Rspca Puppy Farm Raid On Channel 7

[Sheridan]

While I wouldn't take a dog on terms as described by Dogmate, the questionnaire (or the 3 hour interview that I had) gives information about you. Ethical registered breeders give the third degree because they want to have their pups go to people they can trust, the very best homes. I would be concerned if there was no interview or questionnaire.

[Salukifan]

And sorry, but "never about the cost of the pup"?

I can show you a case lived out right here on this forum where the buyer got all the advice (mostly about not buying a pup of that breed at that time) and went off and got a BYB one. Rationale? It was cheaper.

And if no decent breeder would have sold a pup to that home, no doubt we'd have seen the "snob" argument trotted out again.

[Chris the Rebel Wolf]

Backyard breeders in my eyes account for just as much of the problem as pet shop pups/puppy mills. Of course they are all linked as an issue, but particularly in my region, there are only two pet stores that sell pups, and hundreds of BYB. Working in the pet industry, I see a wide range of owners and breeders and it becomes a real struggle to push the education message into ears that are closed to it... some people will buy any SWF that looks at them cutely and some people will wait months for their special dog. Some people will listen, and some people you can beat your message into with a 2x4 and it still won't hit home.

[Salukifan]

Backyard breeders in my eyes account for just as much of the problem as pet shop pups/puppy mills. Of course they are all linked as an issue, but particularly in my region, there are only two pet stores that sell pups, and hundreds of BYB. Working in the pet industry, I see a wide range of owners and breeders and it becomes a real struggle to push the education message into ears that are closed to it... some people will buy any SWF that looks at them cutely and some people will wait months for their special dog. Some people will listen, and some people you can beat your message into with a 2x4 and it still won't hit home.

I get that but I'm not going to allow ANKC breeder behaviour to be the rationale for BYBs and pet shops to be advocated as appropriate sources of pups.

You don't fix one issue by giving worse alternatives as the solution.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Sheridan]

Backyard breeders in my eyes account for just as much of the problem as pet shop pups/puppy mills. Of course they are all linked as an issue, but particularly in my region, there are only two pet stores that sell pups, and hundreds of BYB. Working in the pet industry, I see a wide range of owners and breeders and it becomes a real struggle to push the education message into ears that are closed to it... some people will buy any SWF that looks at them cutely and some people will wait months for their special dog. Some people will listen, and some people you can beat your message into with a 2x4 and it still won't hit home.

I get that but I'm not going to allow ANKC breeder behaviour to be the rationale for BYBs and pet shops to be advocated as appropriate sources of pups.

You don't fix one issue but giving worse alternatives as the solution.

This.

[dogmate]

I hear and understand what you are saying and its easy for me to comment cause i have baby sat their old dog and new pup when they went on holidays and know how spoilt they are and any breeder wouldnt know this and would be trying to decifer the type of person they are. I think the fact that they swapped and allowed it inside is probably quite a common occurance usual think i'm not letting it inside in my bed whatever then arrives cute bundle of puppy and its totally spoilt and it lives inside and sleeps in the bed. The only point i'm trying to make is that for the average Joe some breeders make the hoops incredibly hard to jump through so this is what i would consider a great home for a dog ended up supporting a puppy farmer. They were quite prepared to wait as long as it took but they wanted the dog to be theirs. In small print on the bottom of this complicated questionaire it states At all times the pup will remain the property of XYZ>>>> Kennels and they will at all times be informed of any veternary treatment and permission will be obtained from XYZ<<< Kennels before any veterinary procedure occurs. Ok i can get that they want to be informed if say the dog has hip dyslpaysia and its having that surgery that important to know whats cropped un in their lines but to obtain permission for the surgery from the breeder is a bit rough. They were concerned mostly that what if they choice the surgery adn the breeder said no. Really i believe if you buy the dog you buy it with all the responsibilities keep in touch with the breeder and let them know of anything that pops up but it should be the owners responsibility to choice the best care for their animal.

