Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Without Health Issues.

[Guest Arcane]

Actually just last Saturday I saw probably the saddest thing i'd come across in the breed when a client arrived for their first appt with a 3kg CKCS! I kid you not the dog was barely bigger than a Chihuahua at 12 months old! It was to my eye absolutely all CKCS, just in miniature!. It had the worst knees i've seen on any dog in a long time, and I really dread what the future holds for the poor little thing. I'm pretty sure they will bring him back so I will be sure to get a picture.

[Timokym]

I must say, I really am quite shocked and appalled by the posts and attitude towards the breed. No, the breed is not 'too far' gone.

My apologies for my first post, I confused a number of posts as being additional posts from the first poster.

We have had Cavaliers for almost 25 years now, and I am yet to come across half of the issues you have mentioned that are apparently 'common' for the breed. All of our dogs have lived to anywhere between 10 - 15 years of age. As a registered breeder, I know I speak for the majority of the Cavalier world when I say we breed to improve the breed and erradicate known health problems.

I find it almost incredible that you have come across so many Cavaliers with such a dramatic display of health issues, and wonder whether the health issues you've seen are in fact from pedigree dogs/registered breeders, or perhaps puppies purchased from pet shops and backyard breeders, who do not health test or screen for the wellbeing of their puppies.

The reverse sneezing as you call it,is something that is common in many Brachycephalic dogs (dogs with short noses) - not a genetic, or significant health issue.

It is unlikely that you would be able to purchase a show quality dog as a pet (conforming to your standards of coat, shape, size, movement etc) as these dogs are kept by their breeders to better the breed.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Timokym

[Blackdogs]

I must say, I really am quite shocked and appalled by your post and attitude towards the breed.

First and foremost, I find it interesting that you claim to know so much about the breed, especially the short falls or health problems, yet you failed to get the breed name correct in the subject of your post. Furthermore, I am curious as to why, if you are so adamant that there are so many health issues within the breed, especially within South Australia, you are seeking opinions from breeders when you clearly have already made up your mind?

We have had Cavaliers for almost 25 years now, and I am yet to come across half of the issues you have mentioned that are apparently 'common' for the breed. All of our dogs have lived to anywhere between 10 - 15 years of age. As a registered breeder, I know I speak for the majority of the Cavalier world when I say we breed to improve the breed and erradicate known health problems.

I find it almost incredible that you have come across so many Cavaliers with such a dramatic display of health issues, and wonder whether the health issues you've seen are in fact from pedigree dogs/registered breeders, or perhaps puppies purchased from pet shops and backyard breeders, who do not health test or screen for the wellbeing of their puppies.

The reverse sneezing as you call it,is something that is common in many Brachycephalic dogs (dogs with short noses) - not a genetic, or significant health issue.

It is unlikely that you would be able to purchase a show quality dog as a pet (conforming to your standards of coat, shape, size, movement etc) as these dogs are kept by their breeders to better the breed.

Perhaps you would be better looking for another breed? I'm not sure I'd like to be homing one of my puppies with someone so negative.

You seem to be confused. I have only made one post within this thread and that is the original post.

[Timokym]

Blackdogs, you are correct. I just realised that and went to correct my comments, but you'd beaten me to it.

There were a number of posts from a different poster that were very negative, and for some reason, I assumed it was from the initial poster. My apologies for the confusion. Clearly it's time for my bed ;)

[Blackdogs]

Blackdogs, you are correct. I just realised that and went to correct my comments, but you'd beaten me to it.

There were a number of posts from a different poster that were very negative, and for some reason, I assumed it was from the initial poster. My apologies for the confusion. Clearly it's time for my bed ;)

That's ok, I'm equally tired, hence the creative re-ordering of the name in my post!

[Guest Arcane]

I should clarify I do like CKCS. As stated, a well bred sound healthy well groomed one is a sight to behold & a pleasure to know. I have no doubt that many of the ones I groom are bought from less than reputable sources. (like the 3kg one that was bought from a pet shop )

[Blackdogs]

The reason I ask this question is out of sincerity, not some grudge I bear against the breed. I work closely with the veterinary industry and I've honestly barely met a Cavie over the age of five without some kind of health issue.

