Staffyluv Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 One of the problems in these situations is the lack of reward history in context. ie- We take the dog to a distracting situation and the level of distraction being so high is then made 100 x worse by the fact that there is such infrequent reward for the dog. Consider your training at home- dog is compliant= pleny of reward. Training in distracting environment= no reward. Now from our people point of view we say- the dog won't take food, i can't reward the dog because he/ she is behaving so badly. This makes sense to us. But not to the dog. The dog comes to learn that in distracting environments, there is no opportunity for reward from the handler. (But plenty of fun can be had bouncing, pulling, leaping, whining etc) So what do we do about this. Firstly- short periods of time only. The more occasions where you have the dog there not getting rewards from you (remember the reason why doesn't really matter- we know it's because he's behaving poorly or won't take rewards but it's irrelevant to him) and getting excited and frustrated, the worse the problem will get. Secondly- i would get him out of the car and either drop a handful of food on the ground or if his focus at that point is okay- feed him from hand immediately. If he looks for more, feed him. If he doesn't, feed him. If you get to a point where he won't take food- either in time elapased or distance from the distractions, you have gone too far. I call it the bank account of reward history- and you need to start increasing the balance- dramatically. Teach him that this environment is about rewards from you- as soon as there is some reward history then start the LAT game. Build value for the LAT game by doing 100's of repetitions when you don't need to- at home, on regular walks etc. Use anything as the LAT distraction, not just other dogs. If you do enough reps like this, the effect of classical conditioning will then allow you to have more success when other dogs ARE present. MANY dogs are labelled as unmotivated when the problem is actually a lack of reward history which in turn leads to no expectation of reward. If the dog does not expect it, they can't anticipate it. If they don't anticipate it- all their energy has to go somewhere, and it's going to go away from the handler. That is awesome advice, thank you. I will try that on Saturday at training.. Would it be more beneficial to get there earlier than the others and start before the other dogs get there? I will do it tomorrow and Friday at the park when we go for our early walk.. He is a pretty quick learner, so hopefully a change of pattern from me, might be just what he needs... Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Great post, Cosmolo +1 explained very well thank you Cosmolo :) I was having a think about all this on my walk last week, in particular my resistance to reward Weez when he barks but still looks back to me, and my concern about "rewarding bad behaviour" even though I know his barkey-lungey reaction is not being processed at the decision-making "operant" level. So I worked my way through to the worse case scenario - I will have a dog who is responding to an environmental cue to receive a reward, which is waaaay easier to extinguish than a dog that is acting unthinkingly out of fear/frustration/play drive etc. Everything written above makes all that a little bit clearer too :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Glad it makes sense! You know it's something i never considered in my early training years but it is just so incredibly important that it's one of the first things i think about now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 And another for a great explanation of a super important principle, Cosmolo. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Another to Cosmolo - great explanation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perfect partners Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 One of the problems in these situations is the lack of reward history in context. ie- We take the dog to a distracting situation and the level of distraction being so high is then made 100 x worse by the fact that there is such infrequent reward for the dog. Consider your training at home- dog is compliant= pleny of reward. Training in distracting environment= no reward. Now from our people point of view we say- the dog won't take food, i can't reward the dog because he/ she is behaving so badly. This makes sense to us. But not to the dog. The dog comes to learn that in distracting environments, there is no opportunity for reward from the handler. (But plenty of fun can be had bouncing, pulling, leaping, whining etc) So what do we do about this. Firstly- short periods of time only. The more occasions where you have the dog there not getting rewards from you (remember the reason why doesn't really matter- we know it's because he's behaving poorly or won't take rewards but it's irrelevant to him) and getting excited and frustrated, the worse the problem will get. Secondly- i would get him out of the car and either drop a handful of food on the ground or if his focus at that point is okay- feed him from hand immediately. If he looks for more, feed him. If he doesn't, feed him. If you get to a point where he won't take food- either in time elapased or distance from the distractions, you have gone too far. I call it the bank account of reward history- and you need to start increasing the balance- dramatically. Teach him that this environment is about rewards from you- as soon as there is some reward history then start the LAT game. Build value for the LAT game by doing 100's of repetitions when you don't need to- at home, on regular walks etc. Use anything as the LAT distraction, not just other dogs. If you do enough reps like this, the effect of classical conditioning will then allow you to have more success when other dogs ARE present. MANY dogs are labelled as unmotivated when the problem is actually a lack of reward history which in turn leads to no expectation of reward. If the dog does not expect it, they can't anticipate it. If they don't anticipate it- all their energy has to go somewhere, and it's going to go away from the handler. Great explanation - makes so much sense. Thanks Cosmolo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 One of the problems in these situations is the lack of reward history in context. ie- We take the dog to a distracting situation and the level of distraction being so high is then made 100 x worse by the fact that there is such infrequent reward for the dog. Consider your training at home- dog is compliant= pleny of reward. Training in distracting environment= no reward. Now from our people point of view we say- the dog won't take food, i can't reward the dog because he/ she is behaving so badly. This makes sense to us. But not to the dog. The dog comes to learn that in distracting