I totally hate puppy farmers and the way they treat these precious babies. Someone on here asked why people buy from petshops. I can give an example of someone i know who was trying to do the right thing.

She wanted a GSP pup had not long lost their old GSP at 14.5 years old. They had shown her as a youngster but as their kids wanted to do sport etc they stopped showing. They rang the breeder of their old dog she was no longer breeding but gave her the emails and phone numbers of breeders and i also told her of this website. She sent off 11 emails and didnt hear back from one she phoned breeders some were quite rude as the dog will sleep outside and they both work they got the cold shoulder. They had to fill in questionaires that in once case was 3 double sided pages long. They finally found one person who was sue to have pups later on this year problem was this breeder put all these restrictions on the pup and as my friend said i'm paying for this pup i want to own her outright. The pup wouldnt be in her name she had to send her back to the breeder for 3 litters. All she really wanted was a nice family pet that was of sound body and mind and was possibly looking at the option of showing. After much discussion they went past a pet shop fell in love with a dacshund pup went home and then called the shop back up and went and got her the next day. So they now have a most probably puppy farmed dog thats spoilt rotten who LIVES in the house and goes everywhere with them. Who is the loosers here the breeders who decided to be greedy and want all the rights of the dog they wanted to just be able to love. So i know breeders try to find the best lovig homes for their pups but really some of the restrictins are unrealistic causing people to just go to a pet shop and buy one basically on the spur of the moment but really also by being pushed into it from the breeder.

Dont get me wrong i definately condone puppy farming dreadful practice but breeders als cant make unrealistic expectations on owners. So its never about the cost of the pup IMHO

Wanted a GSP and ended up with a Dachshund.. because the breeds are so similar and all...

And the dog was to sleep outside but the one they got now sleeps inside.. if they'd made that decision up front, they probably could have had the GSP after all.

I love the idea that it's meant to be easy for any buyer to get the dog they want and somehow THAT justifies pet shops selling pups.

Kerist I know families who shouldn't be allowed to keep tadpoles let alone some of the more challenging breeds.

And can I please state for the record that the fact that you've managed to keep a dog of a particular breed alive for a decent period of time does NOT automatically make you a "good" owner for another dog of that breed.

Case in point: Hungarian Vizsla owner in a family known to me. The dog sleeps outside, lives outside and never leaves the yard. Never.

Suriving is not thriving and why any HV breeder would want to place a pup in that situation beats me.

Sorry Dogmate, not having a go at you but most of these kinds of arugments have been floated before and most of them sink with a bit of scrutiny.

[Salukifan]

Dogmate:

I hear and understand what you are saying and its easy for me to comment cause i have baby sat their old dog and new pup when they went on holidays and know how spoilt they are and any breeder wouldnt know this and would be trying to decifer the type of person they are. I think the fact that they swapped and allowed it inside is probably quite a common occurance usual think i'm not letting it inside in my bed whatever then arrives cute bundle of puppy and its totally spoilt and it lives inside and sleeps in the bed. The only point i'm trying to make is that for the average Joe some breeders make the hoops incredibly hard to jump through so this is what i would consider a great home for a dog ended up supporting a puppy farmer. They were quite prepared to wait as long as it took but they wanted the dog to be theirs. In small print on the bottom of this complicated questionaire it states At all times the pup will remain the property of XYZ>>>> Kennels and they will at all times be informed of any veternary treatment and permission will be obtained from XYZ<<< Kennels before any veterinary procedure occurs. Ok i can get that they want to be informed if say the dog has hip dyslpaysia and its having that surgery that important to know whats cropped un in their lines but to obtain permission for the surgery from the breeder is a bit rough. They were concerned mostly that what if they choice the surgery adn the breeder said no. Really i believe if you buy the dog you buy it with all the responsibilities keep in touch with the breeder and let them know of anything that pops up but it should be the owners responsibility to choice the best care for their animal.

Dogmate, I would never suggest for a minute that some ANKC breeders don't have conditions on dogs that are downright ridiculous. But behind a lot of the "breeders are snobs" arguments I hear (and believe me I hear plenty) there's this underlying thought along the lines of "how very dare someone suggest that I'm not a fit owner for their pup".

