How Much Do You Exercise Your Bc Pup?

[Kavik]

All I know is that I saw dogs that came all the time to the daycare get chronic problems very early in life, that to me could be linked to overexercise. Now not all these dogs were well bred (lots of oodles and pet shop dogs) and not all were working dogs, but certainly I saw the price they paid.

Obviously my Kelpies are pets/sporting dogs and not working dogs, so not expected to work all day. But how well do those dogs age, that are run til they can't run anymore? Are they still happy and active into their teens? OBviously a working life is harder on a dog than a pet or sporting life.

[Starkehre]

When I was a child we had working BC's and Kelpies. I understand the importance of not over exercising dogs, particularly certain breeds, but our working pups would run along next to us on horseback until they couldn't run anymore, then they'd be piggy backed on the horse. The fellow next door breeds top notch working Kelpies and his pups go out with him all day and are expected to keep up In fact this is what all the farmers did when I was a kid. None of the dogs had joint issues, they would work all day and night if they could. My brother still has work dogs and pups are also expected to keep up. He has a new 7 month old who is out with him all day, everyday.

Just wondering what has changed, aside from opinion? Are we breeding softer/weaker working breeds?

Good point Clyde.

I think the difference is that possibly pet and sporting dog owners as opposed to serious working farm dogs are not necessarily weaker/softer, but some of the owners may be a tad more wary of these mentioned issues.

I totally get that farm working dogs have a lot of hard work to do and I love a dog that is working doing what it was bred to do... but saying that they didn't have any joint problems may not necessarily be fact. I am not saying that they did have joint problems or that they would definitely get joint problems if exercised hard from a young age, but dogs in drive will often not allow issues to be visible in movement... meaning, if they are sore it may not be apparent. These dogs' work ethic is so strong, that they would work regardless of pain.

I have my dogs gone over by their myotherapist every fortnight. Sometimes I can tell if they are sore prior to being checked and other times it is not visible. I prefer to have them fixed anyway because I do not want them to suffer and I want them to achieve their best.

Anyway, just my opinion.

Personally, I would not risk over working a young pup. Not worth it to me, but it is a personal thing.

Edited July 19, 2012 by dyzney

[Pretty Miss Emma]

My last BC pup and my current BC pup pretty much only had free-play plus a short walk. With Kenz she had this til at least 9 months old possibly older. A walk for my pups is one that is done at their pace with lots of stopping for sniffing and it's more about learning to walk on a lead and to be able to do simple obedience behaviours in a distracting environment. But we do lots of brain work!! Currently Hamish is probably doing about 30 minutes each night of thinking work (broken up in to several short sessions), and I have to say when it is bed time he is tuckered out!! He also has Kenzie to play with so they do lots of wrestling, etc and that also helps to wear him out. He's a working dog so he loves using his brain and I love it because it means I get a tired puppy.

I have to say personally in terms of adding glucosamine to a puppy's food - I think it's just spending unnecessary money. I would have thought a puppy shouldn't need this unless there is already some existing problem.

[dancinbcs]

Thanks again for all the further posts.

I think i need to clarify some things. The vet stressed the importance of the pace and vigour of running/biking - SLOW. And it is. The main reason he came with me on bike rides is because i hurt my back and walking was off the cards for a while, the riding is never done faster than I could walk. And as for my jogging; well...i'm sure if Calvin could laugh at my attempt at jogging pace, he would, its certainly not strenuous :laugh: He certainly never gets a great deal of pace up and the time we do this for would be faily close to 5 minutes.

The vet recommended a glucosamine formula and I chose jointguard for no particular reason other than it was just that.

I appreciate now that I have underestimated the mental exercise side of things and am taking steps to reconcile that.

I'm interested in this concept of 'self-exercise'; what exactly does that mean? The title in itself suggests he be left outside to his own devices during the day? I thought this was the very thing that led to destructive behaviour.

Calvin isn't destructive - I think 1 dripper (which indeed I left in an inappropriate, reachable place for a puppy - he didn't pull it out the ground) and one CD which was had already fallen off the scarecrow hardly describes a destructive puppy - I should've been more specific it seems.

