E-collars, Prongs, Etc

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

Sonething that has piqued my curiosity in the other thread (but I don't want to derail it any further if that's even possible) and this IS genuine curiosity!

If e-collars and prongs and all that don't hurt, register as a minor annoyance at best and are barely felt HOW do they control a previously uncontrollable dog?! Obviously I'm a bit of a thicko, but seriously? If other training methods flat out do not work how does adding a "barely noticeable vibration" make such a huge difference?

Thanks :)

Ps: not trolling, obviously I can't ask my teachers about this stuff and despite being a Delta zombie I'm not completely close minded! Learning about dog training and behaviour is an endless journey after all.

[Cosmolo]

I am about to go out so don't have heaps of time to reply properly BUT-

E collars have the potential for exceptional timing- better than any other piece of training equipment in the hands of a skilled user. This is one reason why i think they can get such quick, accurate results- things can be made very clear IF the user is skilled.

E collars use a sensation that the dog has likely never felt before and therefore has not been desensitised to, and the level of stimulation can be adjusted extremely finely- again better than any other piece of equipment IF the user knows what they are doing.

I like training with e collars when appropriate but rarely recommend them to others now.

[teekay]

Mya has an E collar to stop her from escaping. My hubby has accidentally been shocked by it when we were testing the fence and yes it does hurt. BUT if the alternative is being shot by the local farmer I would rather Mya be hurt for a split second (and it really did not take her long to learn with the training we followed too, I would say she has probably been shocked 4 or 5 times in 3 years) than lose her life.

In all honesty though, to say the dog feels a 'vibration' is a bit of an understatement.

[lovemesideways]

Mya has an E collar to stop her from escaping. My hubby has accidentally been shocked by it when we were testing the fence and yes it does hurt. BUT if the alternative is being shot by the local farmer I would rather Mya be hurt for a split second (and it really did not take her long to learn with the training we followed too, I would say she has probably been shocked 4 or 5 times in 3 years) than lose her life.

In all honesty though, to say the dog feels a 'vibration' is a bit of an understatement.

Just going to address this, I would argue it seriously depends what setting you have a collar on. I've held a few types on collars, including putting a bark collar to my own neck, always on the lowest setting, and honestly never felt anything worse than a static shock.

The lowest setting on most e collars is just a vibration.

EDIT: A friend has pointed out you may be talking about containment fencing, which works different to a regular ecollar.

Edited August 7, 2012 by lovemesideways

[persephone]

In all honesty though, to say the dog feels a 'vibration' is a bit of an understatement.

using an e collar as a TRAINING tool is different to the invisible fence idea.

Dogs' necks are also tougher than our arms/hands :)

The ecollar`, when used properly in training is set at the lowest level which causes a dog to notice it . In most dogs, because it IS an unfamiliar sensation ..this can be a light "bzzt" ..like a flea bite .This then enables the trainer/owner to get the dog focussed ...

Prong collars, if my memory is correct ...it's been a long time since I used one also do not hurt when used correctly ..yes, they firmly pinch/poke all the way 'round a dog's neck ..but it is not painful as such ..not like a smack on teh nose, or a flick with a leash.

All training aids do not inflict real pain WHEN USED CORRECTLY, as part of a training program.

[persephone]

never felt anything worse than a static shock.

yep ..and it's the fright/suddenness which makes ME yelp :p

[Lollipup]

Mya has an E collar to stop her from escaping. My hubby has accidentally been shocked by it when we were testing the fence and yes it does hurt. BUT if the alternative is being shot by the local farmer I would rather Mya be hurt for a split second (and it really did not take her long to learn with the training we followed too, I would say she has probably been shocked 4 or 5 times in 3 years) than lose her life.

In all honesty though, to say the dog feels a 'vibration' is a bit of an understatement.

Yes I think you're talking about invisible fencing which is different to an e-collar, usually less adjustable and more of a shock. Try a remote controlled e-collar - many of them are adjustable by less than 1% per increment and the level that my dog can feel, I can't feel and most people I have tried it on can't feel. I have felt it up to the highest level, the higher levels are like an electric fence type zap but I still wouldn't call it pain although definitely not pleasant. The levels most people use on dogs are more of an annoyance, almost a tickle. I know when I have tried it on Lola, she looks more like its a mild annoyance than a pain.

