Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Without Health Issues.

[Jumabaar]

Edited- Sorry too disillusioned with other breeds where there is much more "head in the sand" attitude.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Jumabaar

[Jed]

Blackdogs, it is complicated. PDE muddied the waters. I think the Biggiest Problem is that there are many breeders, some puppy farmers, some unregistered - and a few registered - who have NFI about some diseases Cavs have. Not do they test. Nor do they study

Pugs, I believe, are in the same boat - there is a fine line between a well conformed pug without problems and a badly conformed one with lots of problems.

Bad breeders don't know the difference and don't care.

Thanks for the compliment, there are some good breeders out there and some who post here, not just me.

Blackdogs - have a look at this site. It will give you heart!!

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html

And, from the menu on the left, select "Golden Oldies"

Edited July 20, 2012 by Jed

[Blackdogs]

.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Blackdogs

[Blackdogs]

Blackdogs, it is complicated. PDE muddied the waters. I think the Biggiest Problem is that there are many breeders, some puppy farmers, some unregistered - and a few registered - who have NFI about some diseases Cavs have. Not do they test. Nor do they study

Pugs, I believe, are in the same boat - there is a fine line between a well conformed pug without problems and a badly conformed one with lots of problems.

Bad breeders don't know the difference and don't care.

Thanks for the compliment, there are some good breeders out there and some who post here, not just me.

Blackdogs - have a look at this site. It will give you heart!!

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html

And, from the menu on the left, select "Golden Oldies"

Oh wow, that DOES give me heart. Not only that but I love pictures of old dogs!

[Jed]

Edited- Sorry too disillusioned with other breeds where there is much more "head in the sand" attitude.

Hi, I am interested in what you would call "head in the sand" attitude in this thread? Just for my own clarification? What do you think could be done to change this attitude?

[dogsaremyworld]

My link

I cannot quote because I am on my phone.

Jed your post is excellent, exactly what I was going to say.

Cavaliers actually do not not have, at the moment, any true genetic diseases.

Both parents have either be carriers or affected to pass on a disease.

Then there is the mode of inheritance. Affected to carrier 2 affected 2 carrier. Carrier to carrier 1 affected, 2 carrier, 1 clear.

Carrier to clear 1 carrier 3 clear.

Hope I got my genetics sorted :)

So following that line you breed a pup from clear parents and it gets a heart murmur.

As Jed stated what else is in play.

All I can say to puppy buyers that the pup comes from clear parents and this is the history of my dogs, your pups ancestors.

I don't understand what you mean by your definition of 'true genetic disease'? What do you mean?

Are you saying because you can effectively breed out a problem by putting an affected dog to a clear dog that in some situations over time you can breed it out, so therefore it is not a 'true genetic disease'?

The mode of inheritance's are different depending on what genetic disease you are discussing, for example for patella luxation's they don't know exactly what way the gene for that particular disease is passed on (although the KC in UK are working currently on finding it) But for others the mode of inheritance can be tracked, and DNA tests are available that can detect the prescence of that gene, and then a percentage likelyhood of puppies born affected/carriers/clear can be established, depending on whether the mode is autosomal recessive, or dominant, or polygenic, etc, etc - a great website explaining this can be found here: http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/patterns.htm#ad

As most people are aware, just because an animal is not 'affected' by a disease does not mean that it is not a carrier, and can produce pups that are affected, or carriers, who just continue to pass the genetic trait down through the lines.

Cavaliers, like all dog breeds suffer from genetic diseases. It's not just Cavaliers, even mutts have health problems. But, due to thier popularity, the quality of dogs being bred across the WHOLE breed is dropping substansially (not just from a health viewpoint but also construction). It's sad, that due to their great temperaments, amazing looks, and endless lovability they have become HUGELY popular and therefore there are a number of people - puppy farmers, BYB's, and even less than ethical registered breeders who simply see the dollar signs above thier puppies heads as they are born. They obviously too, have attracted some less than flattering media attention, which has given them a bad name as well. There are some amazing quality breeders out there, who have amazing, healthy, happy dogs.

Unfortunately, for the general public, who are buying our beautiful breed for thier amazing points, they do not see/and or understand the dividing lines, and lump ALL breeders of Cavaliers in the one basket, so all those pups born from puppy farms, etc, are seen in the same light as those bred by registered, ethical breeders. Even some of the dodgy ads out there from puppy farmers, and BYB's claim that the pups have 'papers' and the breeders are 'registered' when they are definately NOT. Very confusing. So unfortunately, the breed's repuation is dropping due to the number of factors I outlined above.

