Guest Arcane Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I guess what I have found eye opening about this thread is hearing from breeders that even the breeders list on DOL isn't the most reliable place to go shopping for an ethical registered breeder. What hope is there for Jo public in their attempt to do the right thing. No wonder they just go to the pet shop or local FB page or whatever. (of course I know the DOL list does have many dedicated & ethical breeders, and i think i'd pick a breed for profit or breed for the sake of it kind of breeder), but how do you get the general public to be buyer beware. Then from the breeders side there is also the catch 22 of on one hand making sure you are selling to the right buyer, but then on the other not putting off buyers with the best of intentions with 10 page questionaires & home checks etc... If I tell someone to call their state controlling body for a list of breeders for their breed of interest, let me assume that the caller will also assume that anyone on the given list is a great breeder because their state controlling body said so. We all know that can be far from the truth in some cases. My best bet is always to direct people to the breed club or a breeder I personally know of or heard good things about. What do other people do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) If I tell someone to call their state controlling body for a list of breeders for their breed of interest, let me assume that the caller will also assume that anyone on the given list is a great breeder because their state controlling body said so. We all know that can be far from the truth in some cases. My best bet is always to direct people to the breed club or a breeder I personally know of or heard good things about. What do other people do? This. I also ask breeders within the particular group if I don't know someone who breeds that breed personally. I started a thread some time back about how to find the right pup. I see if I can find it. ETA: Here it is Edited July 19, 2012 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Arcane Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) Oh Arcane that is really sad Would you consider asking their owners where they got their Cav's from? Would be interesting to determine whether they were all coming from the same place. Maybe I should start taking notes. It may be quite interesting. Could be intersting to do. One point though, every dog you groom would most likely be a 'pet" and not of breeding stock as any breeder/exhibitor would be grooming their own dogs and not sending them to a dog groomer. So sadly, you are potentially seeing the bottom end of the gene pool in the area you reside in. That said however, many good breeders sell quality health tested Show potential puppies as pets as you can only run on so many dogs. I don't expect to see show dogs walking in my door that is for sure, but pet owners still deserve to have pets of sound body & mind. If what I see in this breed turned out to be the second skimmings from registered ethical & show breeders then i'd be really sad about that. Yes, so would I be but remember ethical and registered are two separate words with distinctly different meanings. Someone in S.A. mentioned there was a Puppy Miller" churning out dogs at a great rate a few years back. And as Ososwift stated, these dogs may be all closely related. I've asked contacts on a closed international Cavliers Breeders list about feet deformities and it's not really something that has been seen "ALOT". One breeder has seen three in 37 years. Another none in 20 years. Another one in 40 years. These are either the outside toe missing or a short toe. So no, not "ALOT" seen by these breeders. I mean nature does throw the odd curve ball. Recently I heard of a puppy born with one eye not formed. Something like that can happen in any breed though. yes I believe there was/is a 'registered puppy miller' of this breed out north of Adelaide, which certainly is in easy reach of the areas I service. Here lies the question of why time & time again I can open my state controlling body journal to the litters registered page to find multiple litters of certain breeds from the same breeder , many of the litters with the same sire, not a single 'CH' to be seen and knowing these people have never been near a show ring or ever intend to. They are clearly registered puppy mills that Jo Public could be easily fooled by their controlling body registration and dogs with pedigree papers, that they are great breeders..... Sadly I have even met 'breeders' who think that only breeding from titled dogs is foolproof & they will not have health or conformation issues, And I also talk to a lot of puppy owners who proudly splurt out that 'his mum & dad are champions' as they hand over a less than healthy or typical example of breed. I guess I should counter all this negative by saying I do also have the pleasure of knowing ethical breeders & have the joy of meeting many great dogs & puppies! Edited July 19, 2012 by Arcane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Panzer Attack! Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Would any Cav people be able to PM me a couple of kennels where their dogs actually have sports titles? Thank you! Has anyone bred a particularly drivey Cav of the breeders that are posting? :) PS: I have groomed for a number of years and back when I first started it was very rare to see a well bred Cavalier (as well as a pure Maltese, Shih Tzu etc) - I did start to see a couple more pop up as I continued on, but the problem is a lot of people still dont realise that you can buy pets from breeders or believe that the "breeder" in the paper is the best place to buy a pup because their mother is such a nice dog or whatever. How are people meant to know the difference between a registered ethical breeder and just a registered breeder if they just dont know to do so much research?! My first dog was very nearly a tri Cavalier that was very sickly looking and very overpriced from PP. an elderly lady just beat me to him and I went home and cried and did some research which lead me to here. And I worked in the pet industry!!! I wish that more was done to promote purebreds as pets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Would any Cav people be able to PM me a couple of kennels where their dogs actually have sports titles? Thank you! Has anyone bred a particularly drivey Cav of the breeders that are posting? :) PS: I have groomed for a number of years and back when I first started it was very rare to see a well bred Cavalier (as well as a pure Maltese, Shih Tzu etc) - I did start to see a couple more pop up as I continued on, but the problem is a lot of people still dont realise that you can buy pets from breeders or believe that the "breeder" in the paper is the best place to buy a pup because their mother is such a nice dog or whatever. How are people meant to know the difference between a registered ethical breeder and just a registered breeder if they just dont know to do so much research?! My first dog was very nearly a tri Cavalier that was very sickly looking and very overpriced from PP. an elderly lady just beat me to him and I went home and cried and did some research which lead me to here. And I worked in the pet industry!!! I wish that more was done to promote purebreds as pets. I have pm'ed you. But do bear in mind that just because a dog does Agility is active and healthy doesn't mean it is immune from any one of lifes afflicions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) Arcane, it sounds to me as if a lot of the CKCS you are seeing come from the same place. Overbite is definitely hereditary, and missing toes sounds as if it could be. I would be interested to know if the dogs are from the same place. Main problem is that there are insufficient registered CKCS to fill the orders, so many people will buy un registered from the paper/pet shop or internet. Most of the Cavs out there are not registered. Sometimes, dogs from the paper or 'net may be cheaper, so buyers choose them as a preference. But it is the paucity of registered pups which is the problem. Every time I have had a litter I have 20+ enquiries. Some are not serious, some are "just looking" but 10 are serious. I have 4 pups, where do the other 6 buyers go? All registered breeders are in the same situation. Blackdog, if you are worried about SM, I think you should avoid all small dogs. Cavaliers have been blasted because of SM, because Cavalier breeders were the ones who were visible - because they had contributed quite a lot of money to try to find the cause of it, as Cavs were affected and breeders wanted to fix it. So much for trying to do the right thing!! However, many small breeds are affected - pomeranians, min. pinschers, maltese, poodles, griffons - and probably quite a few others. If Cav breeders had not been so keen on health, SM in cavaliers would never have been an issue. Incidence in Australia is believed to be about 2%. A 10 year old survey showed a higher incidence, but the dogs MRI'd then were done because they were suspected of having SM. If your sire is overshot, or has deformed feet, and you put him over his daughters, you are going to perpetuate the problem. While animal rights has prevented registered breeders doing first degree matings of maybe top dogs to "lock in" the good features, unregistered breeders and puppy farms can mate brother to sister, mother to son, father to daughter every single time, with complete impunity. And of course, if you don't have to register the pups and name the parents, you can do whatever you like with impunity. We need to be careful what we believe, between rampant animal rights denigrating all breeds, and so many unregistered dogs bred very carelessly by puppy producers who neither know nor care. Unfortunately, it is a popular breed, easy to sell, and that attracts people who are maybe not interested in the welfare of the breed, or the level of satisfaction of the buyer. Edited July 20, 2012 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) We need to be careful what we believe, between rampant animal rights denigrating all breeds, and so many unregistered dogs bred very carelessly by puppy producers who neither know nor care. Unfortunately, it is a popular breed, easy to sell, and that attracts people who are maybe not interested in the welfare of the breed, or the level of satisfaction of the buyer. Yes, yes and yes. Imagine if products like cars could be made & sold by anyone who wanted to do it. No surprise, there'd be no semblance of established quality control.....and people plaintively asking, 'Is it possible to get a car that isn't inherently faulty?' The answer in the dog world, is to follow the trail of quality control set up by Kennel Club ethical guidelines