Help! Dog Developed Aversion To Our Best Walking Spot

[Wobbly]

Well the thread about her injury is here (definitely not required reading, just there for interest, it's a soft tissue injury): http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/239317-sluggish-stiffish-gait-please-help/

It was a sprain I believe she got swimming after ducks when she was insufficiently warmed up. It was a very painful injury for her, so now when we get to the walk spot, she just doesn't want to go in at all. She flat out refuses to go with my husband, just plonks herself on the ground and won't move. She will go with me, but she's not at all happy about it, she kept stopping and giving me "Let's go home now" looks. I want her to love it again, is that possible?

It's such a great spot to walk, and crucially it's my spot where there is never anyone else. She is not immediately reactive to other dogs, but we had incidents of her biting other dogs when I first got her (adolescent from pound) and although nothings happened for years and she's fine with known dogs in controlled, calm environments I wouldn't ever trust her off leash with unknown dogs. So this spot is pretty important to us for her off leash runs. She is strictly on leash for another week or so until I'm positive she's all healed up, and I'm also not going to take her there until I'm sure she's 100% on top of the world again.

She LOVES her frisbee, more than anything else in the world - it's the best most exciting thing ever. She goes mental for it. I could use this in my favour for sure. She's also quite food driven, not as much as she is frisbee driven but she's still very, very keen on treats, so I could use this too. She has some tricks, she enjoys doing them but I don't think enough to get her over this, at least not initially.

I am really not the best trainer out there, so I would love to hear suggestions and advice as I want to fix this, and I really don't want to inadvertantly do the wrong thing and make the aversion worse.

Look forward to hearing from people and appreciate any help

Edited July 26, 2012 by Wobbly

[Guest RosieFT]

I am no dog trainer but can sympathise! When Rosie was a young dog I took her out in teh rain for a walk, the rain turned into a storm and we were still 5 mins from home when a lightening bolt lit up the sky VERY close to us and then the loudest thunder I have ever heard clapped almost on top of us and i actually gave a little scream and a jump.

Rosie from then on HATED that stretch of road, she would pull back to stop going down it and if I insisted (it was the last part of a walk around the block to home) she would run forward and choke herself trying to get along it as fast as possible, tail between her legs and obviously highly stressed.

I tried treats, i tried reassurance.. nothing worked. In the end I avoided the road for a few months, then started walking past it, then slowly got closer to it and eventually, months later, she got over it. We can now use it and there is no reaction from her.

But I have just finished reading a training book that talked about negative association and the ramifications in some dogs can stay with them for years.

Hopefully someone can help you with some advice.

[Erny]

RosieFT was on the right track. Don't push the issue nor make going to that spot the point of the exercise. Just take things nice and casually and when you are the closest you can be to the area but before your dog begins to feel anxious (watch for this as overt body language signs are often only noticed when the anxiety has already well and truly been circulating) include bucket loads of reinforcement. Get your dog to work for you as mental stimulation off the target problem helps heaps.

This sort of situation is where using training in drive techniques is really helpful and is usually what I would turn to assist. The point of it is to not cross the dogs threshold to the point that food or drive is suppressed by anxiety, but simultaneously being conscious of pushing the envelope bit by bit in a way preferably that the dog was not overly aware of.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Erny

[Wobbly]

Thanks Rosie and Erny,

I really appreciate your advice.

Especially since its advice that will be easy for us to follow. We are good with the easy stuff - ToT for example is an automatic given in our house, so simple & effective, but I'm terrible with the more difficult stuff, I wanted to try obedience trials at one point, but had trouble wrapping my brain around the courses, so I never managed it.

I'm happy to hear Rosie is fine on that stretch of road now, your success makes me think we will get over this without fuss so long as I approach it right. I will do exactly as you have both suggested.

So this is my plan, it's simple enough I am confident with it:

We'll avoid the area for a little while to begin with. we are enjoying our walks around the suburb at the moment (we haven't done this much, so it's interesting for both of us to explore) so we can leave it a few weeks before tackling the issue. This also fits in with the need to make sure she's 100% better before we embark on our rehab program too.

