Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Without Health Issues.

[LizT]

The 'bite & dentition' issues I mention are not about a few teeth being crooked or slight misalignment. I groom several that have the most shocking of overbite. 1/2 to 1.5 inches. I just haven't seen this in other breeds like i see it in the Cavs I groom. I have 3 cavs in today and one of them is as I describe with a shocking overbite.

The feet & toes on many of the cavs I groom are really bad too. i groom quite a few with only 3 toes on at least one foot, several with four toes but one of the outer toes is severely stunted, and I even groom one with five toes on both front feet not including the dew claw. Again something I just don't see in other breeds.

I'm not trying to diss the breed either. I am simply stating my observations as fact.

I would also entertain the idea of owning one myself. I do quite like them.....But I know I would my doing the mountain of research too.

WOW! This is a phenonomen I am TOTALLY unfamiliar with. Certainly hasn't happened to any breeders pups I pesonally am aware of. Your experience has made me want to look into this further. I can understand a puppy being born with a deformity, nature does do weird things sometimes, but you make it sound quite prevalent and not "random" as these things usually are.

When my own childen were born I did the usually new baby "count the fingers and toes thing" as we new mums do. We go over our precious ones with a fine tooth combs. :) I do check over the new puppies closely but haven't count "fingers and toes" as yet. That is a new one for me.

Off to do some research on this one.

Here is the bite I was talking about on the one I did today. It's plain to see it is a serious overbite & this is not the worst one I see. I counted & currently I have a relatively small number of CKCS clients at 39, and 6 of them have serious overbites similar to this one. I'm starting to wonder if I do see a lot of dogs from the same faulty lines or sires or something!

and here is the little sweetheart herself. And sadly the head tilt is NOT just animation at some silly noise I made to get the photo....that is how it always sits with a permanent tilt!

Another I groomed today has ulcerated eyes as well as cataracts so is effectively blind in one eye & can't see out the other, has a major crust on his nose, suffers skin problems, and air scratches at the drop of a hat which is miserable to watch & really difficult to manage during the groom! He is also prone to random aggressive outbursts so untypical of the breed. I got a video of him but i'm not sure how to link it here.

Yes Arcane, that is a seriously bad overbite, and the other dog you mention, poor thing definitely has issues. I too wonder if this is from a line that is local to your area.

Regarding feet deformities, I have been given some information from a King Charles Spaniel owner, yes 'Charlies' are a breed seperate to Cavaliers but do share a genetic link. She told me about somthing called "PYRAME FEET".

she said

QUOTE" One issue with King Charles Spaniel is the presence in some of "PYRAME FEET" which is the fusing of the pads/toes giving the impression a toe is mising. The nail on the fused pad/toe is also fused and is especially horny, and quite a bother with carpets, furniture - and especially nail trimming. UNQUOTE"

Is this what you are referring to when you speak of feet deformities?

Edited July 19, 2012 by LizT

[raineth]

Oh Arcane that is really sad

Would you consider asking their owners where they got their Cav's from? Would be interesting to determine whether they were all coming from the same place.

[persephone]

arcane .. you may want to edit the photo showing council tag .... this is available to the public eye ..and it may mean dog can be traced

also whoever added the pic in a quote may want to delete it?

[Guest Arcane]

The 'bite & dentition' issues I mention are not about a few teeth being crooked or slight misalignment. I groom several that have the most shocking of overbite. 1/2 to 1.5 inches. I just haven't seen this in other breeds like i see it in the Cavs I groom. I have 3 cavs in today and one of them is as I describe with a shocking overbite.

The feet & toes on many of the cavs I groom are really bad too. i groom quite a few with only 3 toes on at least one foot, several with four toes but one of the outer toes is severely stunted, and I even groom one with five toes on both front feet not including the dew claw. Again something I just don't see in other breeds.

I'm not trying to diss the breed either. I am simply stating my observations as fact.

I would also entertain the idea of owning one myself. I do quite like them.....But I know I would my doing the mountain of research too.

WOW! This is a phenonomen I am TOTALLY unfamiliar with. Certainly hasn't happened to any breeders pups I pesonally am aware of. Your experience has made me want to look into this further. I can understand a puppy being born with a deformity, nature does do weird things sometimes, but you make it sound quite prevalent and not "random" as these things usually are.