and their members who have committment, experience and knowledge re their dogs. I think I read about a survey by the UK Kennel Club which found that pet people searching out registered breeders to buy from, tended to be well informed on what to look for and ask for. Note, that says 'tended'.....which means that not all did. So there's much room for education. Which a post like Jed's contributes hugely to. Interesting comment from the highly experienced groomer who 'does' my dogs. She said she can pick the purebreds that've come from registered breeders who are on top of their game. They stand out a mile, she said, on a number of criteria. Edited July 20, 2012 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgesmum Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Would any Cav people be able to PM me a couple of kennels where their dogs actually have sports titles? Thank you! Has anyone bred a particularly drivey Cav of the breeders that are posting? Hi Panzer. My first post on this subject, and it's about agility LOL I bred and titled two Cavs in agility, one of whom was a well-driven little boy. These days, he gives me the "puppy dog eye" look so I'll put him on my bed (won't even use the doggy steps!). If you're looking for a pup, I can't help, though, so hopefully, LizT has better info in her PM to you. This is a great breed for agility, if you are well-matched with the right dog. A good breeder will help you pick out a suitable performance dog, if that's what you're looking for. Good luck Georgesmum South Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgesmum Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Jed, I couldn't work out how to "multi-quote" your post, but thank you for it! For information, I know a lot of Cavaliers in SA who have lived long, healthy lives into their teens (13-15 years), rarely needing to visit the vet. And when I say "a lot", I do mean "a lot". I've been involved with this breed for 30 years (pet owner, then exhibitor/breeder/agiliteer), and attend the Cavalier Club's fun days where up to 150 pets and their owners may be in attendance. They come from all over the state, and from all breeders. Seeing all of these dogs, talking to their owners, gives a very good overview of the breed. The SM issue is a media beat-up, and while none of us wants to see any of our dogs suffer, in 22 years of exhibiting and attending pet events, I would have seen maybe a handful of obviously affected dogs. I'll leave any further comment on the condition to anyone else with more experience of it. To respond to another poster, it can be tested for, but not in all states of Australia, and at up to $1,000 per dog. Responsible, reputable Cavalier breeders are health testing as much as we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdogs Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 Jed, I couldn't work out how to "multi-quote" your post, but thank you for it! For information, I know a lot of Cavaliers in SA who have lived long, healthy lives into their teens (13-15 years), rarely needing to visit the vet. And when I say "a lot", I do mean "a lot". I've been involved with this breed for 30 years (pet owner, then exhibitor/breeder/agiliteer), and attend the Cavalier Club's fun days where up to 150 pets and their owners may be in attendance. They come from all over the state, and from all breeders. Seeing all of these dogs, talking to their owners, gives a very good overview of the breed. The SM issue is a media beat-up, and while none of us wants to see any of our dogs suffer, in 22 years of exhibiting and attending pet events, I would have seen maybe a handful of obviously affected dogs. I'll leave any further comment on the condition to anyone else with more experience of it. To respond to another poster, it can be tested for, but not in all states of Australia, and at up to $1,000 per dog. Responsible, reputable Cavalier breeders are health testing as much as we can. Really good to hear from a breeder with a lot of breed experience. SM wasn't really my concern, since I know that there isn't the same proliferation of the disease in Australia as there is overseas. There is, however, a wealth of other genetic conditions from which the breed suffers. I spoke to a very proud Cavalier owner today who told me that his dog has ONLY JUST been diagnosed with a heart murmur at the age of seven; as if that was cause for celebration. He also said that both his dogs were very anxious, but that was just part of the breed. It's constant comments like this which raise doubts in my mind. I appreciate the breeders who pour their heart and soul into a breed to try to ensure their health and temperament. But 'trying' and 'succeeding' are two different things when you're the buyer. Would you tell people how many of the dogs you bred over the years had genetic conditions despite your conscientious dedication? I am glad to hear that you have met a great number of healthy Cavs and I hope that the breed continue to move in the right direction. I hope more than anything that it's not too late to largely eradicate genetic conditions from the breed. I am confused as to the conflicting views I've had between your experience and that of the disheartened breeders I've heard from here and in real life. There are a lot of breed enthusiasts here and I didn't intend to offend anyone, though I can see how my wording might have come across as a bit callous. If I didn't