Agility Training - What To Do

[fuzzy82]

There is only one agility club near me. I did beginner's agility there last year with my oldest dog, just as something fun to do, didn't really know anything about agility at the time.

I have since done the Susan Garrett Contact course with my youngest, and I want to start agility classes with him, but the way the club trains is completely different to the SG approach. For example, the club does very little foundation training with the contacts, we did some plank work for two sessions, then straight on all of the equipment, while with SG we would work on foundations for about 10 weeks before seeing any real equipment and then only start with the a-frame; the club does 2o2o without a target, while SG does use a target. The club lets any dog go over the seesaw after 2-3 sessions, then if it shows some hesitation they do a little work on that after it's already doing full equipment, while SG has loads of games to get the dog comfortable with the seesaw before letting it actually tip and expecting the dog to go over it.

So the differences are pretty significant. I'm not an experienced handler or anything, so it's sort of hard to tell them I want to do my own thing when they have instructors who have years and years of experience doing it their way. If I'd already won loads doing my own thing it would be a lot easier to say I want to do things my own way....

What would you do?

[FalconRange]

Talk to the instructor/s and see how flexible they are. Explain your situation and goals. Even if they might allow you to do some work on equipment after others have finished so you can do it the way you are happy with. Don't feel forced to do it their way.

Edited August 4, 2012 by FalconRange

[**Super_Dogs**]

I have just recently completed a beginner course. This is my second agility dog and this dog I decided I to trained contacts using SG method. I agree the club training method differers, for example no target.

I think what you need to remember these course are catered for people doing agility for the first time and a lot of people do not continue on after this course. So 10 weeks of foundation work people would drop out!

I started foundation training long before we started the beginner course. So by the time we got to the beginner course my girl knew her end contact position without the actual target.

My recommendation is to work on you foundation skills at home and start the beginner course when you think you dog is ready to start on the equipment.

Also, you can pick up cheap seesaws so you can work on this also at home.

[Podengo]

Just mention it to them! I run the introductory agility class at my club, and help out with the next level up and we do have a set way of teaching gear for people who are totally new to agility... We would like to use 2x2 weave to teach weaving but it's a little beyond most people... BUT if someone knows about the method and wants to use it we are very excited to help them out and give full instruction. We will also mention it to people who may be new, but have very driven dogs. The way us trainers train our own dogs is different to how we train *most* people at the club, because *most* people don't want to put in months of foundation. Our 8-week long foundation course has no gear in it apart from tunnels and hurdles with no bars, so people are pretty anxious to get onto some real gear when they go up, and if you are denying people from the "sexy" side of agility, they lose interest pretty quickly. So yeah, mention to your trainers what you have been doing - they should be understanding!!

[Kavik]

Where are you up to with the contact course? The course is now up to week 11 and only now needing to use equipment (if you are up to that! we aren't!) so you can do all the other stuff at home and maybe just explain to them at the club that when it is your turn that you want to just do a little bit on the contact equipment. If the club has any SG people in it, they will understand, and if you have been there for a while most of the time they will give you leeway to do what you want if you show that you know what you are doing.

The only thing I see being a problem at my own club is getting the A-Frame down to the low 3 foot height for the first few A-Frame lessons.

[fuzzy82]

Thanks everyone, I guess I need to email them and ask... They are familiar with SG, as they use 2 x 2 for the weaves and crate games.

Kavik, we're still in module 2, still working on getting the nose touches right. Have done most of the body awareness though. I realised my mechanics for the nose touches have been off and need to take a few steps back and get a nose touch without scooping. I've also taken a few weeks off from doing much of anything because I started canine freestyle with my oldest dog and I was getting frustrated with the lack of progress with the nose touches, so we needed some time to just work on fun tricks.

I'm not sure how I'll go with the low A-frame either, or the seesaw. When I did the beginner's agility with my oldest dog last year she went over the seesaw fine the first time, then started showing more and more hesitation as she realised it would move under her, and only then did the instructor put a box under the end of it, but they still let it tip part way and my dog didn't like it at all.

Not really sure how I'll go with that, because beginners, intermediate and advanced all train on the same night at the same time, they just take turns on the equipment, and when the classes are finished it's all put away and people go home. So to be able to do anything I'd need to somehow be able to do my stuff in the few minutes on and off when the equipment isn't being used, which means moving tables in under the seesaw, work for a few minutes, then move the tables away and let a class use it.