I just dont think he was sleeping that well out there. But, knowing him reasonably well, I think an exchange of some physical exercise for more mental ones, focusing on keeping him awake as long as possible during the day - nanna naps are out! I think this will make a significant difference.

Thanks again

Sorry but your vet is absolutely wrong. Gaiting a dog alongside a bike is the worse thing you can do at this age. The contstant steady pace for that long is what wears joints out. 5 minutes is fine, an hour isn't, even 30 minutes isn't. Far better to have a stop and start walk with time to sniff and vary the pace and direction. It is less stressful on growing joints. Also let the puppy rest when he wants to. Borders tend to have two speeds, flat out and asleep.

Self exercise is running around the 2 acres, with you wandering about and doing short training or play sessions between just letting him run.

As for dogs being softer these days, the survival of the fittest used to( and sometimes still does) apply to farm dogs so any dog that was badly injured was shot not fixed and the farmer wasn't bothered if the dog became arthritic in it's old age either as he would have had years of work out of the dog first. Working farm dogs have a pretty harsh life and their well being is often not a top priority because they are easily replaced in many cases without sentimental attachment. Not all farmers are like that but many are.

[persephone]

When I was a child we had working BC's and Kelpies. I understand the importance of not over exercising dogs, particularly certain breeds, but our working pups would run along next to us on horseback until they couldn't run anymore, then they'd be piggy backed on the horse. The fellow next door breeds top notch working Kelpies and his pups go out with him all day and are expected to keep up In fact this is what all the farmers did when I was a kid. None of the dogs had joint issues, they would work all day and night if they could. My brother still has work dogs and pups are also expected to keep up. He has a new 7 month old who is out with him all day, everyday.

Just wondering what has changed, aside from opinion? Are we breeding softer/weaker working breeds?

Clyde - I think one of the BIG differences is that these dogs are working on soil/grass ..not concrete/paving , compacted gravel /;roads.

We rarely have any joint issues with our dogs ..until they hit double figures ..then they slow down and are retired if they are finding things too difficult.

Pups too, are tackling different substrates etc from a very young age ..ours wander from their kennel/nest at around 4 weeks ..and learn to cope with sand/undergrowth etc ..but they are self exercising only .

Pups are only allowed to free run for their first 3 months ..then it's pen and chain training . Many folks here keep them penned/chained from an earlier age "to stop their feet spreading from too much running"

When our pups start work, they are worked one day, rested the next ..and a lot of the time when they are 'at work' they are on a chain , watching. We would not expect a young dog to work more than a few hours a day at first ..

Mind you, HOW they sometimes avoid injury is beyond me .. one 4 mth old jumped off a retaining wall .. almost 6 feet,onto a concrete verandah ... not a sign of any injury!

[BC Crazy]

As we don't have a large backyard so I walk my 2 Border's each day for up to 3 hours each morning. My girl is 18 months & I have a male who is 4. Within that time there are some shoer training sessions & general

good manners learnt while on lead. With some off leash time to go & explore in both beach & bush locations. Lots of play,tug games & fetch. Also a swim each day. They both settle very well in the afternoon & then they

come indoors around 4 ish pm for the evening where they settle in the lounge room with OH & myself. We play & interact with both of them during the evening & then it's light's out by 9.30pm in there crates.

This routine is what seems to work for us. The dogs seem to be content & happy. It may not work for everyone.

I totally agree with dancinbcs, I would never run/bike ride with a young dog who is under 2 years at all. Even then I just think the impact & stress on their joints is far to great & just IMO an unnecessary thing to

have them do. You can't see the damage that it is doing till it is done. There are so many other ways to interact with them that are far more healthier option for your Border. I think it is also important to have them learn that they need to have an on/off button. There is time to exercise/play & then they must have some settle time when they are asked & this has to be taught by conditioning them. I NEVER wake a sleeping puppy or dog, nor do I agree with NOT

allowing them to nap during the day.That's just me. Mine sleep when they want to. I also don't think you need to be giving a young dog Jointguard as a preventitive. Never heard it used like that. If there isn't an medical

problem, why medicate would be my question. Calvin sounds like he is a very smart boy who knows more tricks than my girl :laugh: with 2 acres to self exercise & roam on, lucky boy.