Our spot is an old quarry with an approx 1km bush track leading to it. I drew a picture of the geography so I can detail my plan clearly. Its very much not to scale, but will serve.

Gate: She is fine going through the gate to the track.

Bush Loop (Blue): 1 week here.

About 200m down from the gate there is a bush track loop. She is completely happy to go down that track, it's where my husband took her when she wouldnt go all the way to the quarry with him. So I think we will start walking that loop to begin with. Perhaps a week of walking here? On leash or off leash? I think she feels more secure on leash, so perhaps on leash is better, at least to start with?

Half Way mark (Green): 2 weeks here.

Anxiety likely starts here, but is very mild. As you say Ernie, the body language is not overt at this point, but trepidation has begun, she didn't stop, but slowed to look back over her shoulder when I took her, my husband reported the same. Happily enough, just at this spot there is a reasonable sized grassy area, and I will do as you suggested Ernie, use drive and have a little game of frisbee here with her. I think perhaps a week of frisbee here, she'll think all her Christmases have come at once, throwing a frisbee is the penultimate reward for her, tug'o'war with the frisbee is the absolute ultimate reward. We will do both fetch and tug for sits and downs and a few other more silly tricks she knows (high 5s and the like). The next week I will put her through her tricks with food rewards here. At the end of this she's gonna love this spot. It'll be associated with tricks and treats.

Three Quarter mark (Orange): 2 weeks here.

This is where anxiety is plain. She refused to go past this point with my husband, I got her all the way to the quarry, but she wasn't happy about it. Again, fortunately geography is with me here, there is a nice flat area for some frisbee and tricks, and even a little creek to splash about in (she loves that). I will repeat the same procedure as for the half way mark, 1 week of frisbee for tricks followed by 1 week of food reinforcement for tricks here.

The Quarry, Our Goal (Red): 1 week walking past entrance, 2 weeks drive training at entrance

It is difficult to plan this far ahead, since I don't know where she will be at this point, the plan is already over a month long. I am thinking I will probably walk her past the quarry for a little while before we venture in. The track leads to a National Park about 1 km from the quarry entrance. I will likely walk her to the National Park boundary, and then back, passing the quarry entrance but not entering. A week of this. Then perhaps 2 Weeks of frisbee and food for tricks at the quarry entrance before we venture in. Once we actually get all the way in, more frisbee! Fetch in the water and tug o war too - her very favourites.

Does this sound like a good plan? It will probably take longer than I have detailed here, because some days I will just want a walk instead of working with her, so we will walk elsewhere for that. I'm thinking I will alternate with working on this every 2nd day or so, and walks around the suburb on the other days?

Any advice, suggestions or tweaks to this?

Edited July 27, 2012 by Wobbly

[Wobbly]

I should mention that all of this is not set in stone timewise, it depends on how she goes, my aim is as you've suggested Erny, to push her but without ever allowing anxiety to overrule her drive.

She should be OK here, her frisbee drive especially is very strong, I really suspect there is no anxiety that could over rule her frisbee excitement. The frisbee has always been very much MINE, not hers and I worked quite hard to make it the best thing in the world to her for emergency recall purposes after going to one of K9 Force's Drive training workshops and watching some Ivan Balabanov dvds I got. I reckon both Steve and Balabanov would be pretty impressed with the frisbee drive she has now.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Wobbly

[Erny]

Sounds like a plan (and I'm very impressed with your drawing!! :) ) but as you say, nothing can be set in concrete and you should be led by watching your dog. I can't advise much beyond what I have as I don't know your dog nor am I familiar with the area you're talking about. If I could and if I thought it would work with the dog (as said, you know her where I do not), I might chuck the frizbee around/play tug between the bush track loop start point and the anxiety area. Avoid being too ridged about where one thing will start and where another something starts. Fudge the edges, so she might find herself (over time) "accidentally" encroaching the anxiety area and retrieving the frizbee without even realising (until perhaps later) that she even ventured into that particular area.

Again I stress - you know your dog better than I do, but I'd normally be inclined to work my dog in drive or at least high play past, near or through problem areas and then, as he became more comfortable, steadying down to a walk past, rather than the other way around.

