E-collars, Prongs, Etc

[Luke GSP]

An e collar used correctly would exert no more measurable "pain or discomfort" than any other method, Have a look in to e collar trained dogs that have been trained correctly, an awfull lot of them don't look like they are suffering discomfort to me. In fact I have seen most dogs display a much higher avoidance behaviour to an e collar on vibrate(which is much like a mobile phone vibrating) than they do to a correctly set stim.

oh yes, Lola hates the vibration, has a real reaction to it which made me feel terrible for doing it! Yet with the stim, she just pays attention to it, doesn't react nearly as highly to it. She finds the vibration more aversive.

Absolutely, I can get a much stronger negative reaction out of a dog from my voice tone alone, than I have seen from a correctly set ecollar on stim!

[Luke W]

I'm still learning too so if it was proved to me without a doubt that a tool was cruel or abusive, I would take it seriously and not use it.

Following up from what NotMidol (who the hell is he anyway ;)) said...

Do you have a definition of cruel in mind? Abusive?

IMO, "without a doubt" is pretty strict criteria. I'd modify it down to 'likely' or even 'possible'.

[Lollipup]

I'm still learning too so if it was proved to me without a doubt that a tool was cruel or abusive, I would take it seriously and not use it.

Following up from what NotMidol (who the hell is he anyway ;)) said...

Do you have a definition of cruel in mind? Abusive?

IMO, "without a doubt" is pretty strict criteria. I'd modify it down to 'likely' or even 'possible'.

Good point but I guess the hard part is that we will never know exactly what the dog is thinking or feeling. And my definition in my mind of cruel and abusive could differ to someone elses as well. If I had to come up with something - cruel is enjoying inflicting pain, abuse is the intentional misuse (in this case, of a tool) for a bad purpose such as to cause suffering. To answer your question though, I didn't really have a specific defininition in mind when I wrote it. Anything written is subjective I suppose.

I guess I say "without a doubt" because previous studies presented that I have read about as evidence against P+ have left a lot of room for doubt. I would want to have that doubt lessoned at least before basing my training decisions on it. I guess what I want is reliable data from studies.

[Aidan3]

I will use ecollars but there is almost nothing I could do with a low setting that I couldn't do with +R alone.

[Zug Zug]

I used an e collar for my problem barker, when our neighbour started complaining (she stopped quickly thank goodness).

I was always unsure if it worked at all, because I never saw any visible reaction from her. But she stopped barking, so ok something must have happened. She was on level 5 (out of 7 levels)

My friend put it on her dog, and the dog had a full-blown panic attack from the smallest shock (lowest setting). Dog cried, ran into the fence, kept setting it off again - awful apparently. I wasn't 't there but she was in tears telling me about it.

My dog is a mini poodle x (seasoned barker by this time). Her is a German Shepherd.

So I think that just tells me it really depends on the dog. Not only how tough their neck is, but also how tough-minded they are.

My girl has always been a strong character.

[megan_]

I will use ecollars but there is almost nothing I could do with a low setting that I couldn't do with +R alone.

So are you saying you'd use them on a higher setting only?

[Luke GSP]

I used an e collar for my problem barker, when our neighbour started complaining (she stopped quickly thank goodness).

So how many times did you have to stim the neighbour before she stopped????? :laugh:

Sorry, couldn't resit that one.

[Aidan3]

I will use ecollars but there is almost nothing I could do with a low setting that I couldn't do with +R alone.

So are you saying you'd use them on a higher setting only?

Either on a higher setting or with the full expectation that I will have to turn it up should it be necessary. If I could genuinely use only the lowest setting, I would use +R instead (and mostly that's what I do, I will use an ecollar but almost never do).

[megan_]

In what situations would you use one? Would it be for serious problems only?

[Aidan3]

In what situations would you use one? Would it be for serious problems only?

Yes, to prevent a greater harm when to do so using +R would be beyond my level of ability.

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

ETA: do dogs become "collar aware"? My girl most probably wouldn't be able to put two-and-two together, but I think my boy would figure out what was happening pretty quickly.

In the case of barking collars, dogs definitely become aware, I know that through working in pet retail! People would say to me quite often that they don't need to replace batteries/refill collars because the dogs recognise the collar being put on as a cue to be quiet/behave/shut down (not in those words, but that's obviously what's happening).