Edited July 19, 2012 by BC Crazy

[BCNut]

Thanks again for all the further posts.

I think i need to clarify some things. The vet stressed the importance of the pace and vigour of running/biking - SLOW. And it is. The main reason he came with me on bike rides is because i hurt my back and walking was off the cards for a while, the riding is never done faster than I could walk. And as for my jogging; well...i'm sure if Calvin could laugh at my attempt at jogging pace, he would, its certainly not strenuous :laugh: He certainly never gets a great deal of pace up and the time we do this for would be faily close to 5 minutes.

The vet recommended a glucosamine formula and I chose jointguard for no particular reason other than it was just that.

I appreciate now that I have underestimated the mental exercise side of things and am taking steps to reconcile that.

I'm interested in this concept of 'self-exercise'; what exactly does that mean? The title in itself suggests he be left outside to his own devices during the day? I thought this was the very thing that led to destructive behaviour.

Calvin isn't destructive - I think 1 dripper (which indeed I left in an inappropriate, reachable place for a puppy - he didn't pull it out the ground) and one CD which was had already fallen off the scarecrow hardly describes a destructive puppy - I should've been more specific it seems.

I just dont think he was sleeping that well out there. But, knowing him reasonably well, I think an exchange of some physical exercise for more mental ones, focusing on keeping him awake as long as possible during the day - nanna naps are out! I think this will make a significant difference.

Thanks again

Sorry but your vet is absolutely wrong. Gaiting a dog alongside a bike is the worse thing you can do at this age. The contstant steady pace for that long is what wears joints out. 5 minutes is fine, an hour isn't, even 30 minutes isn't. Far better to have a stop and start walk with time to sniff and vary the pace and direction. It is less stressful on growing joints. Also let the puppy rest when he wants to. Borders tend to have two speeds, flat out and asleep.

Self exercise is running around the 2 acres, with you wandering about and doing short training or play sessions between just letting him run.

As for dogs being softer these days, the survival of the fittest used to( and sometimes still does) apply to farm dogs so any dog that was badly injured was shot not fixed and the farmer wasn't bothered if the dog became arthritic in it's old age either as he would have had years of work out of the dog first. Working farm dogs have a pretty harsh life and their well being is often not a top priority because they are easily replaced in many cases without sentimental attachment. Not all farmers are like that but many are.

Interesting discussion. I appreciate your experience with the breed (somewhat - i am uncertain exactly what that is but you obviously have knowledge behind you); but by the same token I think you are absolutely wrong in stating categorically that a trained professional is absolutely wrong. This is someone who has had years and years of research, training and experience in animal health. Sure, its your prerogative to disagree with any opinion and justify why, but its not fair to state outright that she is wrong. I believe any vet should be fronted more respect than that. I mean no offence or disrespect - I am entirely grateful for your opinion. We are all products of our experiences, inclusive of studies and observations over time and obviously my vet has not seen detriment come from vigorous (but careful) exercising of pups. Obviously you have.

I believe there is a lot of misinformation at the moment, in that; if you have a problem with your dog - the remedy is supposedly exercise, exercise, exercise - and physical exercise at that. There's very little (if any) mention of mental exercise, from the sources of information I use anyway.

Anyway i'll see how he goes with these changes and will report back of course; I think its certainly going to see him much more settled through the night.

[Clyde]

.. but saying that they didn't have any joint problems may not necessarily be fact. I am not saying that they did have joint problems or that they would definitely get joint problems if exercised hard from a young age, but dogs in drive will often not allow issues to be visible in movement... meaning, if they are sore it may not be apparent. These dogs' work ethic is so strong, that they would work regardless of pain.

Clyde - I think one of the BIG differences is that these dogs are working on soil/grass ..not concrete/paving , compacted gravel /;roads.

Thanks guys, I see what you mean, both good points

[persephone]

I believe any vet should be fronted more respect than that.

