Ayen Chen - Dog Owner Fined

[geo]

Do you know that good stable dogs don't need to be socialised at all, aggression in most cases is a reaction to insecurity, good dogs don't feel insecure with new sights and surroundings, they are comfortable in their own skin. Socialisation routines do help to desensitise crap dogs but the belief that a reactive dog behaves in that manner is not because of a lack of socialisation, what you see is the raw genetics of the dog's character unmasked by socialisation/training.

Ummmm are you for real... this maybe possible with some breeds, Again what's with the "crap" dogs comments? do you even like dogs as a whole? Socialising dogs is the smart way to help your dog become socially acceptable to the masses who put certain criteria on them.

What do you think will happen if you take a dog that was bred for stability then, you didn't socialise it, mistreated it etc.. do you think that dog has the potential to bite? of course it has.

I've seen "byb" dogs that are rock solid around strangers, no issues with food, good with kids etc... but one dog didn't like the sound of plastic bags... fireworks didn't set her off but shopping bags did, this certainly didn't make her a poor dog.

How many pure bred dogs do you know that are rock solid on fire works night? guess all the ones who are scared must be BYB or something..?

[moosmum]

Do you know that good stable dogs don't need to be socialised at all, aggression in most cases is a reaction to insecurity, good dogs don't feel insecure with new sights and surroundings, they are comfortable in their own skin. Socialisation routines do help to desensitise crap dogs but the belief that a reactive dog behaves in that manner is not because of a lack of socialisation, what you see is the raw genetics of the dog's character unmasked by socialisation/training.

Ummmm are you for real... this maybe possible with some breeds, Again what's with the "crap" dogs comments? do you even like dogs as a whole? Socialising dogs is the smart way to help your dog become socially acceptable to the masses who put certain criteria on them.

What do you think will happen if you take a dog that was bred for stability then, you didn't socialise it, mistreated it etc.. do you think that dog has the potential to bite? of course it has.

I've seen "byb" dogs that are rock solid around strangers, no issues with food, good with kids etc... but one dog didn't like the sound of plastic bags... fireworks didn't set her off but shopping bags did, this certainly didn't make her a poor dog.

How many pure bred dogs do you know that are rock solid on fire works night? guess all the ones who are scared must be BYB or something..?

(Sorry Geo,not at you.Just not good with this quote thing)

Well there goes a major argument against puppy mills.All they need to do is find stable dogs that don't need socialising tho' they could get around that by lobotomising them.That might pass for the same thing)

Incidentaly,I searched over 6 years to find dogs suited to my situation.Rang breed clubs for my breed many times,even contacted police and defence forces since "my" breed had in the past been very active in those fields.Not any more and was told by breed club I "wouldn't get one like that" ( able to be good with children and animals to free range on farm,yet remain actively protective as opposed to vicious)

I have cross breeds now who do the job beautifully.I see great breeders trying hard to reverse the situation (and fervently hope they succeed,they have my admirration and 100% support)but I have yet to find a breeder who can guarantee me the stability I have found for my situation and keep working ability.

Since you mention working dogs.

The big thing many security peeps are focusing on these days is high prey,useless for my situation and not needed.

We need room in both legislation and breeder trends to allow alternative ideals to be explored.

Edited August 5, 2012 by moosmum

[Cat]

Oh dear....M-sass...you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I would strongly suggest you do more research on Training, breeds and breeding before you come here and spout garbage.

And congratulations on once again missing the point.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Cat

[Sheridan]

I'm not sure m-sass actually has dogs.

[BlackJaq]

Do you know that good stable dogs don't need to be socialised at all, aggression in most cases is a reaction to insecurity, good dogs don't feel insecure with new sights

Sorry but that is ridiculous. Completely laughable. Maybe your "ideal" dog is like this, but most "real" dogs will have something or other or certain situations that they feel uncomfortable with or are even afraid of. They are dogs, not robots.

I honestly believe that no matter what the disposition of the dog is, whether it is a blood thirsty killing machine or super-smooching couch lizard, it should ALWAYS be up to the owner to manage the dog and the owner should be responsible for the dog in all circumstances.

Yes I agree in a perfect world that should be the case, but on the other hand I can see why the type of dogs who fall victim to a lack of owner control and management posing a danger to the community become targets for irradication in the stance for saftey.