This is just an example - be pretty relaxed about it. Just be careful about throwing the frizbee though, as she's already sported an injury and fast turns and brakes might cause too much stress??

[Wobbly]

hi Erny,

Good ideas. Yes, you're exactly right, now that you've said it, I can see that's a far better approach. :D

So I will be less structured about it than the plan above, and instead play with the frisbee between her comfort zone (initially the loop) and anxiety zone, and increasingly throw the frisbee further & further into the scary zones, whilst ensuring there's no chance anxiety might override her play drive.

Good idea about playing there before we try to walk past too ofc, I don't know why these obvious things escape me, but they do, so I'm glad I asked for help.

This approach is actually a lot better for me too, I get a bit bored with highly structured stuff, this more organic approach is far preferable, it'll be way more fun to just play in the general vicinity without being concerned about the exact spot we're in each day. It makes it play rather than work.

I've never really pushed the limits of her drive before like this, it'll be interesting to see, with this new approach I'm anticipating anything from about an hour to a few weeks till success. XD

A similar approach worked for me before, she used to have a bit of an aversion to brooms - something had happened to her before I got her and she didn't like them at all, so I used to play fetch with her in the kitchen and throw her ball progressively closer to where the broom was leaning. She'd hesitate and look at me like "can you rescue my ball from the evil broom pls?" then when she realised she was on her own with it, she'd run in and grab the ball, always keeping a very suspicious eye on the broom and get out of there as fast as she could. It wasn't a bad phobia, I'm quite sure she'd never been mistreated prior to me getting her, I think it was probably just a broom falling on her when she was very young or something. At that time I had only just got her - the ball was her toy rather than mine - I was pretty clueless then, hadn't even heard the term drive, it was really just a lucky experiment - we were just learning eachother's boundaries, but the happy upshot is that 4 or so years on she doesn't even notice brooms at all any more.

So this is a similar approach, which is great, it's worked before so should work again. Her drive for the frisbee is magnitudes of order stronger than her adolescent ball drive ever was, but so too I think her aversion to the quarry is magnitudes of order stronger than her broom fear ever was, she really did hurt herself quite badly there that day.

As you say, it'll be a while before I can let her run and play, especially with the way she plays with the frisbee - she's crazy about it. I'm really going to have to work her strength fitness back up to previous levels before we start. We're up to about 5km walks now, I still haven't let her run or even be off lead yet outside the house. I will keep working on restoring her fitnes & strength a few weeks, perhaps even a month before we can start.

Thankyou so much Erny for your input, I appreciate it more than I can say. Having this space to run and play off leash in is a huge quality of life issue for Jarrah, and me too. She's a very active dog who LOVES to hoon around, and this the only place near to us that's suitable for her.

Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou and a big lick from Jarrah. "D

[Wobbly]

Here's 2 pics of her in the quarry, 1 with her playing frisbee tug of war with my husband (we use a canvas frisbee so she can play tug with it, I get them sent from the US, 10 at a time, they're supposed to be "combat tested" & last reasonably well when used as a special treat a couple of times a week), and 1 pic of her just having a hoon in the sand. It's a great place, 3 dams and lots of sand to run in, definitely got to get her back to loving the place.

[Bullmastiffmum]

Hey wobbly

sorry about her injury, glad to hear she is recovering well

I am not qualified and can only talk of experiences with my bullmastiff but one incident was an empty truck driving past him a corner away from home and scared the jeepers out of him! He wouldnt walk that way for a month. Took lots of patcients ,encouragement ,treats, no pressure and probably a month to get around that corner. Another time (yes my fault ) a little terrier bit him through a fence and scared him so much it took 3 monthes to walk down that street and that was still only on the other side of the road!!!

All i can say is dont rush it, let her feel comfortable with each step closer and be very happy with any progress, she will get there.

My boy struts his stuff around that corner and down that street, now no worries :)

She is gorgeous, and that looks like an amazing place, i can see why you like it so much.

