To Treat Or Not To Treat?

[Heston1]

Morning All,

Hoping for some advise regarding utilising treats as part of training. After having a few bad days with toilet training our little BC ball of fluff Pup, Heston, poos and wees in his crate(not his fault, ours really we had some problems with consistency!) I decided to start using treats when taking him outside to pee, this seems to be working and we are now on a very strict regime of crate, toilet, play!

My question is, are treats worth using as part of training or is it better to reward Heston with our "happy" voices? Do BC pups respond better to training with treats or are there better ways of rewarding Heston?

[megan_]

I don't work for free, I don't expect my dogs to either!

My dogs don't get "treats" as such, but their normal food. They are never fed out of their foodbowl and get all their food "working" (ie training). The trick is not to use it as a bribe (ie use the treats to lure him outside) but rather use it as a reward.

I never go anywhere with my dogs without a pocket full of food, ready to reward them for a job well done.

[JulesP]

It really depends on the individual dog. My 2 border collies love praise so I don't need to carry around treats.

I would use what ever worked :) praise, treats, toys, getting something they want etc And you don't need to stick to the one reward either.

Watch that Heston doesn't start to pretend to wee so that he can get to the treat/play bit quicker! BC are super clever and can use that power for evil

[Kavik]

I use treats and toys in training :)

Like megan said - I wouldn't work for free! Don't forget that there are also environmental rewards - the opportunity to sniff, play, meet a dog or person, can also be used to reward your dog.

[luvsdogs]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Border Collies. They are the best dogs. I have to say Heston is gorgeous.

Have a look at this site. Scroll down the whole page & the red print will take you to the links you need.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/puppys-first-week-home-8-9-weeks

You can download Before You Get Your Puppy for free & you used to also be able to download After You Get Your Puppy. Haven't been there for a while so not sure. Go to the Training Textbook & the drop down menus will give you lots of info.

[mel_]

I agree with Jules, it depends on the dog :) I find treats work best for training mine, he's really food motivated.

[Sydoo]

Watch that Heston doesn't start to pretend to wee so that he can get to the treat/play bit quicker! BC are super clever and can use that power for evil

Billie did this as a puppy...cheeky little things! She still tries it on occasionally on cold mornings so she can get back inside quickly.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Sydoo

[W Sibs]

NILIF :)

Emmy, my JS, is all about cuddles. She is 2 now and still to this day, whenever she goes outside to go do her business, she still runs inside for cuddles. When we are outside and after she goes to the toilet, she runs and jumps in my arms for cuddles.. she is a funny one that once.

Whereas the boys, Charlie (3 years old) and Skeeter (12 weeks old), they aren't fussed about rewards after going to the toilet, so I just don't do anything. I tried to reward them and praised them, and they were like 'whatever' and just continue exploring or whatever.

I don't really carry treats around because none of my 3 aren't food motivated, so their reward is usually a "free" to go explore or a massive play session.

[minimax]

I teach my pups to pee on command, so treats are essential. Plus they are pugs, and saying they are food motivated is putting it lightly

Sometimes Max, 9 months, still does a pretend wee (even though she hardly ever gets treats for wees anymore, since she's fully toilet trained), but since she uses a pee pad it's really noticeble that nothing comes out. I guess on grass it wouldn't be as easy to tell that they are just messing with you to get free food!

[persephone]

Most of our dogs never get treats- they get praise .

That said .. make sure treats are just that ..and not bribes .

How often are you taking pup outside? and how long is he expected to hold on for? You may be expecting a bit much ?

[Pretty Miss Emma]

My older BC works for treats (I get better results with that), the 16 week pup mostly is working for praise (loves a treat but not essential). I think depends on the dog!! I do use treats to help learn to go to the toilet on cue. And also even if you start with treats you can use them in conjunction with praise and then start fading them and using mainly the praise.

Horses for courses!

But I think the main thing is the consistency and the routine, with BC's the moment they see inconsistency they'll take advantage of it (ok, well that's my experience so far!!!). Little Hamish is pretty much toilet trained, he knocks at the door to go out, but I expect that if I take him out he goes to the toilet (there is no play/treats/exploring until he has done a wee). So he will go every single time I take him out even if it was only 5 minutes earlier that he was taken out.