Lollipup, did you continue using that particular setting on Lola when you realised the effect it was having on her? Why/why not? What were you trying to train and would you do anything differently with hindsight? What corrections do you use on Chester? Why don't you use the e-collar on him? (I'm not picking on you, I just find this kinda thing really fascinating and don't really know any trainers locally whose brains I can pick :))

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far and THANK YOU for remaining civil. Looking forward to more discussion!

[fuzzy82]

I find it ridiculous when trainers say prong collars and e-collars "don't hurt". Of course they do, that's how they work. I've seen them used, I know how to use them, they are designed to cause pain and discomfort. Balanced/traditional trainers saying they don't hurt is as ridiculous as reward based training zealots saying "punishment doesn't work" and that's why you shouldn't use it.

Positive punishment works because it's aversive to the dog, they don't like it. It's not because the timing is so great that it fixes behaviour, it's because it hurts or causes discomfort, the dog pairs the discomfort/pain with the behaviour and doesn't repeat it.

If you "knew how to use them" you would understand that there are many different ways of using them than old fashioned positive punishment, "the dog has done wrong so shock it!" mentality, in fact I have never seen one used as a positive punishment.

Most of the e collar training that I have seen is to train a dog to repeat a desirable behaviour, not to take an undesireable one and teach the dog not to repeat it. but as I said i have never seen one used as a positive punishment.

Also, whilst on the subject of "pain and discomfort" do you not think that most training has a level of discomfort and possible pain (depending on the sensitivity of the animal?) Pain and discomfort can be far more than physical. Just putting an animal under pressure to learn a behaviour for a treat exerts a level of discomfort and yes "pain" albeit mental :) hence why IMO you need to have a strategy to relieve the pressure should you find the animal stuck.

An e collar used correctly would exert no more measurable "pain or discomfort" than any other method, Have a look in to e collar trained dogs that have been trained correctly, an awfull lot of them don't look like they are suffering discomfort to me. In fact I have seen most dogs display a much higher avoidance behaviour to an e collar on vibrate(which is much like a mobile phone vibrating) than they do to a correctly set stim.

Basically the wrong tool, applied to the wrong dog, in an incorrect manner, and the wrong situation will at best not work, and at worst damage the dogs long term development, alternatively the right tool, applied to the right animal, correctly, in the right situation willl work!

The trick is to be open minded enough to know when the tools at your disposal, in this situation are the wrong ones, for the animal your dealing with and consequently the knowledge of what to do is outside of your current knowledge. (please note that this last sentence is not "aimed" at anyone in particular just a general belief that I hold IMO

This is also very common, "e-collars hurt, but so does everything else so it's ok". "Everything stresses the dog, so may as well use an e-collar".

You've never seen one used as P+? That's weird, because that's how they do snake avoidance training. I know it can also be used as R-, but it's still aversive, that's why it works. To use R- you must first apply P+.

I'm not saying I'm against the use of positive punishment or e-collars. Used correctly they're fine. I hate how reward training zealots first say "punishment doesn't work" and then produce some story of this person they saw using a prong collar incorrectly as "proof" that P+ is horrible and useless. And they ALWAYS do, they NEVER use a story where the aversive is being used correctly.

I don't understand why you'd use aversives for obedience/sports/everyday manners training though. These things are SO easy to train without any aversives, and the golden rule of dog training says to use the least aversive method possible.

But of course now you will tell me that withholding the treat is equally aversive to a low level stim, so I might as well just use an e-collar.

[persephone]

I used an e collar for my problem barker,

So - this was a collar activated by the dog's action (barking) ..and not a collar activated by a human as part of training?

My friend put it on her dog, and the dog had a full-blown panic attack from the smallest shock (lowest setting). Dog cried, ran into the fence, kept setting it off again - awful apparently.

This is very different , again..as the dog barks ... collar activates ..dog gets a fright ..yips/barks/runs, collar activates ..and the situation can be very damaging to the dog. :( Poor, Poor, Dog .

IMO bark collars should not just be bought/used without it first being determined WHY dog is barking ..and if dog's temperament is solid enough .