Meh.

[Kavik]

I'm still working on nose targets too - my dog initially wanted to put his chin on my hand instead of his nose when moving to 6 o'clock! Getting improvement there though, almost ready to put it on plank/stairs. I got really frustrated with nose touches for a while too.

If you can get ahold of a seesaw for at home, it would make that part so much easier - I don't know how you will get to do that at club! I have a seesaw (still need to get all the different sized tables organised though - need to be surfaced and painted, so have only done the plank flat) . Once you get the targeting in place, you should at least be able to do bang game and elevator game on the equipment at the club as that doesn't require them to move any tables or other equipment for you.

ETA: wait a minute the bang game doesn't need the target! So you can do that one straight away.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Kavik

[megan_]

For the see saw, the bang game is a really good way of creating value for the bang

[J...]

There is only one agility club near me. I did beginner's agility there last year with my oldest dog, just as something fun to do, didn't really know anything about agility at the time.

I have since done the Susan Garrett Contact course with my youngest, and I want to start agility classes with him, but the way the club trains is completely different to the SG approach. For example, the club does very little foundation training with the contacts, we did some plank work for two sessions, then straight on all of the equipment, while with SG we would work on foundations for about 10 weeks before seeing any real equipment and then only start with the a-frame; the club does 2o2o without a target, while SG does use a target. The club lets any dog go over the seesaw after 2-3 sessions, then if it shows some hesitation they do a little work on that after it's already doing full equipment, while SG has loads of games to get the dog comfortable with the seesaw before letting it actually tip and expecting the dog to go over it.

So the differences are pretty significant. I'm not an experienced handler or anything, so it's sort of hard to tell them I want to do my own thing when they have instructors who have years and years of experience doing it their way. If I'd already won loads doing my own thing it would be a lot easier to say I want to do things my own way....

What would you do?

Hi Fuzzy,

5 years ago I was in a very similar situation - not a lot of options on the ground, but picking up as much as I could from the internet/DVDs and reading whatever I could. I chose the find my own way type route and to be honest I haven't looked back. What made my choice easy was seeing the big improvements in my dog for those early changes, and those results sent me in search of even more information.

Sadly me choosing my own route pissed a few instructors off at that first club, and several wouldn't allow me to train the way I wanted to train. I ended up changing clubs and learnt quite a lot from that change in the early days. I've pretty much grown out of that one as well, but they do let me do my own thing as long as I keep my mouth shut about stuff I don't agree with Most of my training I do on my own these days.

Find out if your club is willing to negotiate - I just work on those things I need to at home, and take it out and about before I even try it at training. Don't ever feel you should do something their way if it feels wrong or you don't understand why. I'm doing the contact course with SG as a result of the shitty "point and pray" training we got in the early days, the one thing I never questioned anyone on.

Ask some of your instructors at the club you train with, you might find that one of them is doing the SG stuff at home behind the scenes but follows the club training guidelines at training? These days it is a lot easier go your own route if needed - especially with the number of online courses and DVD resources available.

[DeltaCharlie]

I would almost go so far as to say that the majority of regularly trialling QLDers are actually using an SG/GD style of handling. It is certainly something that they will be well and truly familiar with and I imagine would be more than willing to help you out. Chances are they have already done similar things to train their dogs.

Big generalisation coming- but many people will do such a beginners course, bumble through with their dog and get addicted, then learn how to do it properly with their second dog. Its how I did it, Cody got me hooked and taught me the basics, then Delta taught me the finer details, now Whip is taking my knowledge and training further still :)

When I started training Delta I knew in my mind what I wanted to do but like most clubs the focus for beginners was maintaining interest in new people and promoting participation, not on foundations. One of the trainers had a BC who was only a week younger than Delta and was going to be starting his foundations too so she actually arranged to meet me at training an hour earlier and we set up things how we wanted them to be done. Then I trained Charlie during the class time or did simple jumping drills with Delta depending on how tired she was. Perhaps that could be an option for you, if a club member who knows what you are trying to achieve is prepared to meet you, even 15-30mins earlier and do some foundation work before class begins.

If the club is in no way prepared to accomodate you, find a different club :) I notice you are in Brisbane, there will be plenty around I am sure.