When my own childen were born I did the usually new baby "count the fingers and toes thing" as we new mums do. We go over our precious ones with a fine tooth combs. :) I do check over the new puppies closely but haven't count "fingers and toes" as yet. That is a new one for me.

Off to do some research on this one.

Here is the bite I was talking about on the one I did today. It's plain to see it is a serious overbite & this is not the worst one I see. I counted & currently I have a relatively small number of CKCS clients at 39, and 6 of them have serious overbites similar to this one. I'm starting to wonder if I do see a lot of dogs from the same faulty lines or sires or something!

and here is the little sweetheart herself. And sadly the head tilt is NOT just animation at some silly noise I made to get the photo....that is how it always sits with a permanent tilt!

Another I groomed today has ulcerated eyes as well as cataracts so is effectively blind in one eye & can't see out the other, has a major crust on his nose, suffers skin problems, and air scratches at the drop of a hat which is miserable to watch & really difficult to manage during the groom! He is also prone to random aggressive outbursts so untypical of the breed. I got a video of him but i'm not sure how to link it here.

Yes Arcane, that is a seriously bad overbite, and the other dog you mention, poor thing definitely has issues. I too wonder if this is from a line that is local to your area.

Regarding feet deformities, I have been given some information from a King Charles Spaniel Breeder, yes 'Charlies' are a breed seperate to Cavaliers but do share a genetic link. She told me about somthing called "PYRAME FEET".

she said

QUOTE" One issue with King Charles Spaniel is the presence in some of "PYRAME FEET" which is the fusing of the pads/toes giving the impression a toe is mising. The nail on the fused pad/toe is also fused and is especially horny, and quite a bother with carpets, furniture - and especially nail trimming. UNQUOTE"

Is this what you are referring to when you speak of feet deformities?

I have seen a couple I could say resemble that description, but overall, no, they have definite separate toes/pads that are deformed in some way, or altogether missing alongside what appear to be normal toes/pads. I haven't seen horn like nails, but sadly see quite a few with naso-digital hyperkeratosis and the resulting feathered &/or horny pad issues.

[Guest Arcane]

arcane .. you may want to edit the photo showing council tag .... this is available to the public eye ..and it may mean dog can be traced

also whoever added the pic in a quote may want to delete it?

yeah i did wonder that. maybe I will go & delete that one :)

[Guest Arcane]

Oh Arcane that is really sad

Would you consider asking their owners where they got their Cav's from? Would be interesting to determine whether they were all coming from the same place.

Maybe I should start taking notes. It may be quite interesting.

[W Sibs]

I have a CKCS x and he is all sort of wrong. Wouldn't trade him for the world though!! Hasn't deterred me from getting another CKCS (a purebred CKCS) in the future, but I will do a lot of research and study the lines and get one too.

But you should be doing that with any breed of dog you get, all breeds have their own issues.

[LizT]

Oh Arcane that is really sad

Would you consider asking their owners where they got their Cav's from? Would be interesting to determine whether they were all coming from the same place.

Maybe I should start taking notes. It may be quite interesting.

Could be intersting to do.

One point though, every dog you groom would most likely be a 'pet" and not of breeding stock as any breeder/exhibitor would be grooming their own dogs and not sending them to a dog groomer. So sadly, you are potentially seeing the bottom end of the gene pool in the area you reside in. That said however, many good breeders sell quality health tested Show potential puppies as pets as you can only run on so many dogs.

[Guest Arcane]

Oh Arcane that is really sad

Would you consider asking their owners where they got their Cav's from? Would be interesting to determine whether they were all coming from the same place.

Maybe I should start taking notes. It may be quite interesting.

Could be intersting to do.

One point though, every dog you groom would most likely be a 'pet" and not of breeding stock as any breeder/exhibitor would be grooming their own dogs and not sending them to a dog groomer. So sadly, you are potentially seeing the bottom end of the gene pool in the area you reside in. That said however, many good breeders sell quality health tested Show potential puppies as pets as you can only run on so many dogs.

