megan_ Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 A jail term might make people who just want a dog as an ornament think twice tough. I would love to see penalties for loose and menacing dogs increased dramatically and policed. Even under the new laws, he would only have gone to jail based on the way the dog looked. If a lab kills a kid the owner doesn't go to jail under the new laws. The only people penalised are those with: i) Dogs that have previously been declared dangerous or menacing ii) Dogs that look like pitbulls, regardless of breeding. How is that just? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I feel so sorry for everyone involved in this. Ayen, her parents, her family. I feel sorry for the owner because of a couple of things he did wrong that caused this horrible event. Nobody wants their dog to do this, it is such a shame it happened. Jail is not going to fix this, he apologised to the family and they accepted. Rest In Peace Ayen. I agree. It was just a terrible accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geo Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Poor breeding producing crap dogs results in dog's that go beyond the management capabilities of the average pet owner is one of the major problems with too many bullshit excuses and reasons why a dog exhibits unneccessay aggression without genetics being appropriately taken into account. Like the sire of my old fella, withdrawn from showing because he was DA...........but some dog snapped at him once and made him aggressive yet he passes the same trait onto his son??. What people haven't learnt from any of these incidents is why it happened. M-sass your clearly blaming everything on genetics and BYB's, but it isn't as simple as that. People aren't learning why attacks happen and how to avoid them. The plain truth is any dog can and will bite given the right situation, regardless of how incredible you or anyone thinks their dog is. I have never owned a dog not knowing exactly of what it is capable of and it's triggers, it's about knowing your dog, its traits, its signals, what it needs to be a happy dog and how to avoid putting your dog in situations that will invariably provoke unwanted reactions. Some dogs will never encounter a situation that may provoke a biting reaction, but that doesn't mean they're not capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I have come to the conclusion m-sass is a troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeckoTree Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 No one knows why it happened, everything is hyperbole, I hope to god the owners don't start commenting to the media, they have all ready put out immense remorse about it, nothing can bring the kid back, no words can console, It happened that's that, it will continue to happen from time to time even if they ramp up the laws a thousand fold from what they have done. Stuff happens whether it's preventable or not, I know for a fact Australia as a nation will never be some sort of pure breed dog utopia. far out do people actually live with there heads so far in the clouds over that? I really don't know whether to laugh unknown if there's some sort of seriousness in that speak or to just feel really sad about the innocence of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinabean Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Poor breeding producing crap dogs results in dog's that go beyond the management capabilities of the average pet owner is one of the major problems with too many bullshit excuses and reasons why a dog exhibits unneccessay aggression without genetics being appropriately taken into account. Like the sire of my old fella, withdrawn from showing because he was DA...........but some dog snapped at him once and made him aggressive yet he passes the same trait onto his son??. What people haven't learnt from any of these incidents is why it happened. M-sass your clearly blaming everything on genetics and BYB's, but it isn't as simple as that. People aren't learning why attacks happen and how to avoid them. The plain truth is any dog can and will bite given the right situation, regardless of how incredible you or anyone thinks their dog is. I have never owned a dog not knowing exactly of what it is capable of and it's triggers, it's about knowing your dog, its traits, its signals, what it needs to be a happy dog and how to avoid putting your dog in situations that will invariably provoke unwanted reactions. Some dogs will never encounter a situation that may provoke a biting reaction, but that doesn't mean they're not capable. Well said Geo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-sass Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) A jail term might make people who just want a dog as an ornament think twice tough. I would love to see penalties for loose and menacing dogs increased dramatically and policed. Even under the new laws, he would only have gone to jail based on the way the dog looked. If a lab kills a kid the owner doesn't go to jail under the new laws. The only people penalised are those with: i) Dogs that have previously been declared dangerous or menacing ii) Dogs that look like pitbulls, regardless of breeding. How is that just? Pitbull's and look a likes are a restricted breed with the same houing requirements as declared dangerous dogs, they are supposed to be muzzled in public to begin with so if they are biting someone to death there is a muzzle breach could be a justification for jail where non restricted/dangerous breeds don't have muzzle requirements? And why on earth do you seem to think pedigree dogs are in such great shape we can dispense with every thing else.Better breeding practices are needed all 'round. Are you serious?, you think the BYB's put in the same efforts to breed a quality healthy dog as the dedicated registered breeders Edited July 31, 2012 by m-sass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Breaking news that the owner of the dog that killed Ayen Chen has been fined $11,000. No other news yet. That would just cover funeral costs! how disgraceful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-sass Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Poor breeding producing crap dogs results in dog's that go beyond the management capabilities of the average pet owner is one of the major problems with too many bullshit excuses and reasons