collar aware"? My girl most probably wouldn't be able to put two-and-two together, but I think my boy would figure out what was happening pretty quickly.

In the case of barking collars, dogs definitely become aware, I know that through working in pet retail! People would say to me quite often that they don't need to replace batteries/refill collars because the dogs recognise the collar being put on as a cue to be quiet/behave/shut down (not in those words, but that's obviously what's happening).

Lollipup, did you continue using that particular setting on Lola when you realised the effect it was having on her? Why/why not? What were you trying to train and would you do anything differently with hindsight? What corrections do you use on Chester? Why don't you use the e-collar on him? (I'm not picking on you, I just find this kinda thing really fascinating and don't really know any trainers locally whose brains I can pick :))

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far and THANK YOU for remaining civil. Looking forward to more discussion!

I also appreciate that the thread is remaining civil :)

The e-collar I have has 127 levels of stim and Lola responds to level 9 with a slight twitch. If its on vibrate, she bolts with her tail between her legs so I don't use vibrate on her. I was training a recall at the time and I have also used it for barking a couple of times and it has worked well but I haven't kept using it because at the time I was just wanting some experience with the collar as I haven't used them a lot and also I feel I would like to go back to using some other methods for those situations first, but as I've been time poor I haven't done a lot of training with my two lately at all.

I have tried to try out the e-collar on Chester but its been unreliable on him because of his thick hair. I think I would need to shave a spot to use it effectively on him, but since I don't really need it for any particular purpose with him I probably just won't use it for now. Other corrections I have used on him are a check chain, martingale collar, verbal corrections, and he has worn a prong collar but has had very few corrections on one. I won't use a check chain on him anymore as he hates it and takes the fun out of training. He is happier to have the prong on. But mostly I use a martingale collar on him if I feel I might need to use corrections, depends what we are working on. Hope this answers your questions and doesn't raise too many more? lol. I am not good at these threads, I am always worried I will say the wrong thing and go down in flames and cry.

[Sparassidae]

Since I don't believe the e-collar is harmful there is no reason not to.

If you don't believe there is any harm in using an ecollar and that it's more efficient and more effective, why would you ever bother with +R?

Because I believe a combination of both is most effective.

Plus +R is fun sometimes. Clicker training and shaping passes the time. I taught my dog to walk ladders with clicker training for fun, but my dog is never going to need to climb a ladder so I didn't put much effort into his ladder climbing reliability.

EDIT: I also thought I should point out that I already wrote that in my previous post. <removed>

Errr, your other post came after my question. But sure, I will make a better effort to read your mind in future :laugh:

I'm not sure that you answered my question though, not that I had a problem with what you did write.

For me I look at it like this:

If the e-collar was cruel, I'd not use it under any circumstances. I don't consider it cruel at all so I'll use it under any circumstances I feel it suits regardless of whether something that is considered "less aversive" could also do the job.

When assisting others with training, I won't recommend an e-collar first up as they are expensive. I'll focus on +R as it's cheap. I'm time poor and cash richer (but not rich, just more cash than time :p) so for my own dogs I'll usually do whatever I can to get the quickest results. There are some scenarios where +R might be quicker, or if I'm just out to train one of the dogs for mental stimulation I might go with the clicker just to teach them a trick. For something like a recall though, with my own dogs, I'll almost always use an e-collar. I'm helping someone right now and with the issue they're having an e-collar is perfect. I'd wack one on my dog and the problem would be gone in half an hour (fence fighting) plus some follow up training. Instead I am having to guide him through using +R techniques and mild punishment like water throwing (I hate throwing water as a punishment) and it's taking ages to fix. Granted this is over the internet as well since I don't have time to visit them IRL right now.

ETA: Also, with the GSD in my DP I had to be very careful with the e-collar as a tight collar inflamed his allergies. He lived till 3 and a half before I was forced to euthanise and for the last year I couldn't put the e-collar on him for more than half an hour or so a day.

Edited August 8, 2012 by NotMidol

[m-sass]

I will use ecollars but there is almost nothing I could do with a low setting that I couldn't do with +R alone.

So are you saying you'd use them on a higher setting only?

Either on a higher setting or with the full expectation that I will have to turn it up should it be necessary. If I could genuinely use only the lowest setting, I would use +R instead (and mostly that's what I do, I will use an ecollar but almost never do).

Yes I agree. Escape training on Ecollars at low settings causes in my experience a lack of drive focus.........dog is expecting stim, becomes confused, waste of time really IMHO over +R. However as a punisher high level stim short sharp duration, an Ecollar beats a choke chain by a country mile and doesn't place anywhere near the physical stress on the dog as the old traditional yank and crank.

[m-sass]

I find it ridiculous when trainers say prong collars and e-collars "don't hurt". Of course they do, that's how they work. I've seen them used, I know how to use them, they are designed to cause pain and discomfort. Balanced/traditional trainers saying they don't hurt is as ridiculous as reward based training zealots saying "punishment doesn't work" and that's why you shouldn't use it.

Positive punishment works because it's aversive to the dog, they don't like it. It's not because the timing is so great that it fixes behaviour, it's because it hurts or causes discomfort, the dog pairs the discomfort/pain with the behaviour and doesn't repeat it.

If you "knew how to use them" you would understand that there are many different ways of using them than old fashioned positive punishment, "the dog has done wrong so shock it!" mentality, in fact I have never seen one used as a positive punishment.

Most of the e collar training that I have seen is to train a dog to repeat a desirable behaviour, not to take an undesireable one and teach the dog not to repeat it. but as I said i have never seen one used as a positive punishment.

