zeebie Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 What would a pure poodle cost out of interest? A good quality impecable breeding line toy poodle/miniature would cost around the $1200 upwards, STandards more, for showing and breeding, for pet only not on full register and agree to desex $500 - $1000, with breeding rights price is negotiable but dog has to be shown and usually only goes to 'known'home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeebie Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) As usual this is a story that has resurfaced again after a long and protracted leagal case It is happening all the time everywhere and these people know that there are other people out there wanting a product and so they supply the goods, if every single person was educated properly to understand NOT to buy from any dog breeder unless they have the proper certification eventually this business would stop Compulsory microchipping of all dogs sold is not working as the animals are falling through the cracks as prospective buyers are ignorant to fact that all dogs must by law now be M/C pre sale. I know of one case which has been prosecuted and the person is no longer allowed to keep or breed dogs and yet this person has circumvented the law by organising a'friend' to use her property to continue breeding and selling dogs from???? when this came to light and was investigated suddenly all the animals mysteriously disappeared prior to the raid occurring and no one could be found to be acting illegally. so now the bitches get spread around a number of people and a tuperware/Avon system is set up where they have a party network in place and different ones advertise in different places so as not to arouse suspicion, and absolutely nothing can be done because there is no real 'proof' Edited August 2, 2012 by zeebie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDJ Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 ok - I am possibly going to get shot for this - so can I ask that people read (and believe) my disclaimer before yelling :) Disclaimer - I have NEVER purchased a dog at a pet shop, I have NEVER bred a litter, and believe that pet shops should immediately be banned from selling any dogs or cats, and the people in the show last night should immediately and permanently lose all rights to own any animal in future. And I understand the reasons for the below points However, I believe that in some ways the purebred breeders do themselves no favours when it comes to encouraging people to buy from a reputable source. Remember, many "Joe Blow' people who want a puppy don't have the exposure that people on this forum do. When a decision is made to look at getting a puppy, they have 2 scenarios : Reputable source - not always easy to find the governing body. Try googling 'poodle for sale' and see what comes up (and most people think SACA relates to cricket, not dogs) - who is 'reputable'? - hard enough when you know what to look for - check out many breeders websites. The first thing you are faced with is a 20 question interview that makes it sound harder to get a puppy than adopt a child from Africa - unless it is a popular breed, you may have to wait 6 months to get a pup. Even longer if you want a specific colour or gender - many purebreds are quite extreme when looking at show stock. Some people dont realise that a clipped Shitzu looks like their neighbours SWF. They just see a lot of coat Pet Shop/internet - you pick the puppy 'off the shelf'. So if the family makes a decision to buy a pup, then they often have it at home within the week - the person at the shop tells them it comes from a 'nice family'. Why would they not believe it? - after all, those scary places are somewhere else and the pup in the shop looks clean and healthy What is the fix? - nothing simple. Rather than try and ban pet shops selling live animals (wish it happened but dont hold your breathe), why cant we look at making it a legal requirement for all pet shops to need to note the full name and address of the breeder. Then if you go to the shop and it is bred by "H&R Smith in Queensland", and you are in SA, the buyer will at least know that it was not a local pup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeebie Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Reputable source - not always easy to find the governing body. Try googling 'poodle for sale' and see what comes up (and most people think SACA relates to cricket, not dogs) - who is 'reputable'? - hard enough when you know what to look for - check out many breeders websites. The first thing you are faced with is a 20 question interview that makes it sound harder to get a puppy than adopt a child from Africa - unless it is a popular breed, you may have to wait 6 months to get a pup. Even longer if you want a specific colour or gender - many purebreds are quite extreme when looking at show stock. Some people dont realise that a clipped Shitzu looks like their neighbours SWF. They just see a lot of coat Pet Shop/internet - you pick the puppy 'off the shelf'. So if the family makes a decision to buy a pup, then they often have it at home within the week - the person at the shop tells them it comes from a 'nice family'. Why would they not believe it? - after all, those scary places are somewhere else and the pup in the shop looks clean and healthy Currently the wheels and cogs are