I sincerely love the breed or I wouldn't have recommended it to my mother in the first place, but I am disheartened to see so many sick dogs in the breed.

Obviously there are some people here who have experienced something different to what I have and this seems promising.

I would like to hear from a Cav breeder who has been in the breed for a while and whose dogs and their offpring have never suffered a genetic health issue common to the breed.

[Timokym]

I should clarify I do like CKCS. As stated, a well bred sound healthy well groomed one is a sight to behold & a pleasure to know. I have no doubt that many of the ones I groom are bought from less than reputable sources. (like the 3kg one that was bought from a pet shop )

And THERE lies the problem. People decide they want a Cavalier, but will not invest in the general cost of adopting a pedigree, well bred dog. Thus, they are bought cheaply from backyard breeders and pet shops where dogs where the dogs are bred and bred, regardless of the health issues. The new owners then decide they want to have 'just one litter', and the cycle of backyard breeders and poorly bred dogs with high health issues continues

Honestly, it's about education. A repoutable breeder will charge anywhere from $600 - $1000 for a well bred, health tested dog. These costs purely reflect the money invested into breeding and health testing for strong, healthy lines.....

I'll get off of my soapbox now!

[Blackdogs]

I should clarify I do like CKCS. As stated, a well bred sound healthy well groomed one is a sight to behold & a pleasure to know. I have no doubt that many of the ones I groom are bought from less than reputable sources. (like the 3kg one that was bought from a pet shop )

There is nothing wrong with stating your findings if they are honest and accurate, Arcane. I have found similar things within the veterinary industry. It's entirely possible that there are just large numbers of less than reputable breeders out there.

I would like to know that it is indeed possible to obtain a Cav with a guaranteed freedom of genetic health issues.

[Blackdogs]

I should clarify I do like CKCS. As stated, a well bred sound healthy well groomed one is a sight to behold & a pleasure to know. I have no doubt that many of the ones I groom are bought from less than reputable sources. (like the 3kg one that was bought from a pet shop )

And THERE lies the problem. People decide they want a Cavalier, but will not invest in the general cost of adopting a pedigree, well bred dog. Thus, they are bought cheaply from backyard breeders and pet shops where dogs where the dogs are bred and bred, regardless of the health issues. The new owners then decide they want to have 'just one litter', and the cycle of backyard breeders and poorly bred dogs with high health issues continues

Honestly, it's about education. A repoutable breeder will charge anywhere from $600 - $1000 for a well bred, health tested dog. These costs purely reflect the money invested into breeding and health testing for strong, healthy lines.....

I'll get off of my soapbox now!

Can I ask your experience with the breed, Timokym?

[Timokym]

Blackdogs, we purchased our fist Cavalier when I was five (many moons ago). We've had very few litters, and have never had any of the health problems mentioned in a previous post.... There is hope. I promise! Just make sure you purchase from someone who is registered with the Canine body of their state (or your state) and make sure they are a member of their local Cavalier Club. This should help safeguard you from serious health problems..... Meet with plenty of breeders and find one you are comfortable with.... And please, don't use DOL as a reliable form of reputable breeders. In the past eight years, I have seen so MANY registered 'backyard breeders' (people who breed for the money and don't exhibit) pop up online, many of whom I've never heard of!

[Blackdogs]

Blackdogs, we purchased our fist Cavalier when I was five (many moons ago). We've had very few litters, and have never had any of the health problems mentioned in a previous post.... There is hope. I promise! Just make sure you purchase from someone who is registered with the Canine body of their state (or your state) and make sure they are a member of their local Cavalier Club. This should help safeguard you from serious health problems..... Meet with plenty of breeders and find one you are comfortable with.... And please, don't use DOL as a reliable form of reputable breeders. In the past eight years, I have seen so MANY registered 'backyard breeders' (people who breed for the money and don't exhibit) pop up online, many of whom I've never heard of!

That is very heartening, Timokym. I will defintely be going through very select and researched channels when the time comes.