If we eradicate the type or breed of dog that they like to use now they will simply move onto something else. German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, these are all purebreds and they have all previously been in the same situation as the Pitbull is in now. Labradors have not had their reputation marred by lowlife owners as these breeds have, however, they still have fairly high numbers in most bite stats I ahve laid eyes on so far.

Where does this leave your argument that purebreds don't ever bite? Pretty sure I've read a news article about a pomeranian killing a baby before and even my breed of choice, the Weimaraner, has caused fatalities. Not so long ago a toddler in the US was bitten on the neck by the family's Wei and died. None of these dogs are even bull breeds at all.

I also don't get the feeling that you like dogs in general very much. Maybe you should just stay away from them, you miht feel a lot safer...

[TheCheekyMonster]

Oh dear....M-sass...you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I would strongly suggest you do more research on Training, breeds and breeding before you come here and spout garbage.

And congratulations on once again missing the point.

m-mass what expertise/qualification do you have to be making such comments about dog behaviour, aggression and training?

The only valid qualifications I am aware of is a veterinary behaviourist, that's not me, experience training 38 years........what comments are you referring to here??

[Aidan3]

I have a GSD with magnificent social skills who was almost certainly not socialised (being kept on a chain and all...) He's a good example for the "good genes trumps bad environment" hypothesis. Fairly exceptional, though. Good genes aren't any sort of guarantee.

Although he is back-yard bred...

There are a lot of factors in every dog bite. Breed is correlated, but we have clear examples with good data of why we shouldn't make the mistake of confusing correlation with causation. Where certain breeds such as the pitbull have been removed from populations, dog bites have not decreased. That alone should be enough to make a thinking person wonder. Then we have an example (Calgary, Canada) where BSL has been repealed, the pitbull population has increased, and dog bites have declined.

[m-sass]

Do you know that good stable dogs don't need to be socialised at all, aggression in most cases is a reaction to insecurity, good dogs don't feel insecure with new sights

Sorry but that is ridiculous. Completely laughable. Maybe your "ideal" dog is like this, but most "real" dogs will have something or other or certain situations that they feel uncomfortable with or are even afraid of. They are dogs, not robots.

I honestly believe that no matter what the disposition of the dog is, whether it is a blood thirsty killing machine or super-smooching couch lizard, it should ALWAYS be up to the owner to manage the dog and the owner should be responsible for the dog in all circumstances.

Yes I agree in a perfect world that should be the case, but on the other hand I can see why the type of dogs who fall victim to a lack of owner control and management posing a danger to the community become targets for irradication in the stance for saftey.

If we eradicate the type or breed of dog that they like to use now they will simply move onto something else. German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, these are all purebreds and they have all previously been in the same situation as the Pitbull is in now. Labradors have not had their reputation marred by lowlife owners as these breeds have, however, they still have fairly high numbers in most bite stats I ahve laid eyes on so far.

Where does this leave your argument that purebreds don't ever bite? Pretty sure I've read a news article about a pomeranian killing a baby before and even my breed of choice, the Weimaraner, has caused fatalities. Not so long ago a toddler in the US was bitten on the neck by the family's Wei and died. None of these dogs are even bull breeds at all.

I also don't get the feeling that you like dogs in general very much. Maybe you should just stay away from them, you miht feel a lot safer...

I am speaking "aggression" in my comment of stable dogs not needing socialisation, do you think the default behaviour of all unsocialised dogs is aggression...........it's not trust me??

GSD, Rott's, Dobe's etc are not hunting dogs with blinding aggression, the reason they don't use them for those roles, big difference between guarding instinct and killing machines. Morons won't use herders to provide the aggression they are looking for because they have to train them or find fear biters and what breeders of constantly hard herders trainable in defence and attack will sell to morons??.

Pure breeds have a recognised standard..........unstable aggression is a breed fault in the major working breeds, there is a defence to their existance if the odd one does bite someone, but what's the standard for a Bully crossbreed which may be killing machine who knows, where is the defence in the standards of a crossbreed??

[m-sass]

I have a GSD with magnificent social skills who was almost certainly not socialised (being kept on a chain and all...) He's a good example for the "good genes trumps bad environment" hypothesis. Fairly exceptional, though. Good genes aren't any sort of guarantee.

Although he is back-yard bred...