have an appreciation of the breed myself I probably wouldn't have started this thread. It's good to talk openly about issues in any breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Well I have been in the industry for 48 years so I have seen a lot. Deafness. Blindness. Hip Dysplasia Slipping patella Missing limbs Extra digits Missing digits Fused digits Heart murmers Half a heart Vessels in the wrong place. Brains missing. Fistulas between trachea and oesophagus Kidneys missing Penis with holes in the wrong place. Unidentifiable gender until DNA'd One eye. Cleft from the mouth to the skull up through the nose. Cleft palate Hair lip Over bite Under bite Then the illnesses cancer, thyroid conditions, brain disorders. Then the mental health issues. And where is all this???? In the human race. If we did half the testing on humans that we do on dogs we would not even scratch the surface. I rest my case. PS I am not saying that dogs do not have problems but a lot are caused by humans. My track record first cav died after having a stoke at 1 week over 15. Heart murmer for 3 years Her daughter 1 week she of 16 heart murmer for 4 years. Her daugher 1 month shy of 14 heart murmer for 4 years. Current 9 yo slight murmer 8 year old heart murmer. 4 year old healthy. I have sold pups that have also lived to a good age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) Well I have been in the industry for 48 years so I have seen a lot. Deafness. Blindness. Hip Dysplasia Slipping patella Missing limbs Extra digits Missing digits Fused digits Heart murmers Half a heart Vessels in the wrong place. Brains missing. Fistulas between trachea and oesophagus Kidneys missing Penis with holes in the wrong place. Unidentifiable gender until DNA'd One eye. Cleft from the mouth to the skull up through the nose. Cleft palate Hair lip Over bite Under bite Then the illnesses cancer, thyroid conditions, brain disorders. Then the mental health issues. And where is all this???? In the human race. If we did half the testing on humans that we do on dogs we would not even scratch the surface. I rest my case. PS I am not saying that dogs do not have problems but a lot are caused by humans. My track record first cav died after having a stoke at 1 week over 15. Heart murmer for 3 years Her daughter 1 week she of 16 heart murmer for 4 years. Her daugher 1 month shy of 14 heart murmer for 4 years. Current 9 yo slight murmer 8 year old heart murmer. 4 year old healthy. I have sold pups that have also lived to a good age. "Like" Edited July 20, 2012 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesluvscavs Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Well I have been in the industry for 48 years so I have seen a lot. Deafness. Blindness. Hip Dysplasia Slipping patella Missing limbs Extra digits Missing digits Fused digits Heart murmers Half a heart Vessels in the wrong place. Brains missing. Fistulas between trachea and oesophagus Kidneys missing Penis with holes in the wrong place. Unidentifiable gender until DNA'd One eye. Cleft from the mouth to the skull up through the nose. Cleft palate Hair lip Over bite Under bite Then the illnesses cancer, thyroid conditions, brain disorders. Then the mental health issues. And where is all this???? In the human race. If we did half the testing on humans that we do on dogs we would not even scratch the surface. I rest my case. PS I am not saying that dogs do not have problems but a lot are caused by humans. My track record first cav died after having a stoke at 1 week over 15. Heart murmer for 3 years Her daughter 1 week she of 16 heart murmer for 4 years. Her daugher 1 month shy of 14 heart murmer for 4 years. Current 9 yo slight murmer 8 year old heart murmer. 4 year old healthy. I have sold pups that have also lived to a good age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgesmum Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 And where is all this???? In the human race. If we did half the testing on humans that we do on dogs we would not even scratch the surface. I rest my case.[/font][/size] Me thinks a couple of readers were probably getting a bit excited for a moment, there :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgesmum Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Would you tell people how many of the dogs you bred over the years had genetic conditions despite your conscientious dedication? Who are you, and why would I do that? In fact, your question just doesn't seem to fit the original intent of your first post, so... Who are you? What is your intent with this thread? It becomes clearer with every post. In answer to your question: Not many. My vet often thinks I'm seeing the other vet in town. He comments on how "robust" my newborns are, then later the young pups, how "rock solid" their patellae are; he'll check this and that knowing there's no point because it's all okay. The hip scores will come back lower than breed average. Hearts are good into old age, when the dogs will die at about age 13 or 14. BTW, heart clear until 7 can be cause for celebration. If the murmur is detected at 7 years, the dog may have another 7 or 8 years left yet. It may not even die from the heart condition. Stop scaremongering. Your slip is showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Would you tell people how many of the dogs you bred over the years had genetic conditions despite your conscientious