[Miss Lady]

The clincher for me is the fact that many many CKCS owners I talk to admit they very much love their dog, but admit they will not have another due to the heartache & expense they have endured with the first one.

How very strange... I've never heard this from a CKCS owner. It's rare to find a Cavalier owner with just one Cav and those with only one wish they could have more but can't only due to personal circumstances and not the breed.

As with any breed - registered, reputable breeders will do everything in their power to ensure their puppies do not develop such problems as MVD, SM/CM. The major problems come from inexperienced breeders, backyard breeders and puppy farmers.

Blackdogs - you do need to be aware of these key health issues and question the breeder in regards to these http://www.cavaliersa.com/health.htm. The other issues Arcane mentioned are rare and I wouldn't say are common to the breed.

My Cavalier, Lady, is 1 year and 8 months old. She has never had any medical issues. However, I do have pet health insurance as I know problems can arise over time (although, I would have this for any breed of dog).

She has been an absolute ray of sunshine in my life and I cannot recommend this breed enough to people who want a loving companion. Lady is friendly with strangers, children, and she never barks. She does suffer some separation anxiety as she wants to be around people all the time. Cavaliers are recommended to people who are at home most of the time (I work from home, so this suits me).

When I am in a position to get another dog, I will most definitely be getting another Cavalier.

[Alkhe]

I don't understand why people get offended when questions like the OP's question are asked. I don't know much about CKCS, beyond having met lots of pets etc, and my impression has also been that they are prone to quite a few health problems. That impression may be wrong, but to be "offended" or respond in such a sarcastic manner, as in "you've got to be KIDDING, are you SERIOUSLY even asking that question!" is counter-productive.

By all means, people with breed experience and who know and own or breed healthy dogs should correct that assumption if it's incorrect, but to flat out deny that it's the case seems quite ridiculous to me. Most breeds are associated with some kind of health problem, and of course, some a prone to more problems than others. It doesn't mean you can't get a healthy specimen and find a good breeder who endeavours to eliminate those problems in the breed. I'm sure that many people's bad experiencse are through BYB dogs or irresponsibly bred dogs- but those are still experiences, and they colour people's understanding. Let's at least acknowledge that.

I personally know a couple of owners who have owned CKCS before, and have also said that they would not get another one in the future due to having lost a dog/s prematurely. To deny that that's the case is a bit ridiculous. It's not something confined to that breed - I know people who have owned Irish Wolfhounds and Great Danes who love hte breed but have said that they couldn't own another, as they couldn't deal wtih the short lifespan. It's just.. a fact.

[Guest donatella]

I don't understand why people get offended when questions like the OP's question are asked. I don't know much about CKCS, beyond having met lots of pets etc, and my impression has also been that they are prone to quite a few health problems. That impression may be wrong, but to be "offended" or respond in such a sarcastic manner, as in "you've got to be KIDDING, are you SERIOUSLY even asking that question!" is counter-productive.

By all means, people with breed experience and who know and own or breed healthy dogs should correct that assumption if it's incorrect, but to flat out deny that it's the case seems quite ridiculous to me. Most breeds are associated with some kind of health problem, and of course, some a prone to more problems than others. It doesn't mean you can't get a healthy specimen and find a good breeder who endeavours to eliminate those problems in the breed. I'm sure that many people's bad experiencse are through BYB dogs or irresponsibly bred dogs- but those are still experiences, and they colour people's understanding. Let's at least acknowledge that.

I personally know a couple of owners who have owned CKCS before, and have also said that they would not get another one in the future due to having lost a dog/s prematurely. To deny that that's the case is a bit ridiculous. It's not something confined to that breed - I know people who have owned Irish Wolfhounds and Great Danes who love hte breed but have said that they couldn't own another, as they couldn't deal wtih the short lifespan. It's just.. a fact.

Took the words right out of my mouth and said it better then I ever could.

I'm sure Arcane wasn't making these stories up just to entertain everyone, that is her experience, believe it or not, I don't know why people would take it personally. She could probably tell you a host of other breeds with problems but that wouldn't fit in with the current discussion.