I don't expect to see show dogs walking in my door that is for sure, but pet owners still deserve to have pets of sound body & mind. If what I see in this breed turned out to be the second skimmings from registered ethical & show breeders then i'd be really sad about that.

[Guest lavendergirl]

The 'bite & dentition' issues I mention are not about a few teeth being crooked or slight misalignment. I groom several that have the most shocking of overbite. 1/2 to 1.5 inches. I just haven't seen this in other breeds like i see it in the Cavs I groom. I have 3 cavs in today and one of them is as I describe with a shocking overbite.

The feet & toes on many of the cavs I groom are really bad too. i groom quite a few with only 3 toes on at least one foot, several with four toes but one of the outer toes is severely stunted, and I even groom one with five toes on both front feet not including the dew claw. Again something I just don't see in other breeds.

I'm not trying to diss the breed either. I am simply stating my observations as fact.

I would also entertain the idea of owning one myself. I do quite like them.....But I know I would my doing the mountain of research too.

WOW! This is a phenonomen I am TOTALLY unfamiliar with. Certainly hasn't happened to any breeders pups I pesonally am aware of. Your experience has made me want to look into this further. I can understand a puppy being born with a deformity, nature does do weird things sometimes, but you make it sound quite prevalent and not "random" as these things usually are.

When my own childen were born I did the usually new baby "count the fingers and toes thing" as we new mums do. We go over our precious ones with a fine tooth combs. :) I do check over the new puppies closely but haven't count "fingers and toes" as yet. That is a new one for me.

Off to do some research on this one.

Here is the bite I was talking about on the one I did today. It's plain to see it is a serious overbite & this is not the worst one I see. I counted & currently I have a relatively small number of CKCS clients at 39, and 6 of them have serious overbites similar to this one. I'm starting to wonder if I do see a lot of dogs from the same faulty lines or sires or something!

Another I groomed today has ulcerated eyes as well as cataracts so is effectively blind in one eye & can't see out the other, has a major crust on his nose, suffers skin problems, and air scratches at the drop of a hat which is miserable to watch & really difficult to manage during the groom! He is also prone to random aggressive outbursts so untypical of the breed. I got a video of him but i'm not sure how to link it here.

Just curious if the owners have told you what causes this? He sounds very miserable poor little fella

[Guest Arcane]

The 'bite & dentition' issues I mention are not about a few teeth being crooked or slight misalignment. I groom several that have the most shocking of overbite. 1/2 to 1.5 inches. I just haven't seen this in other breeds like i see it in the Cavs I groom. I have 3 cavs in today and one of them is as I describe with a shocking overbite.

The feet & toes on many of the cavs I groom are really bad too. i groom quite a few with only 3 toes on at least one foot, several with four toes but one of the outer toes is severely stunted, and I even groom one with five toes on both front feet not including the dew claw. Again something I just don't see in other breeds.

I'm not trying to diss the breed either. I am simply stating my observations as fact.

I would also entertain the idea of owning one myself. I do quite like them.....But I know I would my doing the mountain of research too.

WOW! This is a phenonomen I am TOTALLY unfamiliar with. Certainly hasn't happened to any breeders pups I pesonally am aware of. Your experience has made me want to look into this further. I can understand a puppy being born with a deformity, nature does do weird things sometimes, but you make it sound quite prevalent and not "random" as these things usually are.

When my own childen were born I did the usually new baby "count the fingers and toes thing" as we new mums do. We go over our precious ones with a fine tooth combs. :) I do check over the new puppies closely but haven't count "fingers and toes" as yet. That is a new one for me.

Off to do some research on this one.

Here is the bite I was talking about on the one I did today. It's plain to see it is a serious overbite & this is not the worst one I see. I counted & currently I have a relatively small number of CKCS clients at 39, and 6 of them have serious overbites similar to this one. I'm starting to wonder if I do see a lot of dogs from the same faulty lines or sires or something!

Another I groomed today has ulcerated eyes as well as cataracts so is effectively blind in one eye & can't see out the other, has a major crust on his nose, suffers skin problems, and air scratches at the drop of a hat which is miserable to watch & really difficult to manage during the groom! He is also prone to random aggressive outbursts so untypical of the breed. I got a video of him but i'm not sure how to link it here.