Vets can do amazing things ... and I do have great respect for them - when they operate within their field of expertise

I worked for a vet for many years .. and had/still have the greatest respect for his knowledge and abilities as a diagnostician and surgeon ..and for his skill in negotiating with clients.

however- he was/is not wonderful in trying to help with behavioural problems , or diet stuff, for example.....

vets have to acquire SO much knowledge..not only dog related ..but rodents/large animal/avian medicine- and they cannot be expected to be absolutely cognisant and correct on everything. (why there are specialists)

..so, yes she may be exactly right .... or she may not be fully aware of the growth/development of working breeds , and how joints do respond to different exercise regimes ..so she recommends jointguard 'just to be safe' ?

My guess is that you explained to her his activity levels and that you were looking for a way to exercise him and settle him a bit?

[wuffles]

I have an Aussie and boy was she a livewire as a pup... I just wanted to reiterate what other people have said about teaching him to be calm and that we can't be on the go 24 hours a day :) At night time my girl was crated, and she certainly complained about it at 5am every morning, but eventually she learnt that it was time for sleep, not play (at first I was putting her outside when she whimpered early of a morning but I found that this just encouraged her to be destructive and noisy, so it changed to a toilet break then back in crate). Now she's free in the house at night and, although she still wakes early, she chills out until we get up.

These days (she's now 2.5) she is content with a 45 minute walk of a morning and some interactive toys while we are at work. She does obedience and agility also, but is just as happy to curl up on the couch with me when I get home. We try not to pander to any demanding actions on her part, because she is smart enough to take advantage :)

Some of the mental activities that helped us were platform work and rear end awareness (videos on Youtube) and transferring that to "find heel" then to heelwork turns and such, lots of tricks, scentwork. Also free play with other working breeds as they tend to just run a lot! You could think about some of the Rally Obedience moves, those are quite fun as well.

Edited July 19, 2012 by wuffles

[DeltaCharlie]

The other difference I guess (and not saying anything about the impact of joints etc) is that a working pup who runs alongside the horse all day, who then grows up to work all day in the field, will spend its entire life being incredibly active. So there is a reasonable expectation that they will be doing a lot of exercise each day of their life. They are not just suddenly expected to settle in a house once they mature, without being taught how to.

The more we do with a dog, the more they expect to do. I know with our BCs if we have a few days in a row of training or walks etc then they start to expect it by the 3rd day. Even the older ones. It then takes a few days before they accept the fact that we are being lazy again :laugh:

We have 9 dogs, 6 of them are border collies plus Charlie who is a cattle dog x. Their combined exercise each WEEK would not even total what your pup is doing every DAY. It is one of the most common myths around about the breed, that they need to be kept incredibly active. Sure, they need exercise, but so does every other breed of dog. The more you do, the fitter they become, and the more they expect.

Our pups are crated at night with a nylabone or empty kong to chew on if they wake up and get bored. During the day they are in a 2.5m x 2.5m dog run, usually with an adult dog for company and lots of toys for them to entertain themselves with. When we get home they get to do a little bit of training or free running in the yard to get the bugs out, but no more than 5-10mins. As many of the adults are crated during the day they get to have free range in the house of an afternoon and the puppies go into crates or pens with different toys or a kong. They just entertain themselves in an environment where they can't get into trouble. After everyone has dinner the puppies get to come out into the lounge room with us where they learn to stay settled and quiet, and develop their off-switch. Then its back into the night time crate for sleeping.

This is not just for baby puppies either. Whip turned 2 the other day and Rush is 19months old, yet they still follow a similar routine. Only difference is that they are sometimes put in a pen together of an afternoon so that they can play, rather than having to entertain themselves. Both pups have learnt how to do that, so it doesn't need to be practised so much any more. We generally have a rule (depending on the dog) that they are crated at night until at least the age of 2 so that they aren't getting up to mischief or annoying the other dogs (and us). Link is nearly 5 and still crated at night (although that has more to do with pack dynamics etc as she has a beautiful off-switch and settles nicely) Whip will probably be crated his entire life :laugh: Rush still consumes everything in sight so won't be trusted in the house unsupervised until she grows out of that, she is getting there though.

I am another one who would never dream of giving a growing dog joint supplements. Their bones are still developing and supplements can throw off the balance of calcium etc in their joints and bones which can actually affect the way they grow and cause them to develop problems later in life. Many of the joint support companies (and I thought Joint Guard was one of them as I use it on Delta) actually state somewhere that it should not ever be used on dogs under the age of 18months.