Well, trot down to the pound and you'll see quite a few dogs that someone thought they were fit to own and they were wrong. And talk to breeders who've had a few sales go wrong and you'll get stories that would curl your hair.

In between outrageous questions and conditions on buyers and "here's my credit card, I want THAT one" is a position where the welfare of pups and the reasonable wants of buyers can be balanced. In my opinion, that will not and should not happen in a situation where pups are housed for the convenience of the retailer rather than as is optimal for their development and where there is no meeting between breeder and buyer AND no ongoing support.

Sorks is free to convince me otherwise but "I got a pup from a petshop and he turned out fine" ain't cutting it so far.

Breeders aren't mind readers and the inside v outside living issue is a big one. When you hear of a Whippet who's a bunch of bones and the owner says (in the middle of winter) "I have no idea why he's losing weight- he HAS a kennel", you know that buyer didn't get the Whippets 101 talk from a breeder. Sad when the dog is losing weight because the owner was never told about the fact that they have minimal body fat and need to be coated. But hey, I can see buyers now - "no one's going to tell ME that my dog has to live inside or sissy coats on"..

Edited for sense

Edited August 3, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Holmesy]

Very good points Haredown Whippets.

Maybe some registered breeders might be a little bit over the top when it comes to choosing forever homes for their litters, but it all boils down to how confident that the breeder is that the potential buyer will be able to provide the care and life that their little baby deserves or needs. This is in the best interest of the dog so that it doesn't get dumped at the pound 6 months down the road, or suffers due to the would-be owners not knowing the best care for the breed etc.

It is a fine balance between it being "too hard" to get a dog from a reputable breeder, and "too easy" where the buyer can jump in and buy without any idea about the commitment that they have made, or responsibility that they have to ensure that the dog lives a healthy and happy life.

The questioning and the interviewing by breeders is a good way to ensure that the buyer thinks about everything that would be involved with caring for that particular breed. Recently I had an application for a Mastiff pup from a breeder be rejected and it really made me have a good long think about whether or not that I could provide an adequate environment for one as they are a very big dog. After a lot of thought and even more research, I have decided to get one. It did make me think though. If all would-be dog owners had a good think about the commitment required when getting a dog, before getting one, the pounds and rescue groups would have a lot fewer dogs to deal with.

Pet shop puppies mostly rely on impulse shoppers. Animals should not be bought on impulse

[BJean]

Currently the wheels and cogs are moving slowly but soon- hopefully within next 2 yrs the law will be changed and NO live animals will be permitted in pet shops (I think they are still allowing things like hermit crabs/mice/guinea pigs and birds) any exotic birds or reptiles you need a permit to sell anyway and a permit to keep.

Next the internet and other print media will also be changed to STOP advertising of dogs and cats unless from registered breeders. This I beleive will make a huge difference.

I can't believe shiite like this is still bandied around.

'Registered Breeder'...

and hello freedom of information, or rather goodbye.

The other solution which has been bantered around is a compulsory pre purchase dog owner course like is done in the USA, with people having to complete this they may think twice about an impulse buy. As cats and dogs who are coming into homes via rescue groups/RSPCA and pet stores are required to be desexed so irresponsible breeding will dwindle.

oh my what a sad day for simple liberty

[Chris the Rebel Wolf]

Backyard breeders in my eyes account for just as much of the problem as pet shop pups/puppy mills. Of course they are all linked as an issue, but particularly in my region, there are only two pet stores that sell pups, and hundreds of BYB. Working in the pet industry, I see a wide range of owners and breeders and it becomes a real struggle to push the education message into ears that are closed to it... some people will buy any SWF that looks at them cutely and some people will wait months for their special dog. Some people will listen, and some people you can beat your message into with a 2x4 and it still won't hit home.

I get that but I'm not going to allow ANKC breeder behaviour to be the rationale for BYBs and pet shops to be advocated as appropriate sources of pups.