Just curious if the owners have told you what causes this? He sounds very miserable poor little fella

The owners wouldn't have a clue. Often the case I find owners only see their own dogs and perhaps a few other friends dogs etc, and don't really even know that some of their dogs behaviours & health issues are issues at all!

[Sheridan]

Oh Arcane that is really sad

Would you consider asking their owners where they got their Cav's from? Would be interesting to determine whether they were all coming from the same place.

Maybe I should start taking notes. It may be quite interesting.

Could be intersting to do.

One point though, every dog you groom would most likely be a 'pet" and not of breeding stock as any breeder/exhibitor would be grooming their own dogs and not sending them to a dog groomer. So sadly, you are potentially seeing the bottom end of the gene pool in the area you reside in. That said however, many good breeders sell quality health tested Show potential puppies as pets as you can only run on so many dogs.

Assumption much?

[Guest lavendergirl]

The 'bite & dentition' issues I mention are not about a few teeth being crooked or slight misalignment. I groom several that have the most shocking of overbite. 1/2 to 1.5 inches. I just haven't seen this in other breeds like i see it in the Cavs I groom. I have 3 cavs in today and one of them is as I describe with a shocking overbite.

The feet & toes on many of the cavs I groom are really bad too. i groom quite a few with only 3 toes on at least one foot, several with four toes but one of the outer toes is severely stunted, and I even groom one with five toes on both front feet not including the dew claw. Again something I just don't see in other breeds.

I'm not trying to diss the breed either. I am simply stating my observations as fact.

I would also entertain the idea of owning one myself. I do quite like them.....But I know I would my doing the mountain of research too.

WOW! This is a phenonomen I am TOTALLY unfamiliar with. Certainly hasn't happened to any breeders pups I pesonally am aware of. Your experience has made me want to look into this further. I can understand a puppy being born with a deformity, nature does do weird things sometimes, but you make it sound quite prevalent and not "random" as these things usually are.

When my own childen were born I did the usually new baby "count the fingers and toes thing" as we new mums do. We go over our precious ones with a fine tooth combs. :) I do check over the new puppies closely but haven't count "fingers and toes" as yet. That is a new one for me.

Off to do some research on this one.

Here is the bite I was talking about on the one I did today. It's plain to see it is a serious overbite & this is not the worst one I see. I counted & currently I have a relatively small number of CKCS clients at 39, and 6 of them have serious overbites similar to this one. I'm starting to wonder if I do see a lot of dogs from the same faulty lines or sires or something!

Another I groomed today has ulcerated eyes as well as cataracts so is effectively blind in one eye & can't see out the other, has a major crust on his nose, suffers skin problems, and air scratches at the drop of a hat which is miserable to watch & really difficult to manage during the groom! He is also prone to random aggressive outbursts so untypical of the breed. I got a video of him but i'm not sure how to link it here.

Just curious if the owners have told you what causes this? He sounds very miserable poor little fella

The owners wouldn't have a clue. Often the case I find owners only see their own dogs and perhaps a few other friends dogs etc, and don't really even know that some of their dogs behaviours & health issues are issues at all!

Well you would hope that if they care enough to get their dog groomed they would care enough to get it veterinary attention.

[cavNrott]

I have two Cavaliers and in reference to the teeth/dentition issue, my boy is now 8 yr + 2 months old old and my girl is 7yo. Neither Cavalier has ever needed a dental. Their teeth are checked every six months in the course of their health check and all teeth are in perfect condition. No misalignment.

Both my dogs are from registered breeders. My boy had never had a sick day until he ruptured a disk in his spine at 5yr +7 months old. He had surgery and recovered perfectly. He was diagnosed with a grade 1 murmur soon after his spinal surgery and was checked 3 weeks ago, still grade one at present.

My 7yo girl is deaf but has not had any other health problems that were not due to outside influences i.e. obstruction surgery due to eating fruit stones and one attack of pancreatitis 3 years ago due to a visiting child feeding the dog cheescake. No further pancreatitis issues.

I've had less health problems with my Cavaliers than I had with my beloved dog of a different breed who I lost to cancer at 7yo. She was from a registered breeder and had joint issues well prior to the cancer that took her.

