RiverStar-Aura Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 My opinion may not be popular but anyhow... You don't need a halti. Get yourself a check chain (or martingale, or even a prong collar) and learn how to give the dog a decent, well timed correction. I tried a check chain on Zeus but all he does is still pull, pull, pull. I stopped using it for fear of hurting his throat and it didn't seem that any amount of choking was going to stop him pulling. Haltis and no-pull harnesses only mask the behaviour, not deal with the cause. On top of that the problem rarely lies with the dog - it's usually (and un-intentionally) the owner. The Infin8 halter that he now wears definitely just masks his symptoms of pulling but still has little effect on his reactivity. Once I'm finished with Kirah at this Back to Basics class, I'll be enrolling Zeus in it too. I totally understand that I'm the problem; I've just never 'got' the whole loose leash walking thing. I don't know whether it's how I'm applying what I've been told or whether I'm just doing it wrong. Hopefully I'll work it out soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Just to add- i have never had a dog (large or small) get out of a front attaching harness. They are good for geting control WHILE you employ other techniques to fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Halti's and no-pull harnesses only mask the behaviour, not deal with the cause. It might not be that simple depending on what you are trying to do. With Weez's motion reactivity I am using a program of counter-conditioning and LAT, so the front-attach harness fits nicely into that by making it easier to turn him around when he goes over threshold. It doesn't mask anything I can assure you, he still goes off his 'nana :laugh: Edited July 31, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 My opinion may not be popular but anyhow... You don't need a halti. Get yourself a check chain (or martingale, or even a prong collar) and learn how to give the dog a decent, well timed correction. At the moment he understands that there is a reward for focussing on you, BUT there is a much higher self reward in lunging at other dogs - and right now there is no consequence for that behaviour. You need to be clearer in what you want. Halti's and no-pull harnesses only mask the behaviour, not deal with the cause. On top of that the problem rarely lies with the dog - it's usually (and un-intentionally) the owner. I had this point rammed home to me on the weekend so you're not the only one. Yes, yes and yes... I do realise that it is more me than him and that he is young and excitable.. That the other dogs offer more than I do (to him), with play and excitement for him. Treats don't really mean anything to him - he couldn't care less about them. He is very ball focused and I have found these squeaky tennis balls made by kong that he is mad for... I can get his attention with these but it doesn't last long - maybe 10-15 minutes and he is looking for the other dogs again.. No amount of calling, squeaking or treats in front of his face will take his attention away from the other dogs (if there are any around)... We have a martingale collar but the trainer said to take it off him as he does not respond to it at all - he literally keeps going gagging and choking. I need to learn to watch him better to respond before he escalates to a level of excitement (the point where I lose him).. In saying that - if he thinks I am leaving, or I say, that's it lets go, he walks away with me... He is 16 months old now and I know he will settle with time and training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 I had to take the car over for a service this morning so called into the pet shop on the way back. They have a variety of front attaching harnesses and head halti's there - but said they need to be fitted to the dog and to bring him in this afternoon and they will have someone there that can help me fit him correctly. So I think I am going to buy both - I can always sell off one if it does not work for us but I want to try everything for him to see what works best for both of us... Thanks for all the advice and experience... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) My opinion may not be popular but anyhow... You don't need a halti. Get yourself a check chain (or martingale, or even a prong collar) and learn how to give the dog a decent, well timed correction. At the moment he understands that there is a reward for focussing on you, BUT there is a much higher self reward in lunging at other dogs - and right now there is no consequence for that behaviour. You need to be clearer in what you want. Halti's and no-pull harnesses only mask the behaviour, not deal with the cause. On top of that the problem rarely lies with the dog - it's usually (and un-intentionally) the owner. I had this point rammed home to me on the weekend so you're not the only one. Yes, yes and yes... I do realise that it is more me than him and that he is young and excitable.. That the other dogs offer more than I do (to him), with play and excitement for him. Treats don't really mean anything to him - he couldn't care less about them. He is very ball focused and I have found these squeaky tennis balls made by kong that he is mad for... I can get his attention with these but it doesn't last long - maybe 10-15 minutes and he is looking for the other dogs again.. No amount of calling, squeaking or treats in front of his face will take his attention away from the other dogs (if there are any around)... We have a martingale collar but the trainer said to take it off him as he does not respond to it at all - he literally keeps going gagging and choking. I need to learn to watch him better to respond before he escalates to a level of excitement (the point where I lose him).. In saying that - if he thinks I am leaving, or I say, that's it lets go, he walks away with me... He is 16 months old now and I know he will settle with time and training. Just wanted to highlight that for you since sometimes we miss what we actually say. Can you give him a break in a crate after 10minutes and work him under his time threshold for a while? ETA- 10minutes is a LONG time. I have trouble focusing at obedience for 10minute without sitting down and having a rumble/cuddle session with my current 16mth old pup. Usually I move away from class and do some fun cuddle/settle time for 5/10minutes then rejoin the class and do another 10minutes (or however long until I get bored again :laugh: ) Edited July 31, 2012 by Jumabaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Awesome that he likes balls 10 - 15 minutes is a LONG time! I would aim for short periods of good focus and then end it. Asking for an hour