Odd Encounter

[persephone]

...must admit, I can't remember the last time I asked to pat someone's dog - however, I do often ask "may I take a photo?" AND I was once badly caught out , thru not reading the dog correctly

A BIG bull terrier ..chained on a long chain at an auto shop. I had previously said hello, when he was wandering free.. and he had bumped me for pats .. and was all waggy -a gorgeous looking dog ..

so I took a couple of photos , then moved in a bit to get a face shot.

Wrong

I had to step back very smartly ..as he lunged , snarling . Thank goodness I had free space in which to move , as he was not playing.

[Nic.B]

The only thing that I would add is that it would probably best for this owner not to be listening to an ipod while walking the dogs.

I think in that position, I would like to hear and see everything going on around the dogs and I for their own welfare and others.

[trinabean]

The owner has two dogs, well controlled in public and healthy. He walks them twice a day and obviously cares for them. When asked he responsibly requested that you do not pat them. Sounds VERY responsible to me!!

Some dogs can act agressively for a wide variety of reasons and most of them may be nothing to do with what the owner did or didn't do.

I used to have a DA Dalmatian. To look at her, see her with dogs she knows or to pass her in the street you wouldn't have a clue that she had a problem. She could be at a show, under control and not have a problem. BUT at a show when she was a pup she was attacked in the carpark by a loose border collie. As a result she was 'funny like that' when approached by strange black dogs in particular. So impose your scenario on me, and you are walking up with your dog 'can he say hello?' - you keep approaching to towards us with your dog ... Me replies 'no, she isn't friendly...she is funny like that' (I am not about to stand there and explain the whole back story to a stranger!).....just how 'shocked' are you going to be, if she goes off, thinking that you and your dog, who are quite focussed on her and your body language shows it (rather than just passing us by), will keep approaching?

Nothing odd about it at all IMO. In fact the man should be commended for handling his dogs so responsibly and knowing how to manage their issues when in public.

i agree with the above. To me, it sounds as if this man is responsible and knows his dogs limitations/ thresholds. I too think it's possible that one of his dogs learned fearful/aggressive behaviours from the other.

I'll confess my dog dislikes being patted by strangers when on-lead. He is not aggressive but will dodge or jump up on strangers who attempt to pat him. He has never been mistreated but perhaps an outsider may presume he is hand-shy because he has been? I am training him to walk well on lead and focus on, me and I've found that it's better if I keep a bit of space between us and strangers.

So OP I would have politely declined your request for a pat too. :D

[raineth]

hmmm, that is interesting. I know what you mean, he seems very responsible, and the dogs well-behaved, so you would expect that they've been well socialised, and therefore to be human-friendly.

I wonder if he neglected their socialisation in that area?

why is it so hard to believe that some dogs are not born perfect?

I think you've misunderstood, I could ask you, why do you think all aggressive dogs have bad temperaments? I was just suggesting one possible reason for their aggressive behaviour :) Just as you were suggesting that they could just have poor temperaments.

Edited July 15, 2012 by raineth

[huski]

.... WTF!!!!!! how does that work? if you saw these dogs you would think they are the most loved and cared for dogs, yet to see it react like that from a person 5 meters away was just mind boggling....

It sounds like they are loved and cared for dogs? There are many reasons dogs may display aggression. And it certainly doesn't mean the owner doesn't love or care for them :)

I have a dog here I have had from 8 weeks of age. If you saw me walking him in the street you'd probably have the same impression as you did from the man walking his dogs - my dog is calm and well mannered, walks lovely on leash, is very responsive to me. But in the 'right' circumstances he can still show dog aggression and if you approached me with your dog and asked to say hi I'd also say no.

Edited July 15, 2012 by huski

[Rebanne]

hmmm, that is interesting. I know what you mean, he seems very responsible, and the dogs well-behaved, so you would expect that they've been well socialised, and therefore to be human-friendly.