There are a lot of factors in every dog bite. Breed is correlated, but we have clear examples with good data of why we shouldn't make the mistake of confusing correlation with causation. Where certain breeds such as the pitbull have been removed from populations, dog bites have not decreased. That alone should be enough to make a thinking person wonder. Then we have an example (Calgary, Canada) where BSL has been repealed, the pitbull population has increased, and dog bites have declined.

I think they look more at the statistical data with the level of injury sustained by resticted breeds when involved in incidents over frequency. Your GSD sounds like a great dog of good character.......enjoy :)

[sandgrubber]

Do you know that good stable dogs don't need to be socialised at all, aggression in most cases is a reaction to insecurity, good dogs don't feel insecure with new sights and surroundings, they are comfortable in their own skin. Socialisation routines do help to desensitise crap dogs but the belief that a reactive dog behaves in that manner is not because of a lack of socialisation, what you see is the raw genetics of the dog's character unmasked by socialisation/training.

Ummmm are you for real... this maybe possible with some breeds, Again what's with the "crap" dogs comments? do you even like dogs as a whole? Socialising dogs is the smart way to help your dog become socially acceptable to the masses who put certain criteria on them.

What do you think will happen if you take a dog that was bred for stability then, you didn't socialise it, mistreated it etc.. do you think that dog has the potential to bite? of course it has.

I've seen "byb" dogs that are rock solid around strangers, no issues with food, good with kids etc... but one dog didn't like the sound of plastic bags... fireworks didn't set her off but shopping bags did, this certainly didn't make her a poor dog.

How many pure bred dogs do you know that are rock solid on fire works night? guess all the ones who are scared must be BYB or something..?

I don't much like the phrase 'crap dog', but I don't see where you get that m-sass is saying the 'crap' comes from cross breeding or BYB's. There are unstable dogs out there. Poor temperament with genetic origins isn't the whole problem, but it sure doesn't help. Good BYB's, including those with mutts, may decide to have a litter because they have a healthy dog with good temperament, and they want another like her (or him). The whole breed registry system is only a few hundred years old. Before that, many breeds working dogs were products of back yard breeding, and many involved in the process had no compunction about using a different type of dog to try to get the sort of pups they wanted. Ie, we love this girl but it would be good she were a little bigger . . . so we'll cross to a good working dog of another breed who is an inch or two taller.

For all we know, the dog who killed Ayen Chol was rock solid, bred via X-breeding, for low bite threshold, great strength, and high drive, and trained to go for dark skinned people.

[geo]

I am speaking "aggression" in my comment of stable dogs not needing socialisation, do you think the default behaviour of all unsocialised dogs is aggression...........it's not trust me??

GSD, Rott's, Dobe's etc are not hunting dogs with blinding aggression, the reason they don't use them for those roles, big difference between guarding instinct and killing machines. Morons won't use herders to provide the aggression they are looking for because they have to train them or find fear biters and what breeders of constantly hard herders trainable in defence and attack will sell to morons??.

Pure breeds have a recognised standard..........unstable aggression is a breed fault in the major working breeds, there is a defence to their existance if the odd one does bite someone, but what's the standard for a Bully crossbreed which may be killing machine who knows, where is the defence in the standards of a crossbreed??

Default beahvior..? it depends on the situation, you can't say that a dog that has never done anything wrong or displayed aggression has a default behavior, if it did then it would've shown it many times!!

Hunting dogs do not have blinding aggression, i have no idea where you get your ideas from from?!

Unbalanced dogs of any breed are a problem. not just bull breeds, you need to get your head around that.

[JulesP]

Has anyone read anything sensible about why this dog did what it did?

[moosmum]

Do you know that good stable dogs don't need to be socialised at all, aggression in most cases is a reaction to insecurity, good dogs don't feel insecure with new sights

Sorry but that is ridiculous. Completely laughable. Maybe your "ideal" dog is like this, but most "real" dogs will have something or other or certain situations that they feel uncomfortable with or are even afraid of. They are dogs, not robots.

I honestly believe that no matter what the disposition of the dog is, whether it is a blood thirsty killing machine or super-smooching couch lizard, it should ALWAYS be up to the owner to manage the dog and the owner should be responsible for the dog in all circumstances.

Yes I agree in a perfect world that should be the case, but on the other hand I can see why the type of dogs who fall victim to a lack of owner control and management posing a danger to the community become targets for irradication in the stance for saftey.