[wuffles]

I grew up with one and he was perfectly healthy. Died at 10 of a brain tumour.

[Kaffy Magee]

I haven't read all of this thread but wanted to saythat when I was at the vets the other week, a vet nurse had just bought herself a little cav puppy. She was showing it off to a client and saying how cavs are so in bred you can't buy one that doesn't have health problems, so she has already worked out how much it's going to cost her down the track for heart mess etc . It's sad when people held in suc high regard are telling this tothe general public. I like this vet nurse , she is lovely and hopefully one day I'll be able to set her straight but unfortunately I had my hands full the day I heard her say it. I don't know too much about how common certain health issues are in cavs but Im pretty sure theres plenty of healthy ones out there being bred by reputable breeders. It's probably that there are more unhealthy ones being bred by not so reputable "breeders" and being one of the most popular breeds in the country I guess it's bound to have an effect.

[OSoSwift]

Unfortunately I would say 98 to 99% of the CKCS I see down here are BYB. A person was breeding , had three litters and there was at least one in each litter with a jaw like the pictures above. Some of them have horrendous temperments, I mean a Cav trying to attack a dog walking past that doesn't even acknowledge it is there.

Most are overweight, some have died from diabeties.

Some of them are gorgeous little dogs with no obvious issues as yet, I think the eldest litter are around 3 ???

I LOVE Cav's and we seriously considered getting one. I did lots of research and had started contacting some breeders, we decided to get another Whippet. I would be going to the breeder with sport and ET titles, lovely sound dogs there :)

[OSoSwift]

Arcane if you are seeing a vast majority of dogs with weird/missing toes I am guessing their genetic bases are very similer.

I have seen the odd one with the nose issues, some with the knee issues and a couple with ehart issues but most I have seen have lived well past double figures. We will see what the BYBers dogs live to given time.

[LizT]

Oh Arcane that is really sad

Would you consider asking their owners where they got their Cav's from? Would be interesting to determine whether they were all coming from the same place.

Maybe I should start taking notes. It may be quite interesting.

Could be intersting to do.

One point though, every dog you groom would most likely be a 'pet" and not of breeding stock as any breeder/exhibitor would be grooming their own dogs and not sending them to a dog groomer. So sadly, you are potentially seeing the bottom end of the gene pool in the area you reside in. That said however, many good breeders sell quality health tested Show potential puppies as pets as you can only run on so many dogs.

Assumption much?

Yes, my assumption. I personally don't know of any Cavalier breeder/exhibitor who would not be doing their own dogs. Particularly as it is only the pets who would have a need for clipping or major trimmings etc.

Edited July 19, 2012 by LizT

[LizT]

Oh Arcane that is really sad

Would you consider asking their owners where they got their Cav's from? Would be interesting to determine whether they were all coming from the same place.

Maybe I should start taking notes. It may be quite interesting.

Could be intersting to do.

One point though, every dog you groom would most likely be a 'pet" and not of breeding stock as any breeder/exhibitor would be grooming their own dogs and not sending them to a dog groomer. So sadly, you are potentially seeing the bottom end of the gene pool in the area you reside in. That said however, many good breeders sell quality health tested Show potential puppies as pets as you can only run on so many dogs.

I don't expect to see show dogs walking in my door that is for sure, but pet owners still deserve to have pets of sound body & mind. If what I see in this breed turned out to be the second skimmings from registered ethical & show breeders then i'd be really sad about that.

Yes, so would I be but remember ethical and registered are two separate words with distinctly different meanings.

Someone in S.A. mentioned there was a Puppy Miller" churning out dogs at a great rate a few years back.

And as Ososwift stated, these dogs may be all closely related.

I've asked contacts on a closed international Cavliers Breeders list about feet deformities and it's not really something that has been seen "ALOT".

One breeder has seen three in 37 years.

Another none in 20 years.

Another one in 40 years.

These are either the outside toe missing or a short toe.

So no, not "ALOT" seen by these breeders.

I mean nature does throw the odd curve ball. Recently I heard of a puppy born with one eye not formed. Something like that can happen in any breed though.

Edited July 19, 2012 by LizT