I wonder if he neglected their socialisation in that area?

why is it so hard to believe that some dogs are not born perfect?

I think you've misunderstood, I could ask you, why do you think all aggressive dogs have bad temperaments? I was just suggesting one possible reason for their aggressive behaviour :) Just as you were suggesting that they could just have poor temperaments.

I never mentioned temperament at all. Just cause they might like their own space does not mean they are bad tempered. have you not heard of DINOS?

[TheCheekyMonster]

I could be reading this wrong, but I don't think cheekymonster was saying the owner was irresponsible.

They were just saying it was a bit of shock?

exactly.... i just did not expect the dogs to react like that... there actually was no warning at all and the owner was laughing when he said no... so i thought he was joking.... I thought he was very responsible once I had a chance to think about the situation.... and the dog gave no warning signs to say it was uncomfortable ( i was 5 meters away. its not like i was in the dogs face) and it was as i turned to walk away that it just snapped.... everyones point is very valid... I have never come across such a situation, and seeing these dogs grow up it did take me by surprise that they were reactive.... sorry and i said how does that work because take out the factor that one may have been born with a temperamental issue my knowledge is limited in dog aggression the only thing i know is if a dog is not positively socialised with humans and other dogs they are more susceptible to reacting in a negative way.... not knowing this guy or his dogs for a bar of soap, just seeing them on a regular basis i did assume they would be friendly, obviously thats my bad for assuming every dog who walks like a happy camper with its owner and grand children (who range from 10-15) would be a friendly dog to pat.... i wouldnt be letting the kids walk them though...now i know they react like that.

Edited July 15, 2012 by TheCheekyMonster

[raineth]

Some dogs have a genetic tendency towards acting aggressive in situations they find challenging. A dog like this can develop aggressive habits, even with an owner who is caring and who socialises their dog. An owner isn't around their dog 24 hours a day, and even if they are, some will inadvertently put them in situations that heighten the problem.

Puppies are not blank slates, they all have genetic tendencies and some are naturally more aggressive than others. That's one reason why it's important to buy from a dog whose pedigree is known to contain dogs of good temperament.

I was just referring to the inverse of this statement Rebanne :) probably in too much of a simplistic fashion.

Yeah I've heard of DINOs, as I said before, I was offering one possible explanation for the dogs' responses.

[Malamum]

I also have a dog who will walk perfectly on leash but I will not let anyone approach him in public.

He is very well trained and attended obedience for a good couple of years so was socialised during his formative years but since he developed arthritis he does not like strangers getting too close or touching him.

[TheCheekyMonster]

I would understand if I was close... but I had to pretty much shout for the guy to hear me.... ow well each dog to their own.

[Malamum]

Each dog's critical distance is different.

[koalathebear]

I agree. If they grew up together it is likely that one (probably the kelpie) was born like it and the other learned the behaviour. Growing up we had lots of kelpies and some were not overly friendly.

That's an odd generalisation. Your experience growing doesn't mean that the breed is more likely to be aggressive or unfriendly. I was bitten by a GSD as a child and chased by a few others - doesn't mean I think that the breed tend to be like that generally.

As people have pointed out, it's possible that the dogs just weren't socialised with dogs outside of their pack. In any case, there's nothing wrong or strange about a responsible owner taking his dogs (over which he has control) for a walk and preferring that strangers do not interact with them except on his terms. It's possible that in a play setting or in his home they are friendly but perhaps they have reason to be wary of strangers while on a walk. I don't think it has anything to do with breed and I certainly don't think it's 'odd'. What would be odd was if the dogs looked fine but then attacked people for no reason.

Edited July 15, 2012 by koalathebear

[mixeduppup]

Actually if anything kelpies are likely to pick up on signals from the other dog and express it in overdrive but we'll never really know.

[megan_]

I am surprised that anyone is surprised. Aggression can be genetic. Also, not liking standard doesn't mean that the dos are aggressive either. Since when are all dogs expected to love everyone and enjoy being fawned over by strangers? In fact, some breed standards call for a dog to br aloof.