why a dog exhibits unneccessay aggression without genetics being appropriately taken into account. Like the sire of my old fella, withdrawn from showing because he was DA...........but some dog snapped at him once and made him aggressive yet he passes the same trait onto his son??. What people haven't learnt from any of these incidents is why it happened. M-sass your clearly blaming everything on genetics and BYB's, but it isn't as simple as that. People aren't learning why attacks happen and how to avoid them. The plain truth is any dog can and will bite given the right situation, regardless of how incredible you or anyone thinks their dog is. I have never owned a dog not knowing exactly of what it is capable of and it's triggers, it's about knowing your dog, its traits, its signals, what it needs to be a happy dog and how to avoid putting your dog in situations that will invariably provoke unwanted reactions. Some dogs will never encounter a situation that may provoke a biting reaction, but that doesn't mean they're not capable. It is as simple as genetics, some dogs have a predisposition for aggression and some don't. If a dog is so fixated on the chase and slaughter factor as a natural instinct as Ayen's killer was, it's not fit and stable enough to be in the community as a supposed family pet, wrong type of dog for that environment. Saying that all dogs are capable of biting as an excuse for what Ayen's killer did is a big difference with a dog biting in defence of having a kid stick it's finger in the dogs eye when cornered than dog shooting across from the other side of the road to "get em" then barging into the house after someone else then redirecting onto a poor little girl hanging onto her mum's legs in fear and killing her...........get with it please and admit that the dog was a piece of crap and accept that it was a landshark at all levels. Who can seriously say their own dog slipping under the roller door would do that, and I am damn sure it wasn't trained to that either?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Poor breeding producing crap dogs results in dog's that go beyond the management capabilities of the average pet owner is one of the major problems with too many bullshit excuses and reasons why a dog exhibits unneccessay aggression without genetics being appropriately taken into account. Like the sire of my old fella, withdrawn from showing because he was DA...........but some dog snapped at him once and made him aggressive yet he passes the same trait onto his son??. What people haven't learnt from any of these incidents is why it happened. M-sass your clearly blaming everything on genetics and BYB's, but it isn't as simple as that. People aren't learning why attacks happen and how to avoid them. The plain truth is any dog can and will bite given the right situation, regardless of how incredible you or anyone thinks their dog is. I have never owned a dog not knowing exactly of what it is capable of and it's triggers, it's about knowing your dog, its traits, its signals, what it needs to be a happy dog and how to avoid putting your dog in situations that will invariably provoke unwanted reactions. Some dogs will never encounter a situation that may provoke a biting reaction, but that doesn't mean they're not capable. It is as simple as genetics, some dogs have a predisposition for aggression and some don't. If a dog is so fixated on the chase and slaughter factor as a natural instinct as Ayen's killer was, it's not fit and stable enough to be in the community as a supposed family pet, wrong type of dog for that environment. Saying that all dogs are capable of biting as an excuse for what Ayen's killer did is a big difference with a dog biting in defence of having a kid stick it's finger in the dogs eye when cornered than dog shooting across from the other side of the road to "get em" then barging into the house after someone else then redirecting onto a poor little girl hanging onto her mum's legs in fear and killing her...........get with it please and admit that the dog was a piece of crap and accept that it was a landshark at all levels. Who can seriously say their own dog slipping under the roller door would do that, and I am damn sure it wasn't trained to that either?? you talk such garbage and once again have turned a thread into something totally unrelated......do you ever have anything constructive or knowledgeable to say? And once again "Landshark" should not be used to describe any k9 behaviour, its an uneducated remark and uncalled for. Edited July 31, 2012 by TheCheekyMonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeckoTree Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 look a likes are not restricted breeds, in RBL they are the scapegoats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) A jail term might make people who just want a dog as an ornament think twice tough. I would love to see penalties for loose and menacing dogs increased dramatically and policed. Even under the new laws, he would only have gone to jail based on the way the dog looked. If a lab kills a kid the owner doesn't go to jail under the new laws. The only people penalised are those with: i) Dogs that have previously been declared dangerous or menacing ii) Dogs that look like pitbulls, regardless of breeding. How is that just? Pitbull's and look a likes are a restricted breed with the same houing requirements as declared dangerous dogs, they are supposed to be muzzled in public to begin with so if they are biting someone to death there is a muzzle breach could be a justification for jail where non restricted/dangerous breeds don't have muzzle requirements? And why on earth do you seem to think pedigree dogs are in such great shape we can dispense with every thing else.Better breeding practices are needed all 'round. Are you serious?, you think the BYB's put in the same efforts to breed a quality healthy dog as the dedicated registered breeders Are you saying if we only have pedigree dogs to choose from there won't be ever be another Ayen Chol!?! And that no one who breeds a cross bred deliberately can have a long term goal or be working towards anything worthy? Do you think evolution and development has been served,all finished in pedigree dogs only ? And that it can only get better regardless of issues that are only beginning to be understood ? O.K. Edited July 31, 2012 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 