If we eradicate the type or breed of dog that they like to use now they will simply move onto something else. German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, these are all purebreds and they have all previously been in the same situation as the Pitbull is in now. Labradors have not had their reputation marred by lowlife owners as these breeds have, however, they still have fairly high numbers in most bite stats I ahve laid eyes on so far.

Where does this leave your argument that purebreds don't ever bite? Pretty sure I've read a news article about a pomeranian killing a baby before and even my breed of choice, the Weimaraner, has caused fatalities. Not so long ago a toddler in the US was bitten on the neck by the family's Wei and died. None of these dogs are even bull breeds at all.

I also don't get the feeling that you like dogs in general very much. Maybe you should just stay away from them, you miht feel a lot safer...

I am speaking "aggression" in my comment of stable dogs not needing socialisation, do you think the default behaviour of all unsocialised dogs is aggression...........it's not trust me??

GSD, Rott's, Dobe's etc are not hunting dogs with blinding aggression, the reason they don't use them for those roles, big difference between guarding instinct and killing machines. Morons won't use herders to provide the aggression they are looking for because they have to train them or find fear biters and what breeders of constantly hard herders trainable in defence and attack will sell to morons??.

Pure breeds have a recognised standard..........unstable aggression is a breed fault in the major working breeds, there is a defence to their existance if the odd one does bite someone, but what's the standard for a Bully crossbreed which may be killing machine who knows, where is the defence in the standards of a crossbreed??

Yes,pure breeds have recognised standard....Not always adhered to by breeders.Recent attacks by samoyds a good example. Standard says they should "display affection for all mankind"

So,standards are a matter for individual breeders whether you talk pure or cross bred.All too often standards are followed cosmeticaly only and the spirit in which they were written has been lost.This is why we see the split between working and show lines widening.

You can't say that anyone breeding crosses has no standard in mind,or that there is a breed to suit any purpose that can't be improved on.Especialy when "purpose" has been largely untested in most show lines for as long as it has.

Blind aggression is not encouraged in working dogs ,no,but a dogs black out in prey too,and often with less warning on triggers.

You say those breeding security type dogs wouldn't sell to morons- but police in some states are getting their dogs as re-homes from the general public now.

[BlackJaq]

I am speaking "aggression" in my comment of stable dogs not needing socialisation, do you think the default behaviour of all unsocialised dogs is aggression...........it's not trust me??

GSD, Rott's, Dobe's etc are not hunting dogs with blinding aggression, the reason they don't use them for those roles, big difference between guarding instinct and killing machines. Morons won't use herders to provide the aggression they are looking for because they have to train them or find fear biters and what breeders of constantly hard herders trainable in defence and attack will sell to morons??.

Pure breeds have a recognised standard..........unstable aggression is a breed fault in the major working breeds, there is a defence to their existance if the odd one does bite someone, but what's the standard for a Bully crossbreed which may be killing machine who knows, where is the defence in the standards of a crossbreed??

Aggression is not the only reason that dogs bite. Fear, pain and even annoyance may cause a dog to bite. Sexual frustration, also, seems to be a factor, as does food protectiveness and jealousy of other dogs.

If you are referring to the Weimaraner as "hunting dogs with blinding aggression" then you obviously don't know anything about the breed. The Wei is a Retriever and blood tracker. A good gun dog will always try to retrieve the prey as is, so they will attempt to retrieve it ALIVE if the bullet did not kill it. It is then up to the hunter to kill it. They have a very soft mouth (again, good breeding should aim for this) so that a duck or rabbit retireved by the dog does not sustain any bruising or punctures which might render the meat inedible. They do not chase and kill stuff indiscriminately.

Apart from "bull arabs" and other dogs bred to take down large game manually, I cannot see how "blind aggression" would be useful in a hunting dog? Even so, a large game hunting dog must still be handleable by humans and should be able to be called off, no?

GSDs, Rottweilers and Dobes are all popular for Schutzhund competition because they have the drive and possibly even some "gameness" to hang onto a person even when under attack from the same person or accomplices. Do you not think this inclination would be dangerous with the same twerps who now prefer bull breeds? Bull breeds are not generally bred for agression either? What makes you think that a bully x is moe likely to attack than a Rottweiler x? In fact, any large breed crossed with a terrier can be prone to unstable temperaments in my experience because the purpose of the breeds clashes too much. JRT for example will happily kill mice and rats all day. Cross that with a large, powerful but low drive dog, you might end up with a large, powerful dog with the drive to catch and kill things that move quickly. This can include children on skateboards..

