megan_ Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Leash on, pull him away, use a non-reward marker (I say "too bad" in a neutral tone), all play stops, calmly lead him away, get in the car and go home....he'll cotton on pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Leash on, pull him away, use a non-reward marker (I say "too bad" in a neutral tone), all play stops, calmly lead him away, get in the car and go home....he'll cotton on pretty quickly. this will start as of tonight!! and hopefully it works, I have really tried to nip this mounting nonsense in the butt, though I have just really never known how and hoped he would get over it, (honestly I have just stopped taking him to the dog park pretty much since he started about 3 months ago this weekend is the first time his been back in a good month or so). He used to be such a well mannered pup what happened!. I guess another part is do I need to look at re training...... I think he has lost the understanding that I am Boss and that purely my fault for not being consistent... but how do you re teach all focus on you? Edited July 31, 2012 by TheCheekyMonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Look up NILIF on the forum, probably in the training thread. It's a good program to get the dog back into line :) He is a teenager though so this is when they start testing you, it's normal IMO, but you should nip it in the bud now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeckoTree Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Should I Be Concerned? No, I don't think so. I don't think you should be. But you is you, and you can be if you want to be. But I wouldn't be. You is you, and me is me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 Should I Be Concerned? No, I don't think so. I don't think you should be. But you is you, and you can be if you want to be. But I wouldn't be. You is you, and me is me. Thanks Dr. Suess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think it is possible to find balance. My girl, for example, loves Cosmolo's dogs, especially Gilbert. She doesn't like most dogs but adores him. She stays at their house on a semi-regular basis with lots of free play and goes for walks with Mr Cosmolo every week. She loves Cosmolo too. Y et I can place her in a sit, on a beach, sitting amongst Cosmolo's dogs and she won't break. When we're working we can walk past her dogs who are placed in a drop and she won't even stop for a sniff. Why? Because she is a very motivated little worker, I work her in drive (most probably not properly, but Steve hasn't re-released his WID program so I muddle my way though :-)), and I pay her for her work. My boy is the same and he gets free play almost every day with select dogs. I can call him off from play and train at a local off leash park with dogs zooming around us. That said, I never just let them off leash and walk away. We always play a game after the leash is released and he checks in for permission before running off. To the OP, I went to a workshop run by Cosmolo on reading dog body language. It was very interesting and even though I consider myself well-versed in these things I learnt a thing or two. It might be worth seeing if something similar runs in your area? I agree with deelee, your dog's reaction might be appropriate, the trick is to step in before it reaches that point. Yes, you can have dogs that have value for other dogs but higher value for the handler, but as I said it depends on your goals. Plenty of people like that their dogs play with others and don't care if it compromises obedience. If your goal was to have a sport or working dog that was neutral to other dogs then it would be counter intuitive to risk that by allowing free play and value for other dogs to develop. There is no right or wrong as everyone's goals are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't agree with the statement that free play with other dogs compromises obedience. I think it's more complex than that. Reward history, level of training, maintenance of training, level of motivation etc all come into play. This is where people go wrong- it's not just the free play element that does it. My dogs have alot of interaction with other dogs- but they'd all sell their souls to work with me instead. What Megan said :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 what is work and what is play, is working and playing with a human the same as just playing with another dog? My dog has such enjoyment when playing with other dogs, he will also choose to play fetch with me instead..... but he will get over it, and go back to playing with the other dogs. does this mean I need to carry more games with me? or once his done playing with me its game over and we are going home? I guess his the decision maker and not me in this scenario isnt he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't agree with the statement that free play with other dogs compromises obedience. I think it's more complex than that. Reward history, level of training, maintenance of training, level of motivation etc all come into play. This is where people go wrong- it's not just the free play element that does it. My dogs have alot of interaction with other dogs- but they'd all sell their souls to work with me instead. What Megan said :) I didn't say free play automatically compromises obedience. I said whether you'd encourage your dog to develop a positive value for others is dependent on your goals and it is a risk to allow free play if you want a neutral dog. Some people are happy to take that risk and to have a dog that values other dogs and enjoys free play, others don't want that so don't encourage lots of free play. As I said there is no right or wrong, it just depends on what you want from your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) what is work and what is play, is working and playing with a human the same as just playing with another dog? My dog has such enjoyment when playing with other dogs, he will also choose to play fetch with me instead..... but he will get over it, and go back to playing with the other dogs. does this mean I need to carry more games with me? or once his done playing with me its game over and we are going home? I guess his the decision maker and not me in this scenario isnt he? I think work and play should be the same thing to a dog, they need to get enjoyment out of it so they have a high value for working with you above anything else. Having a dog that is distracted easily by others is a really common problem faced by lots of dog owners, and it happens when the dog has a higher value for other dogs than they do their owner and the rewards you have to offer. Think about all the things your dog loves doing and rank them on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being their most favourite thing. Where do you 'rank' on that list? What does your dog find most rewarding aside from other dogs? Getting your dog to work under the distraction of other dogs is something that can take time as you will need to build their value for the reward and you (the reward can change depending on what your dog values - food, tug, fetch etc). It doesn't happen overnight but with consistency and good training it is definitely possible! ETA: The other thing I would add is that you should always finish a game (like tug or fetch) leaving your dog wanting more. Never wait for your dog to say 'ok, I've had enough. This is boring, what else is fun around here?'