But I also believe there are some problems within the registered community as well.

- The healthy, well constructed dogs, are greatly limited within the breed, even to other show people. Due to the amount of people out there who are only to happy to take advantage of great dogs, alot of top breeders will not even consider selling dogs they are not keeping for themselves on main registration, in particular bitches. This means that the gene pool of those happy, healthy dogs are largely unavailable to the general gene pool of show animals. I completely understand this hesitation - people have worked for lifetimes creating thier lines, and fight hard to protect them from people who have no ethics, or morals, but unfortunately it becomes hard for those who WANT to breed Cavaliers to gain access to healthy lines.

- There is a small element within the dog community who are quite defensive, and deny the existence of genetic diseases (this is definately NOT unique to Cavies.)

- When registered breeders apply for thier prefix, there is not enough thorough information given about genetics. I was definately suprised, as I was excited to learn when the bundle came when I became a breeder 8 years ago, only to find there was NO info on mode of inheritance, or types of genes, etc, and there are no in depth questions in the test to identify what knowledge the breeders have of genetic diseases, and leaving research up to the individual. This means that some breeders really have no idea, or a confused knowledge about inherited diseases. (Again definately NOT limited to Cavaliers, but ALL dog breeds)

- There are some terrible unethical breeders out there, who simply don't care, and I have heard of situations where people have lied about thier dogs and thier ancestors health status's, and lie about thier kennel's health testing programs. ( not limited to Cavies)

- I have heard of some breeders, who even though they do health test, they ignore the results, and breed anyway, especially if they believe that it will only produce 'carriers'. There seems to be some out there who believe as long as they do not produce 'affected' animals, then they are not breeding genetic faults. (again not limited to Cavies)

I have been in love with the Cavalier for over 15 years. When I went to buy my first one (all that time ago) I researched diligently for a well constructed, well moving, happy, healthy dog from a registered breeder to start showing. I did all the checks and balances, but he got a heart murmur at age 3 and a half. I knew I could not breed from him, and he was finding it hard to get around the show ring, so I decided then to get another one, to show, and by then I had the showing bug, I wanted to become a registered breeder, and produce my own little pups, I researched what lines I wanted to go with, and approached all of the breeders I wished to emulate hoping amongst hope they would offer me a pup. They didn't - most didn't even reply to me, or if they did they said that they would contact me when they had thier next litter. I never heard from them again. I eventually found a breeder, who would sell me a girl on main rego, and her dogs were distantly related to some of the other dogs that I had hoped for. Unfortunately the bitch that was meant to be mine died tragically at 11 weeks. So she offered me a boy. I took him, fell in love, and started showing him to much success, despite the fact that he was a bit small. Soon she contacted me and told me that a friend of hers with 'similar lines' was willing to sell me a bitch. I was ecstatic!! My breeding plans were underway! Six months later, it became clear that she had patella luxation in both knees. The breeder assured me that it was a 'one-off', she had never had ANY problems in her lines, and that she would offer me a replacement bitch from different breeding. I waited a year for that girl. She ended up with a problem with her digestion, that was never quite diagnosed properly, and sadly she died after I had to put her down cause she was basically starving to death. I was back at the beginning AGAIN. But I did not falter, I loved the breed, and was determined to become a ethical, responsible breeder, despite the fact that at that stage I only had one boy that had NO problems. Other than the fact that he has EXTREME seperation anxiety, he was perfect and I even titled him. I was again started a determined search, trying desperately to get quality animals, that would achieve in the show ring, be faithful companions, and be part of a quality, researched breeding programme. Again, none of the top, top, top breeders got back to me, and so once again I tried a different breeder who showed reguarly, and had lines related to some of the best dogs in the country, who assured me that thier dogs were healthy.

To cut a long story short, over my entire time in the breed, I have had;

8 Cavaliers 4 boys and 4 girls.

3 of them died tragically before the age of five from inherited diseases.

2 have had patella luxation

2 have had no problems

and 1 has had more than one genetic fault.

ALL of them were from registered, show breeders, on MAIN registration, sold as 'show potential' animals. ALL of them did well in the show ring, winning challenges and classes in groups, even the ones with patella luxtion.