Your argument that these breeds are not used is not valid because they HAVE ALREADY been used in the past.

I find it hard believe that you claim to have been a dog trainer for such a long time, yet you do not know these things? Do you decline clients with cross bred dogs in case they are "killing machines"? Or only those that look like they might be bull breeds? What if they only have the looks of a bull breed but are truly lab crosses? Gun dog crosses? Short haired dogs in general? You seem fairly hateful of either all cross breds or just bull breeds in particular? Honestly this does not strike me as the mark of a dog person, especially one as experienced as you claim to be? Your description of hunting dogs makes me doubt your sanity a little.

ETA: Also, hunting dogs are supposed to have a high "prey drive", not aggression, not to mention "blinding agression". Big difference IMO.

Edited August 6, 2012 by BlackJaq

[Aphra]

Has anyone read anything sensible about why this dog did what it did?

I have some information, but because it second-hand, I can't vouch for it. I also don't want to pass it on publicly because I can't vouch for its truth, but if you'd like to PM me I will tell you what I know, with the caveat that I have no evidence, only hearsay.

[BlackJaq]

Has anyone read anything sensible about why this dog did what it did?

I have not read anything but I would really like to know what drives a "pet dog" to enter somebodies home and kill a human despite being attacked by several adults.

The dog also injuried other people beforehand. I would like to know what the behaviour was after the attack was discontinued? Was the dog restrained and thus unable to attack further? Or did he simply stop after the child was dead? I hope the royal commission will have a heavy focus on the dog's behaviour as well as the external circumstances.

If somebody told me this story and it was not on the news I probably would not have believe that a dog would go to such lengths. Unless as was mentioned earlier, he may have been traiend to attack dark skinned people. What a horrendous thought and hopefully not true.

Edited August 6, 2012 by BlackJaq

[moosmum]

The way I see it,ignorance of dog behaviour and desirable traits for task is pretty universal,and getting worse.

I resent that It took me 6 years to find dogs able to do the job there was once a breed bred for.I fought against the idea of crosses untill there was one in front of me I could not disregard.And you know what? Her traits carry reliably.I have traits that people tell me are not possible.Its not how it works.This dog and her off spring have qualities I've not seen in 30 years and blows me out,and the owners of her pups.Yes,I've monitored them.

Its been an education for me and changed the way I see things.

We still have lots to learn about both cross and pure breeds and I seriously doubt closing that door is a wise move.

Edited August 6, 2012 by moosmum

[m-sass]

I am speaking "aggression" in my comment of stable dogs not needing socialisation, do you think the default behaviour of all unsocialised dogs is aggression...........it's not trust me??

GSD, Rott's, Dobe's etc are not hunting dogs with blinding aggression, the reason they don't use them for those roles, big difference between guarding instinct and killing machines. Morons won't use herders to provide the aggression they are looking for because they have to train them or find fear biters and what breeders of constantly hard herders trainable in defence and attack will sell to morons??.

Pure breeds have a recognised standard..........unstable aggression is a breed fault in the major working breeds, there is a defence to their existance if the odd one does bite someone, but what's the standard for a Bully crossbreed which may be killing machine who knows, where is the defence in the standards of a crossbreed??

Default beahvior..? it depends on the situation, you can't say that a dog that has never done anything wrong or displayed aggression has a default behavior, if it did then it would've shown it many times!!

Hunting dogs do not have blinding aggression, i have no idea where you get your ideas from from?!

Unbalanced dogs of any breed are a problem. not just bull breeds, you need to get your head around that.

My reference to default behaviour is aggression of unsocialised dogs which some seem to think is the case, nothing to do with situations either all unsocialised dogs are aggressive or they are not??

Yes, unbalanced dogs of any breed are a potential problem in the community I agree, but there is difference, unbalanced pure breeds by the standard are duds, unbalanced dogs with no standard to follow as in cross breeds could be just that, a poor genetic combination of breed mixtures.

[m-sass]

Oh dear....M-sass...you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I would strongly suggest you do more research on Training, breeds and breeding before you come here and spout garbage.

And congratulations on once again missing the point.

I know I don't have to worry about my dogs being scooped up by the ranger mis-identified as Pitbulls so that bit of research I did right :D

[Sheridan]

Has anyone read anything sensible about why this dog did what it did?

Not in this thread.