Next time, please wait for a reply before approaching a dog and take the owners reply seriously.

Edited July 15, 2012 by megan_

[megan_]

I also think that the dog world has oversold socialization. Yes OT is critical, but socialization doesn't = dog likes alll people and dogs

[raineth]

I am surprised that anyone is surprised. Aggression can be genetic. Also, not liking standard doesn't mean that the dos are aggressive either. Since when are all dogs expected to love everyone and enjoy being fawned over by strangers? In fact, some breed standards call for a dog to br aloof.

Next time, please wait for a reply before approaching a dog and take the owners reply seriously.

Yeah but aloof is different to being aggressive. I have an aloof dog, he doesn't care for attention from those outside his pack, but it doesn't lead him to be aggressive either. The owner said they would bite her, so I would class that as aggressive.

[TheCheekyMonster]

I am surprised that anyone is surprised. Aggression can be genetic. Also, not liking standard doesn't mean that the dos are aggressive either. Since when are all dogs expected to love everyone and enjoy being fawned over by strangers? In fact, some breed standards call for a dog to br aloof.

Next time, please wait for a reply before approaching a dog and take the owners reply seriously.

I did wait, I took a step closer to hear the man properly as I was quite some distance away, and the owner was laughing, I've had quite a few people tell me no I cant pat their dog only to find out they are totally taking the micky out of me.... If you are serious about your dog being agressive towards strangers the least an owner could do is be dead serious about it and not imply otherwise....secondly why cant I be suprised? I've never seen any sign of agression from these dogs i've seen children walk them, I have no reason to think they would lunge out... I think being a little taken back is a natural reaction from your average joe like me who doesnt know much about EVERY dog personality... I think its quite arrogant to think people would.... as someone has stated not everyone asks to pat a dog first especially ones that look as deceptive as these two..... I have also stated my street is full of people and children... so I think its a disaster waiting to happen, and the owner actually had not much control over his dog at all when it started to loose it... he actually had to kick it to make it stop....

And not only that, if a dog is likely to bite a human with its owner at the other end of the lead, I beleive that is something to take note of.......If the dog is likely to bite precausions need to be taken... especially if you dont have control over it.. a Muzzle for a start would be helpful.

Edited July 16, 2012 by TheCheekyMonster

[BlaznHotAussies]

Maybe for unfriendly dogs (or aggressive, if you want to call it that...) there needs to be a similar rule to what they have with horses that kick. Like a red ribbon tied to it's collar or something... Just as a universal thing saying "Don't pat this dog - ever" so that if the owner (like this bloke) has earphones on and doesn't hear you to say "no, they're funny" you'll see anyway because they have a ribbon.

I dunno, could be too simplistic but it works at Pony Club

[dee lee]

You don't personally know the guy or his dogs, it sounds to me that he was being very responsible.

There is no need for a muzzle if other people do the right thing. Wearing earplugs is probably one tactic for avoiding people.

Owning an aggressive dog is very challenging, and one of the more difficult aspects is the assumptions that strangers make as to why your dog is that way. Often negative situations have occurred at critical states on a naturally weak nerved dog, very rarely is it the direct fault of the owner.

And I promise you, every (responsible) owner of an aggressive dog would give anything to change their dog's disposition. It's hell to manage.

Having lived with a DA dog & nearly being bitten myself by several benign looking dogs, I go by the rule that all unknown dogs could be aggressive.

Just like I teach my children & all other kids I know, that they must NEVER pat an unknown dog without first asking the owner.

Edited July 16, 2012 by dee lee

[Dame Aussie]

Maybe the dog didn't like the fact you were shouting out at them? That may have freaked it out?

One of mine is friends with everybody the other doesn't like strangers approaching and will bark. She's fine with people she knows though, both dogs had a similar upbringing.