. If that means you only play fetch for 30 seconds, then that is all you play so that next time you bring the ball out your dog is super excited and can't wait for more. The duration you play a game can be increased easily enough, but it's important to make sure your dog is always desperate for more. Edited July 31, 2012 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Huski - while I agree that it can be a problem, I have noticed that it seems to occur far more when the owner doesn't build a proper reward system in training and then expects the dog to want to work for them out of 'respect', regardless of whether they play with other dogs or not.tHey then Blane other dogs, distractions etc for non- performance. My dogs value other dogs, but they value working a lot more. Sure, it would be easier if they didn't value other dogs at all, but given my set of circumstances - I work long hours -,that wouldn't be much of a life for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Huski - while I agree that it can be a problem, I have noticed that it seems to occur far more when the owner doesn't build a proper reward system in training and then expects the dog to want to work for them out of 'respect', regardless of whether they play with other dogs or not.tHey then Blane other dogs, distractions etc for non- performance. My dogs value other dogs, but they value working a lot more. Sure, it would be easier if they didn't value other dogs at all, but given my set of circumstances - I work long hours -,that wouldn't be much of a life for them. I don't think there is a right or wrong, just doing what you want to do and what works to achieve your goals. Lots of people take their dogs to dog parks and allow free play and end up with a dog they can't control because their value for other dogs is so high and I agree a huge part of that is their failure to build value for the handler, but why create more work for yourself if you don't need to? I could socialise a puppy to value other dogs but then I'd have to put the work in to ensure their value always stays higher for me. If you have a neutral dog it makes it easier because there is little to no positive value there to begin with. I'm not saying it's for everyone, I just find it easier for me to reach my goals. I often work long hours too and my dogs are home alone for a long period of time during the day (and then when I come home I spend more time working at night) but I don't need free play with other dogs to wear them out or make them happy. Edited July 31, 2012 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Think about all the things your dog loves doing and rank them on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being their most favourite thing. Where do you 'rank' on that list? What does your dog find most rewarding aside from other dogs? Getting your dog to work under the distraction of other dogs is something that can take time as you will need to build their value for the reward and you (the reward can change depending on what your dog values - food, tug, fetch etc). It doesn't happen overnight but with consistency and good training it is definitely possible! I rank highest on that list of my dog in every regard. She's been allowed free play since she was a baby, even at dog parks (gasp). She was left with my older dog from 13 or 14 weeks old. I let her play before and after obedience/agility classes. If we're in a training session on the oval and another dog comes and wants to play, I break off the session and let her play. One minute she can have a game of bitey face with a dog outside the obedience ring and the next she can be in that ring, working. Then she can do out of sight stays next to that same dog. Neutralisation is very hard work no matter which way you choose to do it. I see neutralisation as "more work for myself" rather than letting the value build itself naturally. As you say, there is no right or wrong :) Edit: Obviously my dog is not neutralised :p Her value for me build naturally with time and training. Edited July 31, 2012 by wuffles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I rank highest on that list of my dog in every regard. She's been allowed free play since she was a baby, even at dog parks (gasp). She was left with my older dog from 13 or 14 weeks old. I let her play before and after obedience/agility classes. If we're in a training session on the oval and another dog comes and wants to play, I break off the session and let her play. One minute she can have a game of bitey face with a dog outside the obedience ring and the next she can be in that ring, working. Then she can do out of sight stays next to that same dog. Neutralisation is very hard work no matter which way you choose to do it. I see neutralisation as "more work for myself" rather than letting the value build itself naturally. As you say, there is no right or wrong :) Edit: Obviously my dog is not neutralised :p Her value for me build naturally with time and training. I definitely don't think that dogs that aren't neutral can't work well, I am sure they can. Though I would wonder if a dog who has just played with another dog outside the ring immediately before going in to compete is really going to give 120% - not aiming that at you specifically obviously as I don't know you or your dog but it would be something I would be asking myself. It really comes down to personal preference, I don't have a need or desire to have a dog that wants to play lots with other dogs, and I don't think raising a dog to be neutral is lots of hard work. Certainly IMO no more work than teaching your dog other dogs have a high value then having to also teach them and reinforce that you are always of a higher value. I don't think people who let their dogs play with others have anything to prove, I'm just not interested in raising a dog that way myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) huski, Kenz seldom is allowed to play with other dogs but