I have had ZERO litters of puppies, because I have not had the opportunity to breed from animals who are healthy. I know many would simply still breed them, but I cannot bring myself to breed from affected animals. I desperately want to be a responsible, ethical breeder, and for the life of me, I cannot manage to find them. The two I have that are healthy, are both boys, and I cannot breed two boys!

I have sent thousands of emails, been promised dozens of puppies, and have ended up heartbroken, and devastated that my dreams have been dashed. I know I will probably cop some flak for this, but this is my reality. I have stopped showing this year, as my youngest boy is now over 9 and is no longer competitive. This is not by choice, it's just because I don't have anything to show. Don't get me wrong, despite this I still LOVE Cavaliers, and I know there are breeders out there who are ethical and have healthy dogs. I want to be one of them! I would never recommend someone NOT get a Cavalier, because they are just the best dogs out there! But I would recommend anyone buying one definately buy from a REGISTERED, REPUTABLE breeder, who is prepared to provide you with thier dogs HEALTH TESTING, and not just SAY they have healthy dogs!

[Jumabaar]

Edited- Sorry too disillusioned with other breeds where there is much more "head in the sand" attitude.

Hi, I am interested in what you would call "head in the sand" attitude in this thread? Just for my own clarification? What do you think could be done to change this attitude?

I have met many CKCS breeders that are very willing to talk about health problems- what they do to prevent them, their impact on the breed etc. And I think that attitude is great!! Yes the breed has problems but there are lots of sites that tell puppy owners what questions they should be asking etc. And I think that means that there is a great deal that will happen for this breed which will move it in a positive direction.

I dont necessarily see this attitude when I talk to breeders in other breeds- there are always individuals that are going out of their way to improve the health status of the breed, its just that it doesn't seem as widespread and open as it does in CKCS. It may be that the breed has a smaller population so there is not as much data to draw peoples attention? I really don't know.

I personally try and combat this through educating potential puppy buyers on important questions they should be asking breeds about their breed.

[sandgrubber]

Popularity is the curse of ANY breed.

Correction: Sudden popularity, particularly combined with media hype, IS a curse for ANY breed. Labradors top popularity lists in several countries, and have held their place for decades. In Australia, SBT's are high on the list, too, and I don't see any media hype push behind their popularity.

Not to say that there aren't health problem with Labs . . . or people denying health problems (eg, epilepsy and old age cancers). Not to say that SBT's don't have problems either.

Point being, it's the craze that's the problem. Popularity may have a firm basis.

Edited July 20, 2012 by sandgrubber

[Salukifan]

Popularity is the curse of ANY breed.

Correction: Sudden popularity, particularly combined with media hype, IS a curse for ANY breed. Labradors top popularity lists in several countries, and have held their place for decades. In Australia, SBT's are high on the list, too, and I don't see any media hype push behind their popularity.

Not to say that there aren't health problem with Labs . . . or people denying health problems (eg, epilepsy and old age cancers). Not to say that SBT's don't have problems either.

Point being, it's the craze that's the problem. Popularity may have a firm basis.

Yep, and then it attracts those whose only interest in breeding is $$$. Demand draws the profit breeders like flies to honey.

And then people buy what's cheap or available today based on a perception of the breed and end up with a dog that's a pale imitation of a good representative or that fail to provide what a pup needs to grow into a good dog.

[asal]

Arcane, it sounds to me as if a lot of the CKCS you are seeing come from the same place. Overbite is definitely hereditary, and missing toes sounds as if it could be. I would be interested to know if the dogs are from the same place.

Main problem is that there are insufficient registered CKCS to fill the orders, so many people will buy un registered from the paper/pet shop or internet. Most of the Cavs out there are not registered. Sometimes, dogs from the paper or 'net may be cheaper, so buyers choose them as a preference. But it is the paucity of registered pups which is the problem. Every time I have had a litter I have 20+ enquiries. Some are not serious, some are "just looking" but 10 are serious. I have 4 pups, where do the other 6 buyers go? All registered breeders are in the same situation.

Blackdog, if you are worried about SM, I think you should avoid all small dogs. Cavaliers have been blasted because of SM, because Cavalier breeders were the ones who were visible - because they had contributed quite a lot of money to try to find the cause of it, as Cavs were affected and breeders wanted to fix it. So much for trying to do the right thing!!