[Starkehre]

The other difference I guess (and not saying anything about the impact of joints etc) is that a working pup who runs alongside the horse all day, who then grows up to work all day in the field, will spend its entire life being incredibly active. So there is a reasonable expectation that they will be doing a lot of exercise each day of their life. They are not just suddenly expected to settle in a house once they mature, without being taught how to.

The more we do with a dog, the more they expect to do. I know with our BCs if we have a few days in a row of training or walks etc then they start to expect it by the 3rd day. Even the older ones. It then takes a few days before they accept the fact that we are being lazy again :laugh:

We have 9 dogs, 6 of them are border collies plus Charlie who is a cattle dog x. Their combined exercise each WEEK would not even total what your pup is doing every DAY. It is one of the most common myths around about the breed, that they need to be kept incredibly active. Sure, they need exercise, but so does every other breed of dog. The more you do, the fitter they become, and the more they expect.

Our pups are crated at night with a nylabone or empty kong to chew on if they wake up and get bored. During the day they are in a 2.5m x 2.5m dog run, usually with an adult dog for company and lots of toys for them to entertain themselves with. When we get home they get to do a little bit of training or free running in the yard to get the bugs out, but no more than 5-10mins. As many of the adults are crated during the day they get to have free range in the house of an afternoon and the puppies go into crates or pens with different toys or a kong. They just entertain themselves in an environment where they can't get into trouble. After everyone has dinner the puppies get to come out into the lounge room with us where they learn to stay settled and quiet, and develop their off-switch. Then its back into the night time crate for sleeping.

This is not just for baby puppies either. Whip turned 2 the other day and Rush is 19months old, yet they still follow a similar routine. Only difference is that they are sometimes put in a pen together of an afternoon so that they can play, rather than having to entertain themselves. Both pups have learnt how to do that, so it doesn't need to be practised so much any more. We generally have a rule (depending on the dog) that they are crated at night until at least the age of 2 so that they aren't getting up to mischief or annoying the other dogs (and us). Link is nearly 5 and still crated at night (although that has more to do with pack dynamics etc as she has a beautiful off-switch and settles nicely) Whip will probably be crated his entire life :laugh: Rush still consumes everything in sight so won't be trusted in the house unsupervised until she grows out of that, she is getting there though.

I am another one who would never dream of giving a growing dog joint supplements. Their bones are still developing and supplements can throw off the balance of calcium etc in their joints and bones which can actually affect the way they grow and cause them to develop problems later in life. Many of the joint support companies (and I thought Joint Guard was one of them as I use it on Delta) actually state somewhere that it should not ever be used on dogs under the age of 18months.

Well, I wasn't going to say anything as I have no proof, only anecdotal circumstantial evidence, but I believe that glucosamine condroitin may be a cause of things like OCD in growing dogs, particularly larger breeds. The cases I know of are way too many to be a coincidence for me, and I know I am no the only one that has similar opinions on this.

I love glucosamine, big advocate for it, but not in youngsters and not as a preventative.

[dancinbcs]

Thanks again for all the further posts.

I think i need to clarify some things. The vet stressed the importance of the pace and vigour of running/biking - SLOW. And it is. The main reason he came with me on bike rides is because i hurt my back and walking was off the cards for a while, the riding is never done faster than I could walk. And as for my jogging; well...i'm sure if Calvin could laugh at my attempt at jogging pace, he would, its certainly not strenuous :laugh: He certainly never gets a great deal of pace up and the time we do this for would be faily close to 5 minutes.

The vet recommended a glucosamine formula and I chose jointguard for no particular reason other than it was just that.

I appreciate now that I have underestimated the mental exercise side of things and am taking steps to reconcile that.

I'm interested in this concept of 'self-exercise'; what exactly does that mean? The title in itself suggests he be left outside to his own devices during the day? I thought this was the very thing that led to destructive behaviour.