You don't fix one issue by giving worse alternatives as the solution.

Oh I absolutely agree. I was pointing out that not all problem dogs come from pet shops/puppy mills, some from BYB. We need a broader method of reaching people that addresses more aspects of the problem, eg it would be easy for somebody who had heard not to buy from a pet store to find an internet, newspaper add or word of mouth, buy from a backyard breeder, and acquire a dog on impulse with little to no research or advice given on the breed.

[Salukifan]

Backyard breeders in my eyes account for just as much of the problem as pet shop pups/puppy mills. Of course they are all linked as an issue, but particularly in my region, there are only two pet stores that sell pups, and hundreds of BYB. Working in the pet industry, I see a wide range of owners and breeders and it becomes a real struggle to push the education message into ears that are closed to it... some people will buy any SWF that looks at them cutely and some people will wait months for their special dog. Some people will listen, and some people you can beat your message into with a 2x4 and it still won't hit home.

I get that but I'm not going to allow ANKC breeder behaviour to be the rationale for BYBs and pet shops to be advocated as appropriate sources of pups.

You don't fix one issue by giving worse alternatives as the solution.

Oh I absolutely agree. I was pointing out that not all problem dogs come from pet shops/puppy mills, some from BYB. We need a broader method of reaching people that addresses more aspects of the problem, eg it would be easy for somebody who had heard not to buy from a pet store to find an internet, newspaper add or word of mouth, buy from a backyard breeder, and acquire a dog on impulse with little to no research or advice given on the breed.

And in the meantime, while we educate, we need to ACT to protect the welfare of animals used to produce "products" for pet shops to sell.

Personally, I'm not in favour of restricting breeding only to ANKC members but anyone who does breed needs to be forced to comply with reasonable standards of welfare for their dogs.

Treating them like units of production rather than living breathing creatures with physical and social needs simply does NOT cut it for me and I don't care who you are.

[Little Gifts]

I have often wondered if puppy farmers originally started out as BYB and realised how little work they had to do to make a lot of money? Get some FTGH dogs and they do all the work for you! Call me cynical but even cattle, sheep and diary farmers know that healthy and well bred livestock will make them more money. They also drench and take other preventative measures to ensure their stock stays healthy and monitor their environment and food supply to ensure their wellbeing. So why are puppy 'farmers' allowed to neglect companion animals so dreadfully? How many need to die or be euthanised after being saved before enough is enough in this country? It is simply not appropriate to breed companion animals using a bulk breeding or farming approach. How many puppy farms can anyone name that operate appropriately to the animals they are breeding?

As for breeders making it hard to buy a dog I have absolutely no issue with that. It might make people realise how special owning a live animal is and how it will change their lives. I filled out a very long application (offering referees) and had a home check before being even able to foster a dog. The reason this kind of scrutiny is now demanded by breeders or rescue groups that actually care about what happens to their precious dogs is that there are so many people out there now who either don't have a clue about how to meet a companion animals needs or simply don't care. That doesn't mean they wouldn't call themselves an animal lover either!

And if anyone doesn't understand why some people are so passionate about this problem then I suggest they contact one of the DOL members who do the pound lists and see if they can go around their local pound with one of the volunteer assessors. Look at the number of beautiful dogs with pleading eyes facing death and tell me this issue does not exist or does not need to be acted on immediately.

[Rebanne]