long stint at eg obedience is setting yourself up for failure. LAT and similar are a great idea in your case I think. The difference the click to calm ideas have made to my dog aggro dog are amazing! Before I did that a treat in front of her face would not keep her attention around other dogs even though she has high food and toy drive - she just couldn't focus. Now that I use Click to Calm ideas she will focus back on me by herself and get a food reward, so I am no longer trying to lure her and she has much better focus without the food in her face. Knowing your critical distance is, well, critical :laugh: to success :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 Kavik, our training sessions go from 10 to 12 every Saturday.. I think it is much to long but as the trainer said, she doesn't expect the dogs to stay focused the whole time (considering there are 4 of us, 2 with 14 week old pups) - I am glad she doesn't expect complete concentration for that time. The time spent with her gives us lots to work on during the week... It is really basic stuff and Ziggy can do most of what we ask when on his own... She has seen him in his home environment and suggested he needed a group environment to get used to the idea that he can be around other dogs and he doesn't have to play.. So far it is not working out like I hoped but I have faith :laugh: Weasels, he is very much a teenager now (that is what the trainer keeps saying to me - be patient, he is a teenager and he will grow out of it and calm down a bit)... :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I have my teenage puppy in a sporn harness and it's not the miracle people talk about, but it's good for regaining some control when she tries to take off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I use a front attach harness on Weez and find it works great when he reacts, it's much easier to get his attention back to me than with a regular harness or collar, which he can just lean into :) I have a Sensation (sense-ation? Something like that) harness. I worry about their sensitive noses in a head collar, but I haven't looked into it much. Since staffs have a lot more chest than nose I would personally go for a harness :laugh: Clean run have these on Free shipping at the moment along with the Easy Walk ones. They work well on my big Border Collie when he is excited, but after he chewed through his second one, I dug the old Halti (head halter) out of the cupboard & that works well on him as well. We only use it on him, if we think there is a chance he is going to get excited & start to pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Halti's and no-pull harnesses only mask the behaviour, not deal with the cause. It might not be that simple depending on what you are trying to do. With Weez's motion reactivity I am using a program of counter-conditioning and LAT, so the front-attach harness fits nicely into that by making it easier to turn him around when he goes over threshold. It doesn't mask anything I can assure you, he still goes off his 'nana :laugh: Great programme & yes....the front attached harness of the head halti will give you more control, by not allowing him to self-reward if the situation is over threshhold...gives you a chance to move back a little. In the July Clean Run Magazine there is a very good article on self-control & they recommend you use a head halter in the early stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I have my teenage puppy in a sporn harness and it's not the miracle people talk about, but it's good for regaining some control when she tries to take off. I find a sporn works great with my girl's pulling but had no effect on my boy. But the Senseation works great on my boy - so it probably varies from dog to dog Halti's and no-pull harnesses only mask the behaviour, not deal with the cause. It might not be that simple depending on what you are trying to do. With Weez's motion reactivity I am using a program of counter-conditioning and LAT, so the front-attach harness fits nicely into that by making it easier to turn him around when he goes over threshold. It doesn't mask anything I can assure you, he still goes off his 'nana :laugh: Great programme & yes....the front attached harness of the head halti will give you more control, by not allowing him to self-reward if the situation is over threshhold...gives you a chance to move back a little. In the July Clean Run Magazine there is a very good article on self-control & they recommend you use a head halter in the early stages. It has worked amazingly well even with my terrible training of it (mostly training with 'naturally-occuring' bikes which I have no control over, and with both dogs together ) - I have trouble getting Weez to look at a bike to play LAT now, I generally get one look with some encouragement but he doesn't care enough to look twice :laugh: Skateboards and scooter are still works-in-progress tho :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Weasels, he is very much a teenager now (that is what the trainer keeps saying to me - be patient, he is a teenager and he will grow out of it and calm down a bit)... :laugh: I feel like I am juuust starting to climb out of the "valley of the teenager" now, after much hard work and frustration - and I can assure you the view looks much better from this side :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Weasels, he is very much a teenager now (that is what the trainer keeps saying to me - be patient, he is a teenager and he will grow out of it and calm down a bit)... :laugh: I feel like I am juuust starting to climb out of the "valley of the teenager" now, after much hard work and frustration - and I can assure you the view looks much better from this side :laugh: I am sure it does - we just bought a Lupi harness as we need one now but I will order a better one online tonight. It goes around his legs and chest and pulls him up if he pulls. I will be honest, it does not look strong enough for him (it is just some soft rope type material).. They did say I can take it back if it is not suitable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Weasels, he is very much a teenager now (that is what the trainer keeps saying to me - be patient, he is a teenager and he will grow out of it and calm down a bit)... :laugh: I feel like I am juuust starting to climb out of the "valley of the teenager" now, after much hard work and frustration - and I can assure you the view looks much better from this side :laugh: I am sure it does - we just bought a Lupi harness as we need one now but I will order a better one online tonight. It goes around his legs and chest and pulls him up if he pulls. I will be honest, it does not look strong enough for him (it is just some