Calvin isn't destructive - I think 1 dripper (which indeed I left in an inappropriate, reachable place for a puppy - he didn't pull it out the ground) and one CD which was had already fallen off the scarecrow hardly describes a destructive puppy - I should've been more specific it seems.

I just dont think he was sleeping that well out there. But, knowing him reasonably well, I think an exchange of some physical exercise for more mental ones, focusing on keeping him awake as long as possible during the day - nanna naps are out! I think this will make a significant difference.

Thanks again

Sorry but your vet is absolutely wrong. Gaiting a dog alongside a bike is the worse thing you can do at this age. The contstant steady pace for that long is what wears joints out. 5 minutes is fine, an hour isn't, even 30 minutes isn't. Far better to have a stop and start walk with time to sniff and vary the pace and direction. It is less stressful on growing joints. Also let the puppy rest when he wants to. Borders tend to have two speeds, flat out and asleep.

Self exercise is running around the 2 acres, with you wandering about and doing short training or play sessions between just letting him run.

As for dogs being softer these days, the survival of the fittest used to( and sometimes still does) apply to farm dogs so any dog that was badly injured was shot not fixed and the farmer wasn't bothered if the dog became arthritic in it's old age either as he would have had years of work out of the dog first. Working farm dogs have a pretty harsh life and their well being is often not a top priority because they are easily replaced in many cases without sentimental attachment. Not all farmers are like that but many are.

Vets know how to do lots of things we don't but they get no specific training in puppy development and training. My vets breed Border Collies so know the breed well. Does your vet? You would also be astounded at how many vets know so little about so many things relating to dogs beyond giving vaccinations and desexing them. I have seen some unbelievably bad advice given and mis diagnosis made. There are some wonderful vets that have done further studies into dog development but this is not something done by the average vet.

I have 29 years experience in the breed with 25+ years on the health/hereditary diseases sub-committee of the BC Club of NSW so know far more about the health and development of the breed specifially than most vets. I have seen puppies crippled by excessive exercise by owners that didn't want to listen to advice.

Also take note of DeltaCharlie's post. Their dogs are as active and high drive as you will ever find in the breed but are also well trained and conditioned to be top winning agility dogs. It is wise to look at how others succesfully raise their dogs of the same breed rather than listen to a vet who has probably never lived with one.

Edited July 19, 2012 by dancinbcs

[Jumabaar]

Thanks again for all the further posts.

I think i need to clarify some things. The vet stressed the importance of the pace and vigour of running/biking - SLOW. And it is. The main reason he came with me on bike rides is because i hurt my back and walking was off the cards for a while, the riding is never done faster than I could walk. And as for my jogging; well...i'm sure if Calvin could laugh at my attempt at jogging pace, he would, its certainly not strenuous :laugh: He certainly never gets a great deal of pace up and the time we do this for would be faily close to 5 minutes.

The vet recommended a glucosamine formula and I chose jointguard for no particular reason other than it was just that.

I appreciate now that I have underestimated the mental exercise side of things and am taking steps to reconcile that.

I'm interested in this concept of 'self-exercise'; what exactly does that mean? The title in itself suggests he be left outside to his own devices during the day? I thought this was the very thing that led to destructive behaviour.

Calvin isn't destructive - I think 1 dripper (which indeed I left in an inappropriate, reachable place for a puppy - he didn't pull it out the ground) and one CD which was had already fallen off the scarecrow hardly describes a destructive puppy - I should've been more specific it seems.

I just dont think he was sleeping that well out there. But, knowing him reasonably well, I think an exchange of some physical exercise for more mental ones, focusing on keeping him awake as long as possible during the day - nanna naps are out! I think this will make a significant difference.

Thanks again

Sorry but your vet is absolutely wrong. Gaiting a dog alongside a bike is the worse thing you can do at this age. The contstant steady pace for that long is what wears joints out. 5 minutes is fine, an hour isn't, even 30 minutes isn't. Far better to have a stop and start walk with time to sniff and vary the pace and direction. It is less stressful on growing joints. Also let the puppy rest when he wants to. Borders tend to have two speeds, flat out and asleep.

Self exercise is running around the 2 acres, with you wandering about and doing short training or play sessions between just letting him run.