moving slowly but soon- hopefully within next 2 yrs the law will be changed and NO live animals will be permitted in pet shops (I think they are still allowing things like hermit crabs/mice/guinea pigs and birds) any exotic birds or reptiles you need a permit to sell anyway and a permit to keep. Next the internet and other print media will also be changed to STOP advertising of dogs and cats unless from registered breeders.This I beleive will make a huge difference. The other solution which has been bantered around is a compulsory pre purchase dog owner course like is done in the USA, with people having to complete this they may think twice about an impulse buy. As cats and dogs who are coming into homes via rescue groups/RSPCA and pet stores are required to be desexed so irresponsible breeding will dwindle. However everytime there is a movie/TV show/celebrity/major dog event featured and focussing on a particular breed we see this huge public interest in owning that breed (after Red dog every one went mad to own a kelpie and it had to be "just like the star - tricks and all " Seriously though even many breeders need to 'vet' potential purchasers to ensure they understand the breed and the demands etc. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) - check out many breeders websites. The first thing you are faced with is a 20 question interview that makes it sound harder to get a puppy than adopt a child from Africa - unless it is a popular breed, you may have to wait 6 months to get a pup. Even longer if you want a specific colour or gender Sorry for picking out just two items from your comments (all good for discussion, even if I don't always agree, so no yelling :) ). I think your comparison between a breeder's screening and adopting a child from Africa is extreme, and takes the focus off what's helpful for breeder, dog and consumer. Consumer education would include the fact that screening via interview questions protects all three. And, in fact, the 'educated' consumer would best approach the breeder with relevant information at the ready. My approach to registered breeders was to first email them a summary of that basic information. Not surprising that I've been well received as a potential owner and, as a result, all our pet tibbies have been ex-showdogs, and Aus Champions. Biggest problem :) was trying to get the breeders to take any money at all....the best of pet homes was all they wanted. Yep, they were made to take it. Consumer education would also include the fact that quality can be worth waiting for, from a quality source. My breed of interest is a less common one and I've experienced what quality means (in health, appearance, socialization and nature), and have cheerfully waited for some months until the right match came up. In every case, the breeder's match proved spot- on. Over the years, I've passed on my experiences and method for adopting from registered breeders to numbers of good people. They went the same route....and had very happy adoptions. Not to mention some awfully happy pets! How did I find out, many, many years ago, that I could go direct to a registered breeder and how to find them? RSPCA Qld, sickened by puppy farm consequences, put that in one of their newsletters.....and gave the phone no for the Canine Control Council of Q'ld. Added to make sure you knew exactly the circumstances in which the dogs were kept. To this day, I've kept a copy of that article which was about the horrors they'd seen in raids, along with graphic pictures. Edited August 2, 2012 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Yes, sometimes it is hard getting through the registered breeder interview but so worth it in the end. They ask the tough questions because, unlike a pet shop or BYB or puppy farm, they care where their puppies end up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbie_tabbie Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 BDJ, I get what you are saying and yes it is too easy to buy from a pet shop. If a family waits 6 months for a dog it usually means theyve thought it through properly. As for the breeders questions, again I think people do need to know what is expected of them. They will pass and be allowed to buy a pup if they are suitable for the breed. I know people who complain because a rescue turned them down for a certain dog. I try and explain they are looking for the best match for them and the dog. I know if my girl had gone to a family who wanted an 'easy' dog she'd have boomeranged right back....again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDJ Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 thanks for not yelling Mita :) I know why there are questionaires, and see the value in them. My point was that Joe Public does not necessarily understand. So they either decide it is too hard, think that if they say the wrong thing they will be deemed unsuitable, or think it is unnecessary. They then go to a petshop who merrily answers their questions (usually with the answer they want to hear) and then says 'have a puppy, is that cash or Visa?' Education is the way to go. Just need a way to make people understand that they need education :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 BDJ, I spent three hours on the phone being interviewed by the breeder of my wheatens and that was after talking to another breeder at a show who referred me on. I think some