[BCNut]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Border Collies. They are the best dogs. I have to say Heston is gorgeous.

Have a look at this site. Scroll down the whole page & the red print will take you to the links you need.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/puppys-first-week-home-8-9-weeks

You can download Before You Get Your Puppy for free & you used to also be able to download After You Get Your Puppy. Haven't been there for a while so not sure. Go to the Training Textbook & the drop down menus will give you lots of info.

Agree with this, Ian Dunbar's toilet training method has worked best for my young BC. Started with treats, but phased them out to praise and pats :)

You can always leave a bag of whatever it is that he likes near his toilet somewhere (I put some in a tree :laugh: ) so you don't have to remember to take them with you everytime. You'll find he catches on pretty quick.

But I also agree that its about finding Heston's currency; be it the type of food rewards he likes, or you might find a game of tug or a throw of the ball is more reinforcing for him.

I find as Calvin is getting older, a game of tug is his favourite thing :)

[dancinbcs]

I have never needed treats to toilet train a Border Collie puppy but I have never allowed one to make the mistake of toileting in a crate either. That is a big set back so use whatever gets results now and make sure he doesn't make any more errors. I start toilet training the puppies I breed at 4 weeks and by 8 weeks they are almost trained. My male puppies have all pretty much been 100% by 10 weeks with the girls taking a little longer to get bladder control.

[Heston1]

Thanks all for your advise! We had a great day yesterday and everyone is correct, consistency was the key. I think I've found his weak spot, a good game of chase after he goes toilet, he loves it! And we've got much better at taking him out more frequently. He hasn't toileted in the crate again, but we definitely learnt a very valuable lesson - he cannot come in until he goes toilet, take him more often then we think is necessary and we have been waking up twice over night to take him out. So we are being much better trained! I think we should treat ourselves as well :)

Thanks luvsdogs - he is the sweetest little thing, and just such a delight to have in our family

Thanks all for your help, :)

[JulesP]

Not to be a party pooper but I would probably avoid playing chasey with Heston. It tends to muck up the recall. When I am teaching my puppy classes I can always tell who has been playing chasey as the pups run to Mummy and Daddy nicely for the recall but then dart off again instead of staying with them. They are then really annoying to catch!

[Heston1]

Ahaa... Good point! We shall try and find another vice! :)

[espinay2]

The important thing to remember is that a 'reward' is not what you think should be rewarding, but what your dog actually does find rewarding.

No use insisting you 'will only use X as a reward' if it doesn't work for that dog.

This may or may not be treats and could be any nomber of things including a particular game, toy, pat, praise, a type of treat etc etc. It is up to you to work out what that is.

Treats are used a lot because to many dogs they ARE a reward to a greater or lesser extent - not all but most - so this is usually the first thing tried. It is also easier to use treats in a wider range of situations as they are small, portable, dont take much space or time to deliver, and can be delivered less distractingly in the presence of other dogs.

Some dogs have a few different things they may find rewarding - some more rewarding than others. You can use ALL of them to reward the dog at different times. For example, saving the thing they find the most rewarding as a 'jackpot' for when they do something really well.

When it comes to house training, I will say though that I often only use praise and occasionally some other reward. What is important with house training is CONSISTENCY (as you have noted). Take the pup out frequently to toilet in the right spot (this may mean several times during the night at first) and immediately change any soiled bedding so they don't associate the bedding with the smell (which encourages them to go there again).

Yes, it can take a little patience and you may lose sleep at first. I have had a new pup here for the last week and I know what I am talking about! LOL! But with consistency she is quickly getting the hang of it, despite being used to going on her bedding and having a couple of accidents in her crate the first evening when I wasn't quick enough. At the moment she goes out about midnight before my OH goes to bed, and wakes up around 3.30 at which time I take her out again and she toilets (straight out on lead and straight back in - I don't talk to her much or pat her or play with her - we are out there for a reason - I give quiet praise when she goes and then it is straight back to bed). Then she is up when I get up at 6 am. The period between toilet stops at night is slowly getting longer even after one week (remembering at this age they really have not much bladder control to speak of) and we have had no accidents since the first day. She is now getting very good at telling me when she needs to go, but I make sure she goes out regularly regardless.

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