As for dogs being softer these days, the survival of the fittest used to( and sometimes still does) apply to farm dogs so any dog that was badly injured was shot not fixed and the farmer wasn't bothered if the dog became arthritic in it's old age either as he would have had years of work out of the dog first. Working farm dogs have a pretty harsh life and their well being is often not a top priority because they are easily replaced in many cases without sentimental attachment. Not all farmers are like that but many are.

Vets know how to do lots of things we don't but they get no specific training in puppy development and training. My vets breed Border Collies so know the breed well. Does your vet? You would also be astounded at how many vets know so little about so many things relating to dogs beyond giving vaccinations and desexing them. I have seen some unbelievably bad advice given and mis diagnosis made. There are some wonderful vets that have done further studies into dog development but this is not something done by the average vet.

I have 29 years experience in the breed with 25+ years on the health/hereditary diseases sub-committee of the BC Club of NSW so know far more about the health and development of the breed specifially than most vets. I have seen puppies crippled by excessive exercise by owners that didn't want to listen to advice.

Also take note of DeltaCharlie's post. Their dogs are as active and high drive as you will ever find in the breed but are also well trained and conditioned to be top winning agility dogs. It is wise to look at how others succesfully raise their dogs of the same breed rather than listen to a vet who has probably never lived with one.

Vets can also give different advice. Mine would shoot me if I did much more than free exercise with my pups.

And when I mentioned agility triple checked about what exactly we did with our foundation training (tiny jumps from 9mths, not full height or any weaving at all till 18mths).

Another vet I had to explain what agility involved- so clearly they are not able to assist me in making the correct decisions about management for that sport. Doesn't make them a crap vet- just one that I don't go to about sporting injuries. Absolute ninja for blood taking though and very knowledgeable in other areas.

[persephone]

Doesn't make them a crap vet- just one that I don't go to about sporting injuries.

:) a bit like GP's .- in our clinic- one is good for internal medicine, one excellent for injuries , one is more understanding of MH issues .. they just can not be good at everything.

[OSoSwift]

I have worked with a few vets, brilliant, trust them with my dogs 100%. However they asked me for training tips and advice, quite often with puppies, and there were quite a few breed specific things they had never heard of why?? they had no need to. I was just a nerd collecting brain fodder. Came in handy more than once :)

The point is on the subject of exercising a young BC I would go with the knowledgable people in this thread before I went with what my very knowledgable, just did major orthopedic surgey on my dogs leg and did a brilliant job, vets

Edited July 19, 2012 by OSoSwift

[Starkehre]

I have worked with a few vets, brilliant, trust them with my dogs 100%. However they asked me for training tips and advice, quite often with puppies, and there were quite a few breed specific things they had never heard of why?? they had no need to. I was just a nerd collecting brain fodder. Came in handy more than once :)

The point is on the subject of exercising a young BC I would go with the knowledgable people in this thread before I went with what my very knowledgable, just did major orthopedic surgey on my dogs leg and did a brilliant job, vets

Couldn't agree more.

I have a brilliant vet. Highly respect them. They are always asking me for advice in areas that are less their forte. Not my current vet but several previous ones I have been to did not know what cold tail was, had never heard of it nor any of the several other names it has.

A brilliant specialist vet I got to know very well because of a serious illness my dog had (she basically saved my dog, so I think she is God) spent one of our specialist consultations asking me a miriad of questions regarding dog behaviours and puppies. I don't have a problem with that.

Two vets I know still do not believe me that suprelorin temporarily makes males lose testosterone based muscle (muscle atrophy) around the head, even when I showed them the measurement evidence.

Like I said previously, great diagnostics, administers of drugs and surgeons.

I have yet to come across any vet (and I have been to many many) that really understands about the risk during growth related to exercise. Not to say they aren't out there, but my guess is they are far and few between. It is just not something they have to be versed in.

It is not about thinking less of vets, not respecting them or not trusting them, it is about knowing what areas they are correctly trained in. Vets are trained to heal and repair. I would never ask a vet about exercise in a young pup as I already know that the answer I would get is unlikely to be something I would agree with, so I just don't go there.

Good breeders of said breeds are the ones to speak to about such things.