With the invisible fences, I have had limited experience but it hasn't been positive so far and I personally would choose a plain electric fence that the dog can see, over the invisible fence. I met some people who had to put their dogs in the ute to take them through the front gate because the dogs were so fearful to go through due to the invisible fence system they had, which was a cheap one on ebay. I think quality does make a difference too and you would want something that is adjustable in level of stim to suit the dog its being used on.

[Lollipup]

If you can maybe speak to a trainer that would let you try an e-collar and a prong, you might be surprised? I'll admit, when I first got into training I was going positive all the way and I thought prongs were the most evil things, and "shock collars" too. But I decided to learn about it with an open mind, tried them on myself and was genuinely surprised. The prong looks way worse than it is and the e-collar sounds way worse than it is because of wide spread views on them. Trying it out on yourself is the best way to make a decision on it :) I have even put both around my own neck and let someone else do the pulling/button pushing.

I don't think just anyone should be able to use them without the guidance of an experienced trainer though, same goes for any tool. Abuse or misuse is in the user.

I'm still learning too so if it was proved to me without a doubt that a tool was cruel or abusive, I would take it seriously and not use it.

[megan_]

I sell don't understand if it OS just a tickle why do they stop? Why do the collars have higher settings then? I'm genuinely interested.

Cos - you see a lot of clients. How many do you think have timing skill? for those that use or sell them, do you think they should be freely available, or should people have to do a course first? They key phrase that crops up is "if used correctly" but you can buy them on the Internet, whack it on the highest setting to " shut that bloody dog up".

Edited August 7, 2012 by megan_

[megan_]

ETA: do dogs become "collar aware"? My girl most probably wouldn't be able to put two-and-two together, but I think my boy would figure out what was happening pretty quickly.

[Lollipup]

I sell don't understand if it OS just a tickle why do they stop? Why do the collars have higher settings then? I'm genuinely interested.

Cos - you see a lot of clients. How many do you think have timing skill? for those that use or sell them, do you think they should be freely available, or should people have to do a course first? They key phrase that crops up is "if used correctly" but you can buy them on the Internet, whack it on the highest setting to " shut that bloody dog up".

If you are using it as a punisher, it has to be aversive to work as a punisher, so the stim is an unpleasant feeling to the dog in some way. Doesn't necessarily mean it is pain though. If you are using it as a negative reinforcer, the dog still wants it to stop or go away like an annoyance, a constant tapping that they want to stop because it feels weird. The higher settings are for dogs with high drive or a dog that is in high drive and will push past the lower settings, such as stock chasing. I don't agree that they are so readily available to just anyone because these higher settings are there.

ETA: do dogs become "collar aware"? My girl most probably wouldn't be able to put two-and-two together, but I think my boy would figure out what was happening pretty quickly.

Yes. It is recommended to get the dog used to the feel of the collar before using it. You can also get fake ones with the weight of the real one so the dog gets used to the feel of it first.

[Luke GSP]

Sonething that has piqued my curiosity in the other thread (but I don't want to derail it any further if that's even possible) and this IS genuine curiosity!

If e-collars and prongs and all that don't hurt, register as a minor annoyance at best and are barely felt HOW do they control a previously uncontrollable dog?! Obviously I'm a bit of a thicko, but seriously? If other training methods flat out do not work how does adding a "barely noticeable vibration" make such a huge difference?

Thanks :)

Ps: not trolling, obviously I can't ask my teachers about this stuff and despite being a Delta zombie I'm not completely close minded! Learning about dog training and behaviour is an endless journey after all.

as a foreword, I know nothing about prong collars and Please note that I am by no means an expert on ecollars either but, i would say that the benefits of an e collar are far wider than just with an "uncontrollable dog" as I believe that they can be used in most training scenarios as well. I think the issue comes from the statement "barely noticable vibration" The feeling would be from a stim and the stim level is dependant on a few factors. You set the collar on a stim level to get a "reaction" not a pain response. By reaction I mean acknowledgement that something has occurred eyes blink, dogs looks down or around, moves it's head. Obviously the level that a reaction is achieved would/could differ between a low and high drive/distraction state, and that is what needs to be "tuned" to meet the requirements of the particular animal, in the particular situation in question. Hence why most (if not all ecollars) have the level control on the handset. What one dog feels is barely noticable might be intolerable to another, hence why it is so important for the operator to learn the correct way to use the collar, rather than strapping it on and "giving it a go" like anything, in the correct hands they can do a great job but in the wrong hands they can be next to useless or at worse have a negative effect.