dedication? Who are you, and why would I do that? In fact, your question just doesn't seem to fit the original intent of your first post, so... Who are you? What is your intent with this thread? It becomes clearer with every post. In answer to your question: Not many. My vet often thinks I'm seeing the other vet in town. He comments on how "robust" my newborns are, then later the young pups, how "rock solid" their patellae are; he'll check this and that knowing there's no point because it's all okay. The hip scores will come back lower than breed average. Hearts are good into old age, when the dogs will die at about age 13 or 14. BTW, heart clear until 7 can be cause for celebration. If the murmur is detected at 7 years, the dog may have another 7 or 8 years left yet. It may not even die from the heart condition. Stop scaremongering. Your slip is showing. Indeed...it would also have to factor the Grade of the murmur and at what rate deterioration, if any, progresses. We celebrate each year heart clear like a birthday, we cheer joyously when we hear of a milestone oldies birthday. It reassures us that what we are doing is indeed worthwhile and the breed is far from "doomed". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavstar Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 :laugh: :laugh: Great post BB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdogs Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 Would you tell people how many of the dogs you bred over the years had genetic conditions despite your conscientious dedication? Who are you, and why would I do that? In fact, your question just doesn't seem to fit the original intent of your first post, so... Who are you? What is your intent with this thread? It becomes clearer with every post. In answer to your question: Not many. My vet often thinks I'm seeing the other vet in town. He comments on how "robust" my newborns are, then later the young pups, how "rock solid" their patellae are; he'll check this and that knowing there's no point because it's all okay. The hip scores will come back lower than breed average. Hearts are good into old age, when the dogs will die at about age 13 or 14. BTW, heart clear until 7 can be cause for celebration. If the murmur is detected at 7 years, the dog may have another 7 or 8 years left yet. It may not even die from the heart condition. Stop scaremongering. Your slip is showing. You're starting to sound a little paranoid. It was a genuine question which fits exactly with the intent of my original post; which was to find out whether it was possible to really safeguard against genetic disease when purchasing a Cav and to understand the extent to which genetic illness is present within the breed. The reason I asked you if you would disclose that information is because I'm genuinely curious as to what your intepretation of a healthy breed is. I also don't understand why you would find that question offensive. It's breeders not disclosing information about genetic issues they've had that leaves me resorting to a public forum to really understand the extent of the health problems within the breed. I don't think genetic issues are really going to be able to be remedied unless we become more transparent and conversant about them. Secretly, what I really wanted you to say was "I've had none in my lines". Then I would investigate you as a potential breeder from whom to purchase a puppy in the future. Though, I am glad that you haven't had many problems. It gives me hope. I understand people are defensive in the wake of 'those' documentaries, but I really don't think that attitude helps. I don't see why breeders can't just admit there are issues within a breed and that they're doing everything they can to rectify them without getting angry about it or feeling vilified. Maybe I'm missing something from the other side of the fence here. I don't think a heart murmur at any age is a cause for celebration. Sure seven is better than three, but at any age it's not ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdogs Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 And where is all this???? In the human race. If we did half the testing on humans that we do on dogs we would not even scratch the surface. I rest my case.[/font][/size] Me thinks a couple of readers were probably getting a bit excited for a moment, there :laugh: That's a bit of a strange reply. Why would I or anyone be getting excited about information that appears to confirm gross genetic issues within a breed? Particularly a breed they were looking at purchasing? This isn't an 'us against them' situation. It's a discussion that no one needs to be upset about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesluvscavs Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Well perhaps now Black Dog you best start another post asking about a different breed of dog that might be better suited for your Mother, that hopefully has no genetic health issues at all , or not as many as the bad ones that have been used as examples in here.. As you can see I am very passionate about this breed of dog ! I would have a third one in a heart beat if the situation arose, and I would once again buy from a breeder that has a good reputation and well respected Hope you find something perfect for your Mother. All the best :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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