And furthermore, it is an amazing beautiful thing seeing a brilliant open minded vet working hand in hand with a brilliant breeder on issues with dogs. These vets respect these breeders and learn a lot from them too. I have seen it in action time and time again.

Edited July 19, 2012 by dyzney

[Rilla-My-Rilla]

Glad I caught this thread. Am about to bring home my first Border Collie, and it's great to be able to read about how others do it, especially those with so much experience. :)

Kelvin is gorgeous by the way :D

[Salukifan]

Interesting discussion. I appreciate your experience with the breed (somewhat - i am uncertain exactly what that is but you obviously have knowledge behind you); but by the same token I think you are absolutely wrong in stating categorically that a trained professional is absolutely wrong. This is someone who has had years and years of research, training and experience in animal health. Sure, its your prerogative to disagree with any opinion and justify why, but its not fair to state outright that she is wrong. I believe any vet should be fronted more respect than that. I mean no offence or disrespect - I am entirely grateful for your opinion. We are all products of our experiences, inclusive of studies and observations over time and obviously my vet has not seen detriment come from vigorous (but careful) exercising of pups. Obviously you have.

I believe there is a lot of misinformation at the moment, in that; if you have a problem with your dog - the remedy is supposedly exercise, exercise, exercise - and physical exercise at that. There's very little (if any) mention of mental exercise, from the sources of information I use anyway.

Anyway i'll see how he goes with these changes and will report back of course; I think its certainly going to see him much more settled through the night.

Well, if it helps any, my vet would say that your vet is absolutely wrong in prescribing gaiting beside a bike as good exercise for such a young pup. That goes double if the bike and dog are on hard surfaces.

Gaiting a dog with growing bones and joints is the fastest recipe for exercise induced OCD that I can think of... and I've seen a Border Collie that's had precisely that issue.

If you wouldn't expect a GP to know everything there is to know about fitness conditioning and training of young athletes, I wonder why you'd expect it of a small animal vet.

Free exercise means offlead exercise - walks etc.

Personally I think ball or frisbee for such young dog needs to be undertaken in moderation also. Slamming stops and landings after leaping can cause damage if done to excess.

Play with your dog offlead, find places where he can swim or walk offlead and exercise his brain as much or more than his body. :) And just as importantly, teach him that he can learn to live with a bit of boredom. Its all part of teaching a dog self control, and they all have to learn it.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[piper]

Well, if it helps any, my vet would say that your vet is absolutely wrong in prescribing gaiting beside a bike as good exercise for such a young pup. That goes double if the bike and dog are on hard surfaces.

Gaiting a dog with growing bones and joints is the fastest recipe for exercise induced OCD that I can think of... and I've seen a Border Collie that's had precisely that issue.

If you wouldn't expect a GP to know everything there is to know about fitness conditioning and training of young athletes, I wonder why you'd expect it of a small animal vet.

Free exercise means offlead exercise - walks etc.

Personally I think ball or frisbee for such young dog needs to be undertaken in moderation also. Slamming stops and landings after leaping can cause damage if done to excess.

Play with your dog offlead, find places where he can swim or walk offlead and exercise his brain as much or more than his body. :)

My vet would also be very strongly against gaiting a dog for a prolonged period as well and would refer to it as "forced exercise" and not suitable for dogs under 12 months and preferably not under 18 months. And for what it's worth he would even recommend against footpath walking on lead more than 10 minutes a couple of times a week as well.

The difference between free exercise and the types of exercise your pup is getting is that in free exercise the pup dictates the speed and direction and if you watch you will see that when free running and playing your pup does not move consistently at the same sped. But instead speeds up, slows down, pauses. A border collie will usually keep going as long as you ask it to so just because it can keep up and look like it can stay with you easily does not mean that it should.

As well as that is the fact that others have stated - the more exercise you give, the more exercise they need. My guys very very rarely get taken for a walks (as in put on lead and taken around the block type of thing) and I am yet to own a destructive, bored border collie. Instead they get free exercise (trips to parks they can run at off leash and even this is not a daily activity and is usually only on weekends), trips to training, regular training at home etc. They are a smart dog and mental stimulation is the first thing they get.