[Wobbly]

I'm glad your boy got over it Bullmastiff mum. It's great to hear all these stories of dogs getting over their fear of places without too much of a fuss, it makes me feel very positive about this. "D

When I first took Jarrah back there, she was kind of OK with it, I mean she didn't like it, but she came with me without any sort of struggle, she clearly wasn't enjoying herself though, so I just took her home. But when my husband said the next day she flat out refused to go I started to get a bit worried. I have read that these neurotic behaviours either get better or worse, but will never stay static. And from what he said about that day it was getting worse. So I figured it best to work out a strategy and have that checked and vetted by people with experience and knowledge. Yay Erny!

My husband is dying to have her run with him, he'd just started training for a half marathon when she got hurt, talk about bad timing. For the moment we are just walking around our suburb, my husband knows all the distances around here and tells me our route today was 5kms, no sign of the injury flaring up again so it's looking good for the behavioural rehab work at the quarry in a few weeks.

It's funny, I never really walked around our suburb much in the past. When I first got her she was SUCH a brat in public, I was continually mortified by her behaviour, ground swallow me now! please!? every single time. She'd see a cat and just about tear my arm off trying to chase it kind of stuff. So I stopped walking her around the neighbourhood and just stuck to our bush walks. I took her to an obedience class once and she was so terrible - that was when I first got her and she was very mouthy (in a play way, but very pushy), I was covered in bruises and blood from her nipping that first week, she was monstrous with all the other dogs, trying to leap all over them and dominate them that I was so embarrassed I never went back. She really was terrible when i got her and I was completely unprepared to deal with her. But she has a fundamentally sound temperament so we muddled through without any serious problems (just really embarrassing ones ).

I guess I kind of got myself an aversion to walking in our neighbourhood with her from those bad old days (even though she's been good in other neighbourhoods for years now), we had our quarry walking routine and it's such a good spot it never occurred to me to really deviate from it. Well, it seems it's true that from bad things good things do come - the injury has been terrible, but it made me discover that walking round our pretty leafy suburb and stopping to chat to other local dog owners is in fact a very pleasant outing.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Wobbly

[Wobbly]

Well I thought I'd just keep a little record of how it's going here, coz I am terrible at dates and the forums date each post, so if I need to know what happened when in the future, it'll be here for reference. "D

Went to the Bush Track Loop today. She was hesitant about getting there, looking back over her shoulder, but with a bit of vocal encouragement she was willing. Once on the Bush Loop, she realised she wouldn't have to go the quarry, so she lost her hesitancy and was her usual happy grinning, prancing self. A little bit of off lead running, mostly on lead walking though, certainly no frisbee.

So far so good, same again tommorrow.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Wobbly

[persephone]

[Wobbly]

Thanks Persephone :D

I'm delighted with today's walk - she trotted happily all the way to the bush loop in front of me. No hesitancy at all, we had a lovely walk. :D :D :D

I don't even think I need to keep this diary now, somewhere along the line she's developed into a fairly sensible dog, cautious if she has reason (and that injury should certainly give pause for thought) but not concerned once it's proven safe. I don't anticipate any issues here, I'm just gonna follow all the advice I've been given here and it looks like it'll be fine.

If I'd been told when I first got her as a crazy adolescent that she'd turn into a sensible dog given some time to settle and learn appropriate responses, I'd have laughed, or more likely I'd have buried my head in my hands in despair :laugh: But she has, I think developed a reasonable amount of doggy common sense. Now if I could just convince her cats aren't chasey toys, she'd be perfect, well at least she always sits for her chasey toys, which is the next best thing I guess. :laugh:

[Wobbly]

Well we just went there today for the first time, she wasn't worried at all, trotting out ahead of us like there had never been a problem. No food, no frisbee, no encouragement required.

I don't know why the change of mind, but I'm delighted anyway. I can think a few reasons it might be - perhaps before she wasn't properly healed before and was just looking after herself, or maybe she's forgotten or maybe she remembers but 1 bad experience doesn't outweigh years of it being the best place in the world... Who knows what goes on in that fuzzy little brain of hers sometimes?

But the important thing is she loves her favourite walk spot again and all's good with the world. Yay!

[persephone]

:D

[Tassie]

:D

+1

[Bullmastiffmum]

Great work :)

Thats awesome :) :)

If ONLY we knew what went on in their brains...

Now that would be scary!!