ANY training aid should not be used unless the dog owner understands why their dog is acting in whatever way ..and what effect the tool will have on the behaviour.

An e collar (owner-operated) should never cause any prolonged and dangerous distress like that example .

Edited August 7, 2012 by persephone

[Cosmolo]

That will teach me to do a short reply.

I did not mean to suggest that an e collar does not cause discomfort. It is something the dog does not like. What I meant to explain was why an e collar works better than other tools that also cause discomfort. Which is where timing and adjustable levels come into play.

Megan- most people do not have the required skills. Which is why I very rarely ever recommend them. And like aidan, most things that I once would have considered an e collar for, I can now get with better knowledge and application of positive r.

[Luke GSP]

Either on a higher setting or with the full expectation that I will have to turn it up should it be necessary.

But surely, as previously said, the stim level has to be found as a working level in that environment, hence why the level control is on the handset, doesn't mean that it is not being used at the lowest level to get a reaction/acknowledgement. I don't think anyone has said that you can use the collar on it's lowest level (ie 1) it is the dogs lowest working level, in the circumstances that it is being trained.

[Aidan3]

Either on a higher setting or with the full expectation that I will have to turn it up should it be necessary.

But surely, as previously said, the stim level has to be found as a working level in that environment, hence why the level control is on the handset, doesn't mean that it is not being used at the lowest level to get a reaction/acknowledgement. I don't think anyone has said that you can use the collar on it's lowest level (ie 1) it is the dogs lowest working level, in the circumstances that it is being trained.

I'm confused too, what are you questioning? I wasn't talking about the collar's lowest setting.

[Luke GSP]

But of course now you will tell me that withholding the treat is equally aversive to a low level stim, so I might as well just use an e-collar.

No I will tell you what I said before every tool does not work with every dog, in every situation. There are many different dogs, with different drive levels and responses that are in an almost unimaginable amount of circumstances, and occasionally the correct tool is an ecollar, applied correctly, much the same as in a different scenario withholding the treat can be equally effective depending on circumstances and with an animal that responds to that approach.

There is NO one size fits all way of training all dogs in all circumstances to complete or avoid all types of desirable or undesirable behaviours. That is what i will tell you. That is why I will never dismiss any training method, as IMO they all have their limitations, which unfortunately usually leads to someone trying to apply the wrong tool, to the wrong dog in the wrong circumstances due to some kind of blind faith that their one size fits all method is the only way.

[persephone]

There is NO one size fits all way of training all dogs in all circumstances to complete or avoid all types of desirable or undesirable behaviours. That is what i will tell you. That is why I will never dismiss any training method, as IMO they all have their limitations, which unfortunately usually leads to someone trying to apply the wrong tool, to the wrong dog in the wrong circumstances due to some kind of blind faith that their one size fits all method is the only way.

[Luke GSP]

Either on a higher setting or with the full expectation that I will have to turn it up should it be necessary.

But surely, as previously said, the stim level has to be found as a working level in that environment, hence why the level control is on the handset, doesn't mean that it is not being used at the lowest level to get a reaction/acknowledgement. I don't think anyone has said that you can use the collar on it's lowest level (ie 1) it is the dogs lowest working level, in the circumstances that it is being trained.

I'm confused too, what are you questioning? I wasn't talking about the collar's lowest setting.

Sorry Aidan, Maybe we are talking at crossed purposes but i can't think of a situation where you wouldn't have the expectation that you would have to turn it up should it be necessary, isn't that the entire idea? find the working level to get an acknowledgement? maybe I have misinterpreted what you class as a "higher" setting, from what was demonstrated to me, a high setting would have be 16-18 out of 127 to get an acknowledgement response. I took it that you meant a higher setting of what is available on the unit (which of course would elicit a far more violent response than a basic acknowledgement.) If that is not what you meant, Sorry for the misunderstanding. :)

[Aidan3]

Yes, the working level changes with the environment. If we're going to work in a high distraction environment, the working level is going to be quite high. In a low distraction environment a little tickle might be ok, but when the distractions increase, so does the stimulation. It's a mistake to believe that the dog perceives the higher stimulation in the high distraction environment in the same way he perceives the lower stimulation in the low distraction environment.