However, many small breeds are affected - pomeranians, min. pinschers, maltese, poodles, griffons - and probably quite a few others. If Cav breeders had not been so keen on health, SM in cavaliers would never have been an issue.

Incidence in Australia is believed to be about 2%. A 10 year old survey showed a higher incidence, but the dogs MRI'd then were done because they were suspected of having SM.

If your sire is overshot, or has deformed feet, and you put him over his daughters, you are going to perpetuate the problem. While animal rights has prevented registered breeders doing first degree matings of maybe top dogs to "lock in" the good features, unregistered breeders and puppy farms can mate brother to sister, mother to son, father to daughter every single time, with complete impunity.

And of course, if you don't have to register the pups and name the parents, you can do whatever you like with impunity.

We need to be careful what we believe, between rampant animal rights denigrating all breeds, and so many unregistered dogs bred very carelessly by puppy producers who neither know nor care.

Unfortunately, it is a popular breed, easy to sell, and that attracts people who are maybe not interested in the welfare of the breed, or the level of satisfaction of the buyer.

very well said Jed.

But, and there is always a 'but'.

what the kennel controls have never done is actually 'educate' their members about breeding dynamics and genetics, its expected newbies and even oldbies do the research themselves and few do.

it is not good enough to blame any and all imperfect pups on "inbreeding" that is only a copout.

seen to be seen to do something, and ban all mother/son, father/daughteer, brother/sister matings, then sit back with a nice moral smile.

what hasnt been addrressed is neither in or line breeding creates what wasnt there in the first place.

What it does do is identify carriers immediately if both carry and the carrier outed. then breeding decisions are made as to which or if both parents are clear or free. in and line breeding actually dna tests the involved dogs/horses/cattle/sheep/goats for every dna gene they possess.

there is no dna technology yet available that does this and this tool has been in use by breeders/FARMERS for millenia, thats how breeds evolved and were cleaned up of as many gentic failings as possible by the people who did understand this principle and became lauded as the leaders in their field. they are few and far between i grant you.

you notice I included the word 'farmer' a farmer IS or once was a very honourable profession.

yet like the homosexual group who chose to use "gay" as their new word and the rainbow as they new banner.

the dog fraternity decided to brand the lowest of the low as 'puppy farmers'.

considering so many of the pius/precious of the show world breed Champion to Champion collecting very impressive pedgrees along the way, thinking this proves how consenitious I am.

breeding unrelated to totally unrelated achives many things. yes a very pretty pedigree.

yes a parentage with not a clue what deletrious genes are hidden and when they do come out in all their glory, the owner of the bitch declares, the sire is at fault.

the owner of the sire declares that bitch is at fault and the fight begins.

I have seen hundreds if not thousands of such puppies bred over the decades and it didnt take me long to realise the puppys bred by the in and line breeders resulted in far fewer such puppies than the outcross all the time breeders.

Ive seen puppies from "perfect" parents runing accross their feed bowl to scoop up dinner because the bottom jaw is so short its the only way to pick up their food.

I did have a wonderful teacher, the genetist Glen Roberts. So I had a mentor to go to for advice and explaination.

I have wondered from the moment i became a member of the Canine Council why such material and infomation is not accumulated and diseminated to new and old breeders?

it is the learning of the ages.

I also wonder why the people elected do not be proactive instead of this constant reactive.

I queried the stupid "the more dimunitave preferred" in the chihuahua standard from the day i bought my first chihuahua, blind freddy could see generations doomed to cesearians was the result of (to me anyway) the fools selecting for so small they couldnt deliver anyway but hey they WON.....

it took how many decades and "pedigree dogs exposed" documentary to remove it.

Why didnt sanity prevail if SHOW BREEDERS are the paragons of virtue they profess to be.

NO I do not show, I do not believe I need to dance to the tune of people I no longer respect, yet by not so doing risk the branding of what was a proud title...PUPPY FARMER.

no morphed to derogotry by 'show' fraternity.

remember those reading this, one of the doyons of the CKC told me to my face she believe within 12 years i could not be able to find a CKC without groin hernias.

how negative is that for the welfare of this beautiful breed?

its is easy to eliminate, YOU DONT BREED FROM PARENTS WITH THEM.

but how can you reduce this in a breed where the judges award challenges to dogs with all three? navel and groin?

go look for yourselvs, the show sceenies dont think its a problem yet name me any human with a groin hernia that doesnt get it fixed because its not only uncomfortable but can lead to intestine strangulation?

and remember folks, when it became fashionable to get rid of "backyard breeders" I looked out the back door of my friends parroting this stupidity and asked ?