soft rope type material).. They did say I can take it back if it is not suitable... If ever you are stuck out somewhere without the harness, just loop his lead loosely around his chest, so you are holding two bits of the lead, a bit like a guide dog. It works wonders to stop them pulling, but they can back out of it & not suitable for dogs that spin. It's not a long term fix though as our young guy...took him a while....but he did work it out in the end & now it's not as effective as the halti or the FA Harness..... I love them both & he is getting good with his loose lead walking as well, just not when he is excited. And talking about teenagers.....our guy is now nearly 17 months & has just recently started to "test" us. "Sit??...why should I sit, when shortly your'e going to get me to stand up.... & stay???...why should I stay when shortly you're going to ask me to run to you... I can get there quicker if I don't sit" Someone told me they go through another teenage stage at about this age....so we need to be a bit firmer, or he'll have us out on the street :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) Kavik, our training sessions go from 10 to 12 every Saturday.. I think it is much to long but as the trainer said, she doesn't expect the dogs to stay focused the whole time (considering there are 4 of us, 2 with 14 week old pups) - I am glad she doesn't expect complete concentration for that time. The time spent with her gives us lots to work on during the week... It is really basic stuff and Ziggy can do most of what we ask when on his own... She has seen him in his home environment and suggested he needed a group environment to get used to the idea that he can be around other dogs and he doesn't have to play.. So far it is not working out like I hoped but I have faith :laugh: Weasels, he is very much a teenager now (that is what the trainer keeps saying to me - be patient, he is a teenager and he will grow out of it and calm down a bit)... :laugh: 2 hrs Wow that is a long time. Even at agility, which is fast paced and exciting to keep their attention, if I am not working or just about to work Kaos, I put him in his crate to chill as much as possible. If the environment is really exciting, even just being there for a long time can wind them up. I do engagement exercises to keep his attention when we are waiting our turn. I prefer short turns where you can keep them totally focused on the job, and then relax/chill out time in the crate. Trying to keep their attention for so long is really tiring - I remember when I used to take Zoe. Edited August 1, 2012 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Another thing I just thought of - with his basic commands - sit, drop, stand - I assume they are fine at home? Have you tried making 'home' more exciting to simulate an exciting training environment? I found doing this has really helped Kaos. Like running with him and then asking him to sit, or waving treats and asking him to drop, or lie down myself and ask him to sit etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 His responses at home are great.. we do different stuff at home with training inside and outside, sometimes in the driveway, sometimes around the back on the grass.. I might be cooking dinner and I will call him and get him to heel beside me, drop or stay while I get stuff out of the fridge and stuff - to try to vary his training situations at home. It is a long time to be at training, I think that is why the trainer says to put him in the car a bit because he can't just sit there or just stand there with the other dogs in sight - he constantly pulls on the lead to go to them (but I don't let him). When he is being really good, we might say hello to the puppies for 3 seconds and then walk away, so he gets used to saying hello without the play involved. But he always pulls back towards the other dogs, especially the puppies.. As rough as he is with big dogs, he is so gentle with the little ones. We have a 14 week old lab pup and a 16 week old greyhound cross in class and he crawls on his belly to get to them.. Thanks for the tips, I am willing to try whatever works for him... He is a big dog now at 25kg and he must be scary to some dogs when he starts pulling towards them so eager to get there.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 One of the problems in these situations is the lack of reward history in context. ie- We take the dog to a distracting situation and the level of distraction being so high is then made 100 x worse by the fact that there is such infrequent reward for the dog. Consider your training at home- dog is compliant= pleny of reward. Training in distracting environment= no reward. Now from our people point of view we say- the dog won't take food, i can't reward the dog because he/ she is behaving so badly. This makes sense to us. But not to the dog. The dog comes to learn that in distracting environments, there is no opportunity for reward from the handler. (But plenty of fun can be had bouncing, pulling, leaping, whining etc) So what do we do about this. Firstly- short periods of time only. The more occasions where you have the dog there not getting rewards from you (remember the reason why doesn't really matter- we know it's because he's behaving poorly or won't take rewards but it's irrelevant to him) and getting excited and frustrated, the worse the problem will get. Secondly- i would get him out of the car and either drop a handful of food on the ground or if his focus at that point is okay- feed him from hand immediately. If he looks for more, feed him. If he doesn't, feed him. If you get to a point where he won't take food- either in time elapased or distance from the distractions, you have gone too far. I call it the bank account of reward history- and you need to start increasing the balance- dramatically. Teach him that this environment is about rewards from you- as soon as there is some reward history then start the LAT game. Build value for the LAT game by doing 100's of repetitions when you don't need to- at home, on regular walks etc. Use anything as the LAT distraction, not just other dogs. If you do enough reps like this, the effect of classical conditioning will then allow you to have more success when other dogs ARE present. MANY dogs are labelled as unmotivated when the problem is actually a lack of reward history which in turn leads to no expectation of reward. If the dog does not expect it, they can't anticipate it. If they don't anticipate it- all their energy has to go somewhere, and it's going to go away from the handler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Great post, Cosmolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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