FYI m-sass not all registered breeders are ethical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geo Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Poor breeding producing crap dogs results in dog's that go beyond the management capabilities of the average pet owner is one of the major problems with too many bullshit excuses and reasons why a dog exhibits unneccessay aggression without genetics being appropriately taken into account. Like the sire of my old fella, withdrawn from showing because he was DA...........but some dog snapped at him once and made him aggressive yet he passes the same trait onto his son??. What people haven't learnt from any of these incidents is why it happened. M-sass your clearly blaming everything on genetics and BYB's, but it isn't as simple as that. People aren't learning why attacks happen and how to avoid them. The plain truth is any dog can and will bite given the right situation, regardless of how incredible you or anyone thinks their dog is. I have never owned a dog not knowing exactly of what it is capable of and it's triggers, it's about knowing your dog, its traits, its signals, what it needs to be a happy dog and how to avoid putting your dog in situations that will invariably provoke unwanted reactions. Some dogs will never encounter a situation that may provoke a biting reaction, but that doesn't mean they're not capable. It is as simple as genetics, some dogs have a predisposition for aggression and some don't. If a dog is so fixated on the chase and slaughter factor as a natural instinct as Ayen's killer was, it's not fit and stable enough to be in the community as a supposed family pet, wrong type of dog for that environment. Saying that all dogs are capable of biting as an excuse for what Ayen's killer did is a big difference with a dog biting in defence of having a kid stick it's finger in the dogs eye when cornered than dog shooting across from the other side of the road to "get em" then barging into the house after someone else then redirecting onto a poor little girl hanging onto her mum's legs in fear and killing her...........get with it please and admit that the dog was a piece of crap and accept that it was a landshark at all levels. Who can seriously say their own dog slipping under the roller door would do that, and I am damn sure it wasn't trained to that either?? You should learn to read posts before commenting. I did not excuse that dogs behavior. What happened to the poor little girl is tragic, and sad beyond belief. However you think that registered pure breeds are incapable of such attacks, and you are wrong, very very wrong, so wrong. All dogs prior to human interference had to hunt, chase and kill their prey to survive, hence any dog is capable of the aforementioned behaviors. This is inate behavior and yes genetics, it can be controlled, trained but never eliminated by environmental conditions (nature v's nurture, which is not controllable in humans so good luck controlling it in animals) Once you have isolated all the "prey drive" genes, or whatever gene you think causes dog aggression towards humans, only then will you succeed with your wish of having a dog that you think will not bite..... and then you will still be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncarter Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 what about the amstaff? a dog that is very similar genetically and in phenotype to APBT (correct me if im wrong). I find it very odd that the recent crackdown on Pit Bulls and X's in Victoria, excludes amstaffs. Not that i agree with it but going by their logic that appearance predicts behaviour, why didnt they go after Amstaffs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frufru Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I seriously question a world in which a child's life is worth $4000 and this was not an "Accident" The dog attacked at least 4 people - killing one of them - this is not a dog that should have been kept as a family pet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 what about the amstaff? a dog that is very similar genetically and in phenotype to APBT (correct me if im wrong). I find it very odd that the recent crackdown on Pit Bulls and X's in Victoria, excludes amstaffs. Not that i agree with it but going by their logic that appearance predicts behaviour, why didnt they go after Amstaffs? It doesn't exclude them. Unpapered amstaffs are in as much danger as any other pit type dog. Same goes for unpapered staffys and any other bull breed type dog without certain parentage... There is a checklist and if the dog meets a certain score based on the checklist, they can be deemed pit bull type.. There is more to it but that is the crux of it.. Papered dogs are safe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumosmum Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Yep, un papered amstaff dogs are safe if a Vet will write a certificate stating the dog is an amstaff, but most vets will not do that. Some will, but very hard to find. A vet certificate stating anything else will not make a dog safe though. It has to say American Staffordshire Terrier. Not a desex cert or microchip certificate, it must be a proper certificate written to state the breed AST by a Vet. A lot of the dogs that have been killed are not pitbulls, and don't even match the standard. One has been declared who only met half the standard. An awful lot of dogs will meet half the standard. And the temperament of these dogs has never been questioned, in fact, it has been said even by witnesses for councils that these are nice dogs. The inquest into the Ayen case will be very interesting. Finally we may even see a photo of the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frufru Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) seriously, words fail me :mad Edited August 1, 2012 by frufru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumosmum Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I don't understand why the actual owner was not fined as well. Was he? The person who was charged was the father of the owner I believe, but I would have expected that they both would have been fined. I know the laws on this have changed since this horrible event, but does anyone know if the owner was also in trouble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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