registered breeders could do a better job of explaining why they have that interview as well as explaining why people have to wait sometimes for a puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 thanks for not yelling Mita :) I know why there are questionaires, and see the value in them. My point was that Joe Public does not necessarily understand. So they either decide it is too hard, think that if they say the wrong thing they will be deemed unsuitable, or think it is unnecessary. They then go to a petshop who merrily answers their questions (usually with the answer they want to hear) and then says 'have a puppy, is that cash or Visa?' Education is the way to go. Just need a way to make people understand that they need education :D Yes.....and many years back, I was Joe Public....until that RSPCA Qld article told me where I could go and why. So it was education that informed me. When I got to those registered breeders, did they complete the job!!! Got invited to dog shows.....up to then, I didn't even know that the general public was welcome. You're right, one of the most common things I hear from many pet people is that they think only 'show-people' can buy from 'show-people'. They even believe that pet shops are where pet people should go to buy...like you go to the mower shop to buy a mower....sort of 'specialist ' sources. And, as you've said already, even if they find out they can go direct to breeders, they don't know how to find them. This is why I'd like to see that CHOICE page expanded and go into details like how to approach registered breeders and rescues....and what info to provide beforehand. And the guidelines spread as widely as possible....in non-animal selling pet supply stores, vet clinics....wherever. But all this alone won't solve the horrible problem.....as you & others have said, pet stores and internet sales make the puppies so accessible. And there'll always be heaps of people who want a puppy and they want it today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 This thread seems to have gone to pet shop puppies now however these people were not selling via pet shops. They were advertising & selling on the internet. Just like many registered breeders do & on this site too. The stupid part is that all these new laws that are in the making are not going to stop puppy farms at all. They are going to make it very hard for small registered hobby breeders who raise their dogs as part of their families. The large businesses that are registered with their council for permission to keep mega numbers of dogs & pay rates to their council for this & are registered businesses for tax purposes, the puppy factories are the ones that will thrive & be allowed. As long as they keep to basic recommendations for animal welfare, which may be a regulation sized concrete pen with heat & cooling etc this could be the future of dog breeding. New laws proposed are not going to stop scum like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Did they name and shame the low-lifes responsible? I wish they would jail people like this. Utter bastards. They did, from memory. I think their case has actually been discussed on DOL before - I think the couple either got of lighter or won an appeal based on the fact they were breeding to get out of hardship or something? Therefore what they were doing was based out of 'need and not greed'. Pretty sure this is the case HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverStar-Aura Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I also think that a lot of the problem with pet shop puppies is that many people wanting to buy a puppy, want one immediately. It's like shopping in general. I want a computer, so I'll go buy one, no waiting. I want a Big Mac, it gets made for me on the spot. Puppies don't work that way, however, it does if you get one from a pet shop. No waiting and no questions asked, take a pup home today. I myself fell vicim to it 3 years ago and even though I've ended up with the most gorgeous boy in the world, I will NEVER buy from a pet shop ever again. The sad thing is, I paid more for my "designer dog" than I did my pedigree Aussie. I'd gone out grocery shopping with my mum, and come home with a puppy -- you can't do this with a registered breeder. I hadn't even looked into the "breed"; just saw a cute puppy and purchased him. Luckily for Zeus, I was the type of owner not to give up on him -- I don't even want to think of how he would've ended up if I didn't take him in. He's been a challenge from day one, but I've worked and learned with him and it's been the most rewarding thing in my life. I love him to bits but knowing what I know now about BYBs and pet shop puppies, I will never again support them. If I wish for another mutt in the future, it'll be a rescue dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 This thread seems to have gone to pet shop puppies now however these people were not selling via pet shops. They were advertising & selling on the internet. Just like many registered breeders do & on this site too. The stupid part is that all these new laws that are in the making are not going to stop puppy farms at all. They are going to make it very hard for small registered hobby breeders who raise their dogs as part of their families. The large businesses that are registered with their council for permission to keep mega numbers of dogs & pay rates to their council for this & are registered businesses for tax purposes, the puppy factories are the ones that will thrive & be allowed. As long as they keep to basic recommendations for animal welfare, which may be a regulation sized concrete pen with heat & cooling etc this could be the future of dog breeding. New laws proposed are not going to stop scum like these. They actually were selliing to pet shops, Christina. Many in Qld, and some puppy barns. I don't know about interstate pet shop sales. At one stage, their pups infected 4 shops on the north coast with parvo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DobieMum Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 ok - I am possibly going to get shot for this - so can I ask that people read (and believe) my disclaimer before yelling :) Disclaimer - I have NEVER purchased a dog at a pet shop, I have NEVER bred a litter, and believe that pet shops should immediately be banned from selling any dogs or cats, and the people in the show last night should immediately and permanently lose all rights to own any animal in future. And I understand the reasons for the below points However, I believe that in some ways the purebred breeders do themselves no favours when it comes to encouraging people to buy from a reputable source. Remember, many "Joe Blow' people who want a puppy don't have the exposure that people on this forum do. When a decision is made to look at getting a puppy, they have 2 scenarios : Reputable source - not always easy to find the governing body. Try googling 'poodle for sale' and see what comes up (and most people think SACA relates to cricket, not dogs) - who is 'reputable'? - hard enough when you know what to look for - check out many breeders websites. The first thing you are faced with is a 20 question interview that makes it sound harder to get a puppy than adopt a child from Africa - unless it is a popular breed, you may have to wait 6 months to get a pup. Even longer if you want a specific colour or gender - many purebreds are quite extreme when looking at show stock. Some people dont realise that a clipped Shitzu looks like their neighbours SWF. They just see a lot of coat Pet Shop/internet - you pick the puppy 'off the shelf'. So if the family makes a decision to buy a pup, then they often have it at home within the week - the person at the shop tells them it comes from a 'nice family'. Why would they not believe it? - after all, those scary places are somewhere else and the pup in the shop looks clean and healthy What is the fix? - nothing simple. Rather than try and ban pet shops selling live animals (wish it happened but dont hold your breathe), why cant we look at making it a legal requirement for all pet shops to need to note the full name and address of the breeder. Then if you go to the shop and it is bred by "H&R Smith in Queensland", and you are in SA, the buyer will at least know that it was not a local pup Well said I've come from a dog breeding family and hopefully know about this and do my research carefully. But I've also owned boarding kennels and talk to most of Joe public and everything you've said above is true. Another point to make is a lot of pet puppy buyers still have the thought process "that the puppy picked us" they want to go see the litter (and Mum and Dad), sit with the litter and take their time picking the pup and then walk out with him/her tucked under their arms. It's a process that happens NOW. How do we fix human nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Gifts Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I nearly had a total falling out with my best friend of over 20 years when she bought a 'shiatsu' (she didn't even know the correct breed name when she got it) from a back yard breeder. She got this particular dog after finding an escaped dog of the same breed and deciding it was so cute she had to have one herself. I was livid that she had not listened to all the stuff I'd gone on about over the years about backyard breeding and puppy farms and giving rescue dogs a chance. She paid the same for her 'shiatsu' from a backyard source as she would've done from a registered breeder and brought that tiny thing home at only 6 weeks of age. She also went to a pet shop that sells puppies and spent $700 on accessories for her new pet. Her dog is now almost 3 and it wasn't till she watched the RSPCA show the other night that she put it all together and rang me and apologised. She is now educated. I have asked her to now pass on what she knows and feels to someone else in her circle. I actually don't care if good breeders or rescue groups make it hard for people to obtain a pet. Those that are committed to a particular animal will go the distance and that pet's life will be better for it as the match will be an informed and dearly wanted one, not just on a whim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Shiatsu - the rare Japanese massage breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Just like many registered breeders do & on this site too. DOL does not sell dogs on the internet - ads are placed on the internet. Buying via the internet means you click a button, enter in your credit card and the pup is yours. There is NOTHING wrong with advertising on the internet and it is very different from selling dogs direct via the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmate Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I