There was recently someone wanting to get a puppy here too but unsure whether to get another CKCS as the pup they previously had passed away far too young of a disease and they didn't want to risk getting another pup and it happen again, even though it were their dream breed.

[persephone]

Many years ago I was friends with a breeder of cavs ..and her dogs were delightful - sturdy, chasing birds/cattle ..sound in body and mind (some competed in obedience as well...)

But that was around 30 years ago ...

[indigirl]

Syringomyelia can't be tested for. It's terribly painful for the dog and its the reason I would never own a cav. Breeders trying to say its not a problem I think are in denial or just being naive.

From what I've read online researchers say around 95% of cavs have the Chiari-like malformation in their skull that is part of SM however not all of them go on the develop the condition. They say it's widespread across all breeding lines. It's def more common o/seas than here but it's also in Australia.

My suggestion is to purchase your pup from a reg breeder who is MRI screening ALL their breeding stock for the disease. Unfortunately 2 clears can still produce a pup with SM but if the parents have a Grade A result the pups are less likely to develop CM.

[Crisovar]

I am saying this purely from my 25 yrs of experience behind a grooming table after having handled many many dozens of pet CKCS up close & personally and also knowing & talking to their owners.

I would have to say they are the most unhealthy breed I come across.

Heart problems

Eye problems

Skin problems

major conformation issues resulting in mobility problems & pain & discomfort

Ear Problems

Reverse sneeze thingy. I don't think i've ever met one that doesn't start snorting the second they get a bit excited (usually when their owners come to collect them) I have also stood ringside many a time to watch the CKCS's shuffling around the ring snorting!

many I see have bite & dentition issues

Many I see have malformed feet & toes

Many have naso-digital hyperkerotosis (sp?)

Many I see have behavioural issues such as air sucking/gulping, air scratching, unusual & inappropriate vocalisation

Then there is the life span. I rarely meet CKCS over 7yrs, if they make 9 they've done well & anything over 10 seems to be almost miraculous....in a breed that really should expect a healthy 12-15 yrs.

And dare we mention syringomyelia

The clincher for me is the fact that many many CKCS owners I talk to admit they very much love their dog, but admit they will not have another due to the heartache & expense they have endured with the first one.

This is just anecdotal from grooming so so many of this breed. It's rare for me to see one that is the right size with the right coat, with a sound mind & body.

I see other breeds/types with health issues but nothing like what I see in CKCS.

Maybe you live in an area where there is a pocket of byb or puppy farmers churning out badly bred CKCS, the only common health issue with the CKCS that I see is obesity. I have a couple of clients with heart issues but they are in their teens.

[Blackdogs]

Syringomyelia can't be tested for. It's terribly painful for the dog and its the reason I would never own a cav. Breeders trying to say its not a problem I think are in denial or just being naive.

From what I've read online researchers say around 95% of cavs have the Chiari-like malformation in their skull that is part of SM however not all of them go on the develop the condition. They say it's widespread across all breeding lines. It's def more common o/seas than here but it's also in Australia.

My suggestion is to purchase your pup from a reg breeder who is MRI screening ALL their breeding stock for the disease. Unfortunately 2 clears can still produce a pup with SM but if the parents have a Grade A result the pups are less likely to develop CM.

This is what worries me. If I had some kind of guarrantee that I could get a dog without genetic issues I wouldn't hesitate, but what I've read and heard indicates otherwise.

Eg, "Heart mitral valve disease (MVD) is the leading cause of death of cavalier King Charles spaniels throughout the world. MVD is a polygenetic disease which afflicts over half of all cavaliers by age 5 years and nearly all cavaliers by age 10 years, should they survive that long."

http://www.cavalierhealth.org/mitral_valve_disease.htm

If I could get one breeder to respond that none of the dogs they've ever bred have suffered from genetic health issues I would find that comforting.

[espinay2]

I do think we have to be careful about judging a breed by the dogs seen in a vet clinic though.

Remembering that those particular individuals that are seen there the most will often be there because they have an issue and will therefore perhaps present a skewed sample?

Particularly given that the healthy ones may only appear at the vets perhaps every 3 years to be vaccinated.