Think of it this way, when you are sat on your sofa at night, how hard would i need to tap you on the shoulder to get your attention, now think about how hard i would need to tap you on the shoulder to get the same response in the middle of a plane crash, when your body is so full of fear, adrenaline etc that you feel your going to explode????? drastic variance in situation, but hopefully it will give you an idea. Now imagine the differing stimuli levels to get a reaction from a dog who is high drive when he is wandering round the yard with nothing doing and when in a state of drive peak (when the drive initiation and build has been from an undesirable source) again two very different states of mind.

Have a look on you tube for ecollar training, there are loads on there about setting stim levels etc and the different methods that can be applied, pre stim, bouncing, variable stim etc

Basically, if you have a dog who is sensitive you may get a reaction on 6 but in a dog who does not have the same sensitivity you might need 10, 12 or higher to get the same reaction they both felt the same level of stimuli "enough to notice that something was going on) but from two very different levels.

I would summise that the prong is a similar thing ie some dogs would nearly choke themselves whilst dragging their owner down the road but on the same collar, the negative of pulling would be enough of an aversery to put a more sensitive animal off. The prong to the high threshold animal is simply the same level of averserie as the standard collar on a sensitive dog, it just took a higher level of stimuli to get the same reaction and outcome.

As i have said, I know nothing about Prongs in any way and what i have typed is purely me thinking "out loud" they are IMO so please before any one shoots me down, I am not stating any of it as fact it is just my take on the situations as I see them. :)

[megan_]

For those that use ecollars regularly, do you find it impacts their free shaping training at all (if you do it)? I do a lot of free shaping to train new behaviours. I've been to a few seminars and have noticed that the vast majority of dogs who are "traditionally" trained were weary of making a mistake (ie they didn't try new things to get a reward, they sat and wItrd for their owner to tell them what to do. If they were unsure, they would try it very apprehensively). I don't think it would make a difference if they'd been zapped once or twice, but if it was regular I would expect it to have an impact.?

[JulesP]

For those that use ecollars regularly, do you find it impacts their free shaping training at all (if you do it)? I do a lot of free shaping to train new behaviours. I've been to a few seminars and have noticed that the vast majority of dogs who are "traditionally" trained were weary of making a mistake (ie they didn't try new things to get a reward, they sat and wItrd for their owner to tell them what to do. If they were unsure, they would try it very apprehensively). I don't think it would make a difference if they'd been zapped once or twice, but if it was regular I would expect it to have an impact.?

That might be the nature of the dogs rather than the training. Out of my 5 border collies, Amber is the only one that will offer behaviors and they have all been trained the same.

[teekay]

Mya has an E collar to stop her from escaping. My hubby has accidentally been shocked by it when we were testing the fence and yes it does hurt. BUT if the alternative is being shot by the local farmer I would rather Mya be hurt for a split second (and it really did not take her long to learn with the training we followed too, I would say she has probably been shocked 4 or 5 times in 3 years) than lose her life.

In all honesty though, to say the dog feels a 'vibration' is a bit of an understatement.

Yes I think you're talking about invisible fencing which is different to an e-collar, usually less adjustable and more of a shock. Try a remote controlled e-collar - many of them are adjustable by less than 1% per increment and the level that my dog can feel, I can't feel and most people I have tried it on can't feel. I have felt it up to the highest level, the higher levels are like an electric fence type zap but I still wouldn't call it pain although definitely not pleasant. The levels most people use on dogs are more of an annoyance, almost a tickle. I know when I have tried it on Lola, she looks more like its a mild annoyance than a pain.

With the invisible fences, I have had limited experience but it hasn't been positive so far and I personally would choose a plain electric fence that the dog can see, over the invisible fence. I met some people who had to put their dogs in the ute to take them through the front gate because the dogs were so fearful to go through due to the invisible fence system they had, which was a cheap one on ebay. I think quality does make a difference too and you would want something that is adjustable in level of stim to suit the dog its being used on.

Oh right, I've never tried an e collar then (thankfully never needed one) I didn't realise they had different settings. That makes sense. :)

Just to clarify the 'invisible fence' we have is in addition to a normal fence so she does have a visual barrier as well. It has been a godsend. :)

[fuzzy82]

I find it ridiculous when trainers say prong collars and e-collars "don't hurt". Of course they do, that's how they work. I've seen them used, I know how to use them, they are designed to cause pain and discomfort. Balanced/traditional trainers saying they don't hurt is as ridiculous as reward based training zealots saying "punishment doesn't work" and that's why you shouldn't use it.