Also, whilst on the subject of "pain and discomfort" do you not think that most training has a level of discomfort and possible pain (depending on the sensitivity of the animal?) Pain and discomfort can be far more than physical. Just putting an animal under pressure to learn a behaviour for a treat exerts a level of discomfort and yes "pain" albeit mental :) hence why IMO you need to have a strategy to relieve the pressure should you find the animal stuck.

An e collar used correctly would exert no more measurable "pain or discomfort" than any other method, Have a look in to e collar trained dogs that have been trained correctly, an awfull lot of them don't look like they are suffering discomfort to me. In fact I have seen most dogs display a much higher avoidance behaviour to an e collar on vibrate(which is much like a mobile phone vibrating) than they do to a correctly set stim.

Basically the wrong tool, applied to the wrong dog, in an incorrect manner, and the wrong situation will at best not work, and at worst damage the dogs long term development, alternatively the right tool, applied to the right animal, correctly, in the right situation willl work!

The trick is to be open minded enough to know when the tools at your disposal, in this situation are the wrong ones, for the animal your dealing with and consequently the knowledge of what to do is outside of your current knowledge. (please note that this last sentence is not "aimed" at anyone in particular just a general belief that I hold IMO

This is also very common, "e-collars hurt, but so does everything else so it's ok". "Everything stresses the dog, so may as well use an e-collar".

You've never seen one used as P+? That's weird, because that's how they do snake avoidance training. I know it can also be used as R-, but it's still aversive, that's why it works. To use R- you must first apply P+.

I'm not saying I'm against the use of positive punishment or e-collars. Used correctly they're fine. I hate how reward training zealots first say "punishment doesn't work" and then produce some story of this person they saw using a prong collar incorrectly as "proof" that P+ is horrible and useless. And they ALWAYS do, they NEVER use a story where the aversive is being used correctly.

I don't understand why you'd use aversives for obedience/sports/everyday manners training though. These things are SO easy to train without any aversives, and the golden rule of dog training says to use the least aversive method possible.

But of course now you will tell me that withholding the treat is equally aversive to a low level stim, so I might as well just use an e-collar.

I guess you have method peddlers and dog trainers and I think people worthy of being call a dog trainer with a vast enough experience of different types of dogs and behaviours will have a prong and Ecollar in their tool box along side the clicker and treat pouch. I think any trainers staunch on views that they don't use prongs or they don't use treats for the good of the dog in a marketing spiel is the warning sign to find a proper trainer who can use the lot and cater for every type of behaviour in the most effective way is my general opinion.

[Skye GSD]

I guess you have method peddlers and dog trainers and I think people worthy of being call a dog trainer with a vast enough experience of different types of dogs and behaviours will have a prong and Ecollar in their tool box along side the clicker and treat pouch. I think any trainers staunch on views that they don't use prongs or they don't use treats for the good of the dog in a marketing spiel is the warning sign to find a proper trainer who can use the lot and cater for every type of behaviour in the most effective way is my general opinion.

Totally agree

Edited August 8, 2012 by Skye GSD

[Aidan3]

I don't know, I know trainers who are good enough with +R to not need anything else in their toolbox. Should they use prongs and e-collars because they aren't "proper trainers" without them? Isn't that suggestion "method pushing" in itself?

[megan_]

I'm happy that not all trainers can solve all problems. I don't think they need to get out of the training business if they can't - they just need to be aware of their limitations, be transparent with clients and refer them on as needed. Dog training is about so much more than tools. The fundamental skills is actually about communicating with humans - giving them clear, simple advice that they can follow through. Helping them destress and know when to take a break rather than taking their frustrations out on their dog. This is a very rare skill in a trainer and I'd look for this over their toolset any day.

There are a few situations where I would feel comfortable using a prong or ecollar. Shel used one with Zero, in conjunction with a program that was, by the sounds of it, 99% conditioning and positive anyway. The prong kept the community safe while he was being rehabilitated. But most dogs don't have these problems - most dogs aren't a threat to the community or their owners. They are bored, understimilated and have owners that understand nothing about body language ("let them sort it out!", "Jane is my friend so I want my dog to be friends with her dog". "socialization means saying hello to every strange dog", "don't worry he's friendly"). No ecollar or prong is going to resolve that issue.

I'm still interested what people feel about availability with no training? I go to a lot of training with different trainers, owners and dogs and many (most?) people stun me with their inability to follow very simple instructions.

[bedazzledx2]

You must be a superb trainer in order to train with both positive and negative reinforcement and positive punishment. Your timing has to be brilliant because you are not only looking to mark and reward the thing you like, you are also looking for the things to 'correct'. I freely admit I am not that good! I find it much easier to concentrate all my attention on the things I want and mark and reward that and manage the rest.

[itsadogslife]

I don't know, I know trainers who are good enough with +R to not need anything else in their toolbox. Should they use prongs and e-collars because they aren't "proper trainers" without them? Isn't that suggestion "method pushing" in itself?

I agree. So long as your methods (or method) is based on practice and experience rather than 'principle' then I see no problem with having many methods or just one. So long as you are getting good results it should not matter.

[Cosmolo]

I used to say often 'when used correctly XYZ equipment does blah blah'. And then i realised it's actually not at all about what happens when equipment is used correctly.

It's about the fallout that occurs when it's used incorrectly AND the probability of the equipment being used incorrectly.

If i use positive R incorrectly or ineffectively or use a front attach harness incorrectly or ineffectively, the fallout will be very different to that of an e collar used incorrectly.

And you know what.. most people use things incorrectly, aren't consistent etc. I'd rather minimise fallout within that reality.

Sorry Megan didnt answer your question- i do not believe that e collars should be freely available but i don't mind the restricted use policy we have here in VIC where collars have to be used under the direction of a qualified trainer and the dog has to undergo veterinary examination prior to use.