"Then when you get rid of those you dont like, what are you going to say when the witch hunt looks out your back door?

we all have a back yard".

this insanity began in the late 70's. there are far fewer such people than there are good people but witchhunts destroy far more than the target as the freefall in members and dogs is proving. how long before someone realis's proactive instead of reactive, before too late?

[asal]

[

I don't think you have to look as far as another species when talking about what we should expect in terms of genetics. Take the humble Kelpie for example. The breed has very few inherited issues and of the ones they do have, incidences are rare. I'm not asking for perfection, I'm hoping for hope.

Your original question was if it's possible to find a Cav without health issues. Health problems are remarkably common across animal species....and not all are specifically genetic in origin. Many arise from the simple biology of being alive....and interacting with an environment (whether animal or human).

Experienced Cav breeders have already given you the state-of-the-art position on specifically genetically acquired health issues in that breed. Makes sense then, for you to track down registered breeders who are on top of their game.

I did that for both my breeds of interest and have generally OK health-wise purebreds as pets. They're not kelpies BTW.

Yeah, my original question could have been worded much better, but then, I'd had one too many ales at the time (hence the topsy-turvy-title and the lack of tact).

Yes another FACT so often overlooked.

not all faults are gentic, as my doctor explained after my third miscarriage, experiments in collecting as many miscaried babies as possible disclosed many had failed to develop properly and its natures way of eliminting them before birth.

as he said remember you evolved from ONE cell, any mistakes in dividing and disaster, its really a mirical so many conceptions result in healty individuals.

thats why many conditions at birth are called congenetial "present at birth" not necessarily gentic in origin

muddies the water doesnt it

[LizT]

Do any of the more experienced Cavalier Breeders know at what point in the Cavaliers History Mitral Valve Disease became a larger issue than in other breeds?

Was is post or pre "resurrection" of the breed?

[Cavacazz]

I have been owned by Cavaliers for over 20 years...my Cavs have lived long and healthy lives...I recently lost my special dog at the age of 12 years and 11 months...she had a stroke (geriatric murmur at 12 sp). Her Mother died at the age of 13 years one month from Cancer (clear heart sp)and her Mother died in her sleep at 15 years from causes unknown (clear heart Vet). I also have a male who will be 12 next month...he developed a murmur at age 7, aside from being a skinny old man he is active and happy. There are issues that can affect all mammals, how many people over the age of 60 do you know who are not on any medication? Think about that for a moment.... as 10 in dogs is about equal to 65 in humans. The International Protocol for MVD is clear at five. As a mere breeder I try to have as healthy a bloodline as I possibly can, sometimes Mother Nature takes a hand and deals some cruel blows....we cannot control that, but we can control our the choice of dogs in our breeding programmes. There are healthy Cavaliers out there, you need to look in the right places :)

[Cavacazz]

Do any of the more experienced Cavalier Breeders know at what point in the Cavaliers History Mitral Valve Disease became a larger issue than in other breeds?

Was is post or pre "resurrection" of the breed?

Good question and a difficult one to answer... a breeder who had Cavs from the late 60s told me that they did not know what Mitral Valve was in the early days and there was not a "test" available back then.... She also told me that none of her dogs died at a young age....she had dogs who lived into their mid teens. So I guess as the technology was not in place back then it is hard to say

Edited July 21, 2012 by Cavacazz

[Jed]

Thanks, Jumabaar, I didn't quite understand what you meant. That's usual for me. :laugh:

asal

what the kennel controls have never done is actually 'educate' their members about breeding dynamics and genetics, its expected newbies and even oldbies do the research themselves and few do.

I think people who have an interest in anything should learn as much as they can about it. One of the things I like about breeding is that you continue to learn, you continue to hone your knowledge against your peers. I don't think the CCs should have to spoon feed people. It;s a hobby, they should want to learn. That's half the fun.

I don't agree with the CC's response to AR, but that is another matter.

dogsaremyworld, I think you were probably very unlucky.

[LizT]

This is the MVD Breeding Protocol set up as a guideline for breeders in the United States. Apparently the main reason it is not working is because of breeders not following it.

Every breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniel should be examined annually by a board certified veterinary cardiologist.

Do not breed any Cavalier who is diagnosed with an MVD murmur under the age of 5 years.