I hear and understand what you are saying and its easy for me to comment cause i have baby sat their old dog and new pup when they went on holidays and know how spoilt they are and any breeder wouldnt know this and would be trying to decifer the type of person they are. I think the fact that they swapped and allowed it inside is probably quite a common occurance usual think i'm not letting it inside in my bed whatever then arrives cute bundle of puppy and its totally spoilt and it lives inside and sleeps in the bed. The only point i'm trying to make is that for the average Joe some breeders make the hoops incredibly hard to jump through so this is what i would consider a great home for a dog ended up supporting a puppy farmer. They were quite prepared to wait as long as it took but they wanted the dog to be theirs. In small print on the bottom of this complicated questionaire it states At all times the pup will remain the property of XYZ>>>> Kennels and they will at all times be informed of any veternary treatment and permission will be obtained from XYZ<<< Kennels before any veterinary procedure occurs. Ok i can get that they want to be informed if say the dog has hip dyslpaysia and its having that surgery that important to know whats cropped un in their lines but to obtain permission for the surgery from the breeder is a bit rough. They were concerned mostly that what if they choice the surgery adn the breeder said no. Really i believe if you buy the dog you buy it with all the responsibilities keep in touch with the breeder and let them know of anything that pops up but it should be the owners responsibility to choice the best care for their animal.

While the terms were unacceptable your friends weren't prepared to wait as long as it took as they did go and buy a pet shop puppy.

[Issy]

I don't know if the BYB has changed from the past 20-30 years ago or so because when I was younger the only way my family knew how to buy a pet was from the paper. Back then there was no internet. My family got our first puppy Sheba (a GSD) from a BYB when I was a teen and from what I remember the owner only had few dogs (like 3 or so not counting the puppies for sale). Anyways, long story short she lived for 16 years and died of old age. Every few years we took her to get vaccinated and checked up ( I do recall she did have those little flies that would always try eat at her ears and we'd use cream on them in the summer), other than that she was never ill or developed health problems.

During this time I also bought a shit-zu for a family friend back then, who also lived until 15 or so with no health issues. I know this is only two examples but until I actually bought my purebred pup (I wanted to show and was interested) I thought you only bought purebred if you wanted to show, otherwise you just buy one by other means. I really didn't know any better and I guess not having bad experiences before just didn't know otherwise. I know now those dogs probably weren't purebred at all but you just believe the breeders, since it is hard to disprove when they are just puppies.

So my guess is people just don't know any better. Recently two family friends of mine bought new houses and one of them brought a chihuahua from a pet store (which told them the dogs came from purebred breeders apparently) and I sat down with him and had a chat for like 30 mins about where these dogs come from, puppy farms etc and he was rather shocked. The other family friends I haven't had a chance to talk to yet and I'm hoping they bought from a reputable breeder but I doubt it

It is all about educating. I really don't know how else this can be resolved or other ways to inform people but the more people we can get to, the better.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Issy

[Mason_Gibbs]

Tess really made me sad because if my lab had been mistreated he would shut down like Tess ( he goes like that in storms or if smoke alarm goes off) he also looks a lot like Tess so it really upset me. Lucy also made me cry because the poor thing could hardly walk, if you watched te one scene it looks like there could be something wrong with her hips too poor poor dogs

[RiverStar-Aura]

I actually didn't mind filling out a questionnaire from Kirah's breeder -- I felt it was a way for her to get to know me and vice versa. I also look at it from a breeders' perspective -- the puppies are living, breathing animals who they've taken great care in introducing into the world. Of course they want what's best.

I see it in a similar light to child adoption. There is a huge process to go though before you're even considered as a potential guardian so why should it be any different for dogs/cats/horses/etc? And better yet, where did owners get this "I'm entitled to have one of your puppies" attitude from? Just because you're out searching for xx breed, doesn't mean a breeder is obligated to sell you one of their puppies. The puppies belong to them and they are within their rights to say no, regardless of their reason. Buyers need to accept this and not take it so personally, which I do understand is a difficult concept to get one's head around. No one likes being told no about anything.

There's definitely no easy solution to this; we live in such a throw-away society that a lot of people don't perceive dogs as being forever. My two dogs are my life and even when I'm at work, I'm often thinking about what they're doing all day and how I can spoil them when I get home. I could never abandon them or dump them at a shelter and I don't understand how anyone could. All Zeus and Kirah ask from me is love and food, which I give willingly in exchange for their love, loyalty and everything else.

The sad thing is that there will always be monsters in this world, but if we can stop them one at a time, we might get there eventually. I can always hold out hope!

Edited August 3, 2012 by RiverStar-Aura