it does remind me of a time when my friends BC and Kenz had been playing outside the ring at training one evening. We happened to then take them both into the ring at the same time (have two training rings set up). Her dog did a runner and came into the ring and Kenz went bugger off I am in work mode now. I think it comes down to the individual dog and particular breeds are more in tune to their owners then other breeds. The hardest part I find of the "neutral" to other dogs concept is not avoiding the positive associations but avoiding frigging morons who seem to want to help my young one build an even more negative association. If anything its not the positive associations that bother me and the reason I avoid letting dogs interact but what happens when it all goes pearshaped. I have had dogs on the receiving end of attacks and they have had lasting consequences . Edited August 1, 2012 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 huski, Kenz seldom is allowed to play with other dogs but it does remind me of a time when my friends BC and Kenz had been playing outside the ring at training one evening. We happened to then take them both into the ring at the same time (have two training rings set up). Her dog did a runner and came into the ring and Kenz went bugger off I am in work mode now. I think it comes down to the individual dog and particular breeds are more in tune to their owners then other breeds. If she doesn't have much if little value for other dogs than allowing play in that situation probably didn't make a big difference to her ability to work. But if play with other dogs is something that is allowed all the time and the dog does have a high value for other dogs then I do think it could make a difference to the dog's ability to give everything it has to give, especially if it's just gotten a reward not associated with the handler prior to going into the ring. It may not make a difference to some dogs but allowing your dog to constantly seek reward away from the handler can effect training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 It may not make a difference to some dogs but allowing your dog to constantly seek reward away from the handler can effect training. Totally agree with this bit! :) I do make sure that I control what is happening, so she is not allowed to release herself to go play or to her reward or anything else. I do have trouble with PEOPLE wanting to constantly feed her, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Before Gus is aloud to leave my side, I always give a release queue, If I haven’t and he breaks a sit I do put him back on lead for a lap around the park then try again.... Its really only the mounting and this incident that I want to get grasp of before it gets WAY out of control...I think he has difficulty understanding his play can be ended when I say so, not when he feels like its over.... I think Meegs suggestion of as soon as he mounts pull him away, back on lead, negative marker and leaving would work well, so I will do this when he mounts the next dog. I think really nailing TOT will help a lot as well, so I am revisiting this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 It may not make a difference to some dogs but allowing your dog to constantly seek reward away from the handler can effect training. Totally agree with this bit! :) I do make sure that I control what is happening, so she is not allowed to release herself to go play or to her reward or anything else. I do have trouble with PEOPLE wanting to constantly feed her, though LOL my dog is definitely a 'self feeder'. People don't even have to offer their food to her and she's keen to take it! Though, I do a bit of work with her to trick her so she has learnt that even if food looks free it isn't if it's not coming from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-sass Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) Huski - while I agree that it can be a problem, I have noticed that it seems to occur far more when the owner doesn't build a proper reward system in training and then expects the dog to want to work for them out of 'respect', regardless of whether they play with other dogs or not.tHey then Blane other dogs, distractions etc for non- performance. My dogs value other dogs, but they value working a lot more. Sure, it would be easier if they didn't value other dogs at all, but given my set of circumstances - I work long hours -,that wouldn't be much of a life for them. I don't think there is a right or wrong, just doing what you want to do and what works to achieve your goals. Lots of people take their dogs to dog parks and allow free play and end up with a dog they can't control because their value for other dogs is so high and I agree a huge part of that is their failure to build value for the handler, but why create more work for yourself if you don't need to? I could socialise a puppy to value other dogs but then I'd have to put the work in to ensure their value always stays higher for me. If you have a neutral dog it makes it easier because there is little to no positive value there to begin with. I'm not saying it's for everyone, I just find it easier for me to reach my goals. I often work long hours too and my dogs are home alone for a long period of time during the day (and then when I come home I spend more time working at night) but I don't need free play with other dogs to wear them out or make them happy. To achieve behaviour where a dog has value for other dogs with handler over-ride is the least common achievement I have seen the average dog owner ever master, whilst not impossible, it's difficult without having exceptional training skills generally beyond the scope of average. The best behaviour I have seen from average owners are dogs sensitised neutrally towards other dogs and the worse by far are the dogs allowed to freely run amock at dog parks from my observations over the years. Neutralisation is very hard work no matter which way you choose to do it. I see neutralisation as "more work for myself" rather than letting the value build itself naturally. As you say, there is no right or wrong Genetic handler focus is a sought after trait selected in 8 weeks old pups by many performance/working dog owners, the pup who retrieves and wants to work with a person over playing with litter mates are not hard work to neutralise to any distractions as the trait of focus seems to carry through into maturity in most cases. Easily distractable dogs are hard to neutralise and success either way I think depends on the individual dog to a certain degree. Edited August 1, 2012 by m-sass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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