Do not breed any CKCS before age 2.5 years.

Do not breed any Cavalier under the age of 5 years, unless its parents' hearts were free of MVD murmurs by age 5 years

It's not a big ask.

It's not rocket science.

[Jumabaar]

Thanks, Jumabaar, I didn't quite understand what you meant. That's usual for me. :laugh:

asal

what the kennel controls have never done is actually 'educate' their members about breeding dynamics and genetics, its expected newbies and even oldbies do the research themselves and few do.

I think people who have an interest in anything should learn as much as they can about it. One of the things I like about breeding is that you continue to learn, you continue to hone your knowledge against your peers. I don't think the CCs should have to spoon feed people. It;s a hobby, they should want to learn. That's half the fun.

I don't agree with the CC's response to AR, but that is another matter.

dogsaremyworld, I think you were probably very unlucky.

I am on holidays from uni and unfortunately that means my brain turns off and most of what I write becomes incomprehensible lol

While I do agree that the individual should be the one going out to do research I do think it would be VERY cool if the CCs offered more information nights from geneticists and specialists the canine field. I wouldn't be sure how to initiate this on a large scale- but information nights where 30 people attend would be very cheap, and could be subsidised by CCs. I know a few clubs who are active in this area, but once again some clubs are not and their members perhaps don't get as much access to lectures. Some people lack even the basic knowledge to know that they are actually quite naive about topics that they should be well versed in (some descriptions of basic genetics have been so depressing I laugh and cry at the same time). I wouldn't see them as begin compulsory, but as another resource for the ethical breeders out there- served on a silver platter!!

I guess something to add to my growing list of suggestions to DogsNSW.

All this talk of CKCS makes me wanna go to a show and hug one :laugh:

ETA- I also hear people talking about genetics and not quite getting it on their own. They are happy to discuss it though and its great when you can see them 'get' it. I just want more people to have access to resources that allow them to 'get it'. PS I am a tiny bit of a nerd and love voluntary lectures on random interesting topics so not sure if it would appeal to others.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Jumabaar

[Sheridan]

Or people could start with the Khan Academy: Genetics 101.

[Jed]

In my travels around, I used a few different vets. I was so pleased to find one who holds regular seminars for his clients. I was invited to one on breeding. There is one on in a month on parasite control. Great idea.

The CCs do have some training nights -- I am sure they were advertising seminars on training, and maybe breeding (forgotten), I think the problem is that things of this sort are not well patronised and the CC's have given up in despair. But I agree it would be cool if they would have learning seminars.

Lots of members show, and don't breed.

The best form of learning, for me, is from "old" breeders, and from specialist vets - I always have lots of questions -- some vets are natural teachers, some not, and I have learned so much from those who will teach.

Surely if you do something - anything - you would want to learn all you could about it, without your organisation having to spoon feed you? However, nothing would surprise me after I mentioned MVD in Cavs to a so called breeder, and she asked me what that was.

Re MVD - I am sure it was in the breed - but there were no tests for it. I do believe I read somewhere where the author suggested a very early luminary of the breed had MVD, and they had traced pedigrees, and it did appear so.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Jed

[LizT]

In my travels around, I used a few different vets. I was so pleased to find one who holds regular seminars for his clients. I was invited to one on breeding. There is one on in a month on parasite control. Great idea.

The CCs do have some training nights -- I am sure they were advertising seminars on training, and maybe breeding (forgotten), I think the problem is that things of this sort are not well patronised and the CC's have given up in despair. But I agree it would be cool if they would have learning seminars.

Lots of members show, and don't breed.

The best form of learning, for me, is from "old" breeders, and from specialist vets - I always have lots of questions -- some vets are natural teachers, some not, and I have learned so much from those who will teach.

Surely if you do something - anything - you would want to learn all you could about it, without your organisation having to spoon feed you? However, nothing would surprise me after I mentioned MVD in Cavs to a so called breeder, and she asked me what that was.

Re MVD - I am sure it was in the breed - but there were no tests for it. I do believe I read somewhere where the author suggested a very early luminary of the breed had MVD, and they had traced pedigrees, and it did appear so.

So I wonder then, in the days of King Charles where Royalty were considerably inbreed, because, apart from "sub contracting the "job" out due to infertility, Royalty only bred with Royalty, and therfore these little companions of the 'Fop of a King" were also very, very, very inbred?