[Kavik]

Finally put the nose touch on the plank and stairs yesterday :laugh: So we are on our way (even if we are, what, 10 weeks behind :laugh: )

[aussielover]

Lots of clubs structure their classes to cater for the first timer. As others have said the foundation work, though important for serious agility people, is not "fun" for the average person and in some cases beyond the desire and ability of the average or first time dog owner to commit to.

I think this approach is pretty understandable. This way people who may have lost interest in the first few weeks become interested in agility and plenty do go on to trial later. I'd say about 70% of the group I started training with as a beginner have now gone on to trial and become involved with agility which is pretty good imo and a good way to keep people involved and interested in the sport. In contrast, only 1/10 people in our obedience class has gone on to trial (Rally O) and plenty have dropped out completely (I only go occaisonally myself!).

Of course we would all do things differently with our second dog if we were to have one, but I doubt so many would have stuck with agility if we had only done foundation exercises for the first few weeks. To be fair, the instructors do give beginners "homework" like groundwork and contact work to do at home as well.

I'd have a chat with your club, perhaps you could join in only some parts of the class, while you are still working on the basics at home? I'm sure the club would be understanding.

Otherwise just train the foundation work at home first and don't turn up to the club classes until you think you're ready.

[fuzzy82]

After about a week I finally got a response to my email. In my email to them I explained that I have done an online course with SG, and that I would like to train SG style. I also pointed out the difference between how the club trains and how SG trains, because I wasn't sure how familiar they were with it.

The email response I got back had a bit of an attitude. First they said there was no way they could accommodate it, and they don't think any club would, because I would need help from the instructors to change the height of the equipment and would need to be supervised while using the equipment (which is fair enough). Then they said "we are fully aware of who SG is" and pointed out that they have met her multiple times, and then at the end of the email said something about I had insinuated that they don't train the dogs to go over equipment "properly" and they are "concerned" about my comments to that effect.

I re-read my original email to them, I also had hubby read it, and neither of us can see how I was criticising their methods. All I was doing was pointing out how SG trains differently and asking them to accommodate a different method.

I replied and explained that I never intended to criticise them and said I fully understand that they cater to people who would get bored doing foundation work for weeks. But I guess their defensive attitude means I won't be training with them.

I wouldn't even need to do weeks of foundation work. I can train the contact behaviour at home and have it ready to go for the course, but I don't have full size equipment at home so I would need to go a bit slower to start with on the equipment.

I actually built my own seesaw this weekend, so I can train that SG style, but I don't have room for an A-frame or dogwalk.

Edited August 13, 2012 by fuzzy82

[megan_]

I can sort of understand the attitude. When I want to do something differently I discreetly say "I've been taught that a bit differently, is that okay?". Pointing put how the club doesn't follow SG's methods might seem like a criticism to them.

Can you go to club and just modify the exercises you do (eg they run over a a frame, you just do the end behaviour with a target)?

With my next dog, I'll only go to a club to use their equipment and get my dog used to the setting - I won't actually follow their training plans.

[fuzzy82]

I can kind of understand it too, but only from the perspective of how some people think if someone wants to do something differently it's somehow a form of criticism of their methods. Had I thought they would be that sensitive I would have worded my email very carefully, rather than jumping right into it.

They basically said I can't use the equipment the way I want, because it can't be adjusted to accommodate me, and I know from the last class we did there that the A-frame is set quite high right from the start.

I have found a different club that seems to take things slower, so I emailed them and practically grovelled while asking if they would allow me to start out on really low equipment.

[RubyStar]

Do clubs not have foundation classes that use low equipment? I don't see what the issue is if that is the case. I am certainly no experienced agility trainer, far from it, but I have started adult foundation classes with my mum's dog but have spent time before going to class getting foundations in place, like the beginnings of contacts. The instructor is catering to the class as they need to, and showed everyone how to walk their dogs over the very very low dogwalk and spoke to them about the 2o2o contact method and how some people like to backchain in. Instead of waiting in line with everyone else and do the exercises they're doing, I work my way around the baby equipment that is set up and do my own thing. The instructor is ok with that and if I need help with something, I will ask for help. I'm there to get handling help as that is my biggest trouble, but as for training foundations, I know how I want to do it in a roundabout way, so am going to utilise class time best I can with access to the baby equipment instead of doing what everyone else is doing. Once we move up and start sequencing things together is when I will join back into the class.