totally hate puppy farmers and the way they treat these precious babies. Someone on here asked why people buy from petshops. I can give an example of someone i know who was trying to do the right thing. She wanted a GSP pup had not long lost their old GSP at 14.5 years old. They had shown her as a youngster but as their kids wanted to do sport etc they stopped showing. They rang the breeder of their old dog she was no longer breeding but gave her the emails and phone numbers of breeders and i also told her of this website. She sent off 11 emails and didnt hear back from one she phoned breeders some were quite rude as the dog will sleep outside and they both work they got the cold shoulder. They had to fill in questionaires that in once case was 3 double sided pages long. They finally found one person who was sue to have pups later on this year problem was this breeder put all these restrictions on the pup and as my friend said i'm paying for this pup i want to own her outright. The pup wouldnt be in her name she had to send her back to the breeder for 3 litters. All she really wanted was a nice family pet that was of sound body and mind and was possibly looking at the option of showing. After much discussion they went past a pet shop fell in love with a dacshund pup went home and then called the shop back up and went and got her the next day. So they now have a most probably puppy farmed dog thats spoilt rotten who LIVES in the house and goes everywhere with them. Who is the loosers here the breeders who decided to be greedy and want all the rights of the dog they wanted to just be able to love. So i know breeders try to find the best lovig homes for their pups but really some of the restrictins are unrealistic causing people to just go to a pet shop and buy one basically on the spur of the moment but really also by being pushed into it from the breeder. Dont get me wrong i definately condone puppy farming dreadful practice but breeders als cant make unrealistic expectations on owners. So its never about the cost of the pup IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I totally hate puppy farmers and the way they treat these precious babies. Someone on here asked why people buy from petshops. I can give an example of someone i know who was trying to do the right thing. She wanted a GSP pup had not long lost their old GSP at 14.5 years old. They had shown her as a youngster but as their kids wanted to do sport etc they stopped showing. They rang the breeder of their old dog she was no longer breeding but gave her the emails and phone numbers of breeders and i also told her of this website. She sent off 11 emails and didnt hear back from one she phoned breeders some were quite rude as the dog will sleep outside and they both work they got the cold shoulder. They had to fill in questionaires that in once case was 3 double sided pages long. They finally found one person who was sue to have pups later on this year problem was this breeder put all these restrictions on the pup and as my friend said i'm paying for this pup i want to own her outright. The pup wouldnt be in her name she had to send her back to the breeder for 3 litters. All she really wanted was a nice family pet that was of sound body and mind and was possibly looking at the option of showing. After much discussion they went past a pet shop fell in love with a dacshund pup went home and then called the shop back up and went and got her the next day. So they now have a most probably puppy farmed dog thats spoilt rotten who LIVES in the house and goes everywhere with them. Who is the loosers here the breeders who decided to be greedy and want all the rights of the dog they wanted to just be able to love. So i know breeders try to find the best lovig homes for their pups but really some of the restrictins are unrealistic causing people to just go to a pet shop and buy one basically on the spur of the moment but really also by being pushed into it from the breeder. Dont get me wrong i definately condone puppy farming dreadful practice but breeders als cant make unrealistic expectations on owners. So its never about the cost of the pup IMHO Wanted a GSP and ended up with a Dachshund.. because the breeds are so similar and all... And the dog was to sleep outside but the one they got now sleeps inside.. if they'd made that decision up front, they probably could have had the GSP after all. I love the idea that it's meant to be easy for any buyer to get the dog they want and somehow THAT justifies pet shops selling pups. Kerist I know families who shouldn't be allowed to keep tadpoles let alone some of the more challenging breeds. And can I please state for the record that the fact that you've managed to keep a dog of a particular breed alive for a decent period of time does NOT automatically make you a "good" owner for another dog of that breed. Case in point: Hungarian Vizsla owner in a family known to me. The dog sleeps outside, lives outside and never leaves the yard. Never. Suriving is not thriving and why any HV breeder would want to place a pup in that situation beats me. Sorry Dogmate, not having a go at you but most of these kinds of arugments have been floated before and most of them sink with a bit of scrutiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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