environments, there is no opportunity for reward from the handler. (But plenty of fun can be had bouncing, pulling, leaping, whining etc) So what do we do about this. Firstly- short periods of time only. The more occasions where you have the dog there not getting rewards from you (remember the reason why doesn't really matter- we know it's because he's behaving poorly or won't take rewards but it's irrelevant to him) and getting excited and frustrated, the worse the problem will get. Secondly- i would get him out of the car and either drop a handful of food on the ground or if his focus at that point is okay- feed him from hand immediately. If he looks for more, feed him. If he doesn't, feed him. If you get to a point where he won't take food- either in time elapased or distance from the distractions, you have gone too far. I call it the bank account of reward history- and you need to start increasing the balance- dramatically. Teach him that this environment is about rewards from you- as soon as there is some reward history then start the LAT game. Build value for the LAT game by doing 100's of repetitions when you don't need to- at home, on regular walks etc. Use anything as the LAT distraction, not just other dogs. If you do enough reps like this, the effect of classical conditioning will then allow you to have more success when other dogs ARE present. MANY dogs are labelled as unmotivated when the problem is actually a lack of reward history which in turn leads to no expectation of reward. If the dog does not expect it, they can't anticipate it. If they don't anticipate it- all their energy has to go somewhere, and it's going to go away from the handler. Great explanation - makes so much sense. Thanks Cosmolo. I find the timing of the marker ie the click, very crucial too. You have to click the exact moment he looks at the distraction, not after he has looked & you have lost him. If you get your timing right & click as soon as he looks at the distraction & he doesn't turn to you for the reward, then you know you have gone too far too soon & need to get more distance. Of course playing games & using the clicker to learn tricks etc is very important to the success of the LAT game IMO. The LAT then becomes a 'game/trick" to the dog & before you know it he is turning to you before you have time to click, so then you click & treat him for turning to you with lots of praise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 Agree timing is very important - it is one of the things I need to do better.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Did you train on the weekend Staffyluv? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 6, 2012 Author Share Posted August 6, 2012 Yes we did and what a difference.. He is much more responsive, even to the point of looking at me when asked (while other dogs were barking in the back ground). Taking treats for good work.. He was almost like a different dog... There is still work to be done but we are definitely getting there... It makes you so proud when we work together so well... It was a great training session and I am trying to do the same with him each day, so we have another good session this weekend. I think a few good sessions with other dogs around will reinforce what we have started... I used cheese and frankfurt as treats (a suggestion from the trainer)... She said to use things that he would never get at home that he really likes... I was treating at the smallest good stuff. Like a 5 second look at me, I shoveled about 5 treats into him.. It really worked well.. Thanks again for the advice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 We are off to training again this morning, hopefully it will go as well as last week.. He has been very good at home this week. But he has also been a bit sick, so training has been really limited as we didn't want to upset his tummy more with treat type food, so we just used bits of kibble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Good news. :D .however, if he still has any sort of tummy upset , it may not be a wise move to take him to training . Firstly he may not be focussed..and importantly .. he may spread whatever bug he has . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 Good news. :D .however, if he still has any sort of tummy upset , it may not be a wise move to take him to training . Firstly he may not be focussed..and importantly .. he may spread whatever bug he has . Pers his tummy upset was from family feeding him bacon... He seems to be very sensitive tummy wise with food. The vet thinks it could have been a slight case of pancreatitis, so he is just on light meals a few times a day. The vet said he should be OK to go to training and the trainer said she was happy for him to stay, when she had a look at him... He is not really food orientated, I get a better response from him with a squeaky tennis ball.. Lucky all the other pups are food focused or that could be an issue for the other owners. He had no breaky before we went and he still wasn't interested in the chicken, turkey or cheese I had. He had a second sniff at the liver treats but still just wanted the ball.. But we are doing what Cos suggested and working with treats at home all the time to get him to value them and it is working.. His focus was so much more on me today than it has ever been with so many other dogs around..just with the smells, he wasn't really interested in eating but every time I waved it near his nose, he looked at me, just didn't take the treat. He did really well. The trainer was very impressed with how far he has come, considering he hasn't felt well most of the week. He was loose lead most of the time. Apart from when the little puppies get to close and he tries to say hello.. He just adores the little lab pup and he only gets to say a quick few second hello if he approaches properly. If he jumps towards the pup, we walk away.. He is such a boof head but so very gentle with smaller dogs and pups... He is knackered now and sound asleep on the lounge with the warm sunshine on him... He deserves a nice rest in the sunshine after how good he worked today.. I just want to say how great the advice has been and how much I appreciate it.. Dogs can be so different. Our old boy, Ollie, was a dream to train.. No real issues until later in his life when he was attacked a couple of times and became a bit iffy around other dogs as he just didn't seem to trust other dogs any more. His focus was always on me. Zig on the other hand, while an angel at home and easy to train, his focus is gone when we are out... He is an awesome little dog and when we get this all worked out, he will be even more awesome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 :) Hope his system settles down, and the feeders of bacon have learned a lesson .Glad he did well at training- good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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