[fuzzy82]

Do clubs not have foundation classes that use low equipment? I don't see what the issue is if that is the case. I am certainly no experienced agility trainer, far from it, but I have started adult foundation classes with my mum's dog but have spent time before going to class getting foundations in place, like the beginnings of contacts. The instructor is catering to the class as they need to, and showed everyone how to walk their dogs over the very very low dogwalk and spoke to them about the 2o2o contact method and how some people like to backchain in. Instead of waiting in line with everyone else and do the exercises they're doing, I work my way around the baby equipment that is set up and do my own thing. The instructor is ok with that and if I need help with something, I will ask for help. I'm there to get handling help as that is my biggest trouble, but as for training foundations, I know how I want to do it in a roundabout way, so am going to utilise class time best I can with access to the baby equipment instead of doing what everyone else is doing. Once we move up and start sequencing things together is when I will join back into the class.

I have found another club that has a foundation class and breaks training into separate classes like that. But the club where I have been training (been doing their advanced obedience geared towards agility), they have nothing like that. The beginner's agility class spends 2-3 sessions on planks, then up on equipment and seesaw. Not full height, but higher than I'd like. They have a slightly smaller than standard seesaw to start out with, but it tips all the way. Ideally I would have liked it to only tip part of the way by putting the end on a table or similar and work up to a full tip. The A-frame they start out with is really high too, no way a dog could get up it unless it runs at it really fast.

[Kavik]

I can see the club's point though, it could have felt that you were criticising how they train. In a club setting it is hard to accomodate everyone and certainly the full on SG style would put off a lot of newcomers who aren't that serious. What I have done is told my club I am doing SG's online contact course and would it be possible to use the lower equipment when I want to put my end behaviour on the equipment, rather than point out any differences with club training. My club is pro SG so the main issue is how to get acess for just that one thing without causing problems with the classes who are using the lower equipment on the night. I already compete so the people in charge know who I am.

The part I am going to struggle with is access to the very low A-Frame that SG wants, that is going to be tricky for all people at at club - 3 ft apex. I am trying to get special permission to put the club's A-Frame down that low as they don't usually put it that low, will try to get everyone who is doing the course to do it at the same time. My club is fine with you doing your own thing, but needing to change the height of contact equipment is much more tricky and will require more negotiation.

[Kavik]

Another option is to get a private lesson with someone who has equipment and explain what you are doing and get access to the lowered equipment that way, and go back to the club when your dog can do the full height equipment. I will consider doing that if it turns out to be too difficult to get access at the club. No point in getting into an argument about it and getting people offside.

[DeltaCharlie]

Do clubs not have foundation classes that use low equipment? I don't see what the issue is if that is the case. I am certainly no experienced agility trainer, far from it, but I have started adult foundation classes with my mum's dog but have spent time before going to class getting foundations in place, like the beginnings of contacts. The instructor is catering to the class as they need to, and showed everyone how to walk their dogs over the very very low dogwalk and spoke to them about the 2o2o contact method and how some people like to backchain in. Instead of waiting in line with everyone else and do the exercises they're doing, I work my way around the baby equipment that is set up and do my own thing. The instructor is ok with that and if I need help with something, I will ask for help. I'm there to get handling help as that is my biggest trouble, but as for training foundations, I know how I want to do it in a roundabout way, so am going to utilise class time best I can with access to the baby equipment instead of doing what everyone else is doing. Once we move up and start sequencing things together is when I will join back into the class.

You are very lucky to be in WA :) They are about 10 years ahead of the rest of Australia when it comes to agility and overseas instructors love visiting you because you are much closer to them in terms of progression. The Eastern states are in general (not saying all clubs or all instructors) a long way behind in their thinking.

One of the biggest differences between WA and the eastern states is the foundation work. I loved participating in your training sessions in the lead up to the Perth nationals as they were a real eye opener for us in the way that training is run. There is a huge emphasis on doing things right from the start, which you have highlighted in your post. Unfortunately most clubs over here push dogs too quickly and the difference is very noticeable when you look at the end product. The most successful dogs on this side of the country belong to experienced people who have done a fair bit of training outside of a club environment rather than following the club training programs. Unlike WA dogs who seem to be successful regardless of whether they go through the club program or a home program as there is not a lot of difference between the 2.

If there was no other influencing factors I would move to WA in a heartbeat purely for the agility training :D