Positive punishment works because it's aversive to the dog, they don't like it. It's not because the timing is so great that it fixes behaviour, it's because it hurts or causes discomfort, the dog pairs the discomfort/pain with the behaviour and doesn't repeat it.

[Lollipup]

For those that use ecollars regularly, do you find it impacts their free shaping training at all (if you do it)? I do a lot of free shaping to train new behaviours. I've been to a few seminars and have noticed that the vast majority of dogs who are "traditionally" trained were weary of making a mistake (ie they didn't try new things to get a reward, they sat and wItrd for their owner to tell them what to do. If they were unsure, they would try it very apprehensively). I don't think it would make a difference if they'd been zapped once or twice, but if it was regular I would expect it to have an impact.?

Haven't used e-collars a lot on Chester, but I have used corrections on him regularly and have found he is still really active in offering new behaviours as soon as we start training. He has learnt how to learn I guess, and so he knows when we start clicker training or shaping that I want him to try new things - he loves it. I think it does depend on the dog though too

[Sparassidae]

I find it ridiculous when trainers say prong collars and e-collars "don't hurt".

I guess that depends upon how you define "hurt".

Technically, they do work because they hurt. But hurting just means something is uncomfortable or causing injury. A head collar causes discomfort, so it hurts. I could go on, but it's not needed.

[Luke GSP]

I find it ridiculous when trainers say prong collars and e-collars "don't hurt". Of course they do, that's how they work. I've seen them used, I know how to use them, they are designed to cause pain and discomfort. Balanced/traditional trainers saying they don't hurt is as ridiculous as reward based training zealots saying "punishment doesn't work" and that's why you shouldn't use it.

Positive punishment works because it's aversive to the dog, they don't like it. It's not because the timing is so great that it fixes behaviour, it's because it hurts or causes discomfort, the dog pairs the discomfort/pain with the behaviour and doesn't repeat it.

If you "knew how to use them" you would understand that there are many different ways of using them than old fashioned positive punishment, "the dog has done wrong so shock it!" mentality, in fact I have never seen one used as a positive punishment.

Most of the e collar training that I have seen is to train a dog to repeat a desirable behaviour, not to take an undesireable one and teach the dog not to repeat it. but as I said i have never seen one used as a positive punishment.

Also, whilst on the subject of "pain and discomfort" do you not think that most training has a level of discomfort and possible pain (depending on the sensitivity of the animal?) Pain and discomfort can be far more than physical. Just putting an animal under pressure to learn a behaviour for a treat exerts a level of discomfort and yes "pain" albeit mental :) hence why IMO you need to have a strategy to relieve the pressure should you find the animal stuck.

An e collar used correctly would exert no more measurable "pain or discomfort" than any other method, Have a look in to e collar trained dogs that have been trained correctly, an awfull lot of them don't look like they are suffering discomfort to me. In fact I have seen most dogs display a much higher avoidance behaviour to an e collar on vibrate(which is much like a mobile phone vibrating) than they do to a correctly set stim.

Basically the wrong tool, applied to the wrong dog, in an incorrect manner, and the wrong situation will at best not work, and at worst damage the dogs long term development, alternatively the right tool, applied to the right animal, correctly, in the right situation willl work!

The trick is to be open minded enough to know when the tools at your disposal, in this situation are the wrong ones, for the animal your dealing with and consequently the knowledge of what to do is outside of your current knowledge. (please note that this last sentence is not "aimed" at anyone in particular just a general belief that I hold IMO

Edited August 7, 2012 by Luke GSP

[Lollipup]

An e collar used correctly would exert no more measurable "pain or discomfort" than any other method, Have a look in to e collar trained dogs that have been trained correctly, an awfull lot of them don't look like they are suffering discomfort to me. In fact I have seen most dogs display a much higher avoidance behaviour to an e collar on vibrate(which is much like a mobile phone vibrating) than they do to a correctly set stim.

oh yes, Lola hates the vibration, has a real reaction to it which made me feel terrible for doing it! Yet with the stim, she just pays attention to it, doesn't react nearly as highly to it. She finds the vibration more aversive.