Breeding The Mongrel

[samoyedman]

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/breeding-the-mongrel-that-makes-top-dog-worth-top-dollar-20120713-221cl.html

Breeding the mongrel that makes top dog worth top dollar

HE DOES more work than any man, without breaking sweat. He sleeps on a lavender bush, accrues no annual leave and asks only for a cup of biscuits and a few sandwich crusts each day.

When a kelpie called Ted fetched $9000 at auction last year, it broke the Australian record and cemented the status of working dogs as a critical plank of the rural workforce.

The pastoral livestock industry faces serious labour shortages as its workers age or move into mining and services. Four in 10 farms in the sector report problems finding staff.

''One of those blokes you sort of look up to'' … in this case, that's the dog. Nigel Kerin with Ted, who he says is worth every cent of the $9000 he cost.

The deficit has driven a tenfold rise in the average price of working dogs at auction over the past 15 years, and prompted a University of Sydney study to determine the most desirable traits and how to breed them to create farm ''super dogs''.

Ted's owner, Nigel Kerin, who runs a sheep stud at Yeoval, said the two-year-old kelpie was worth every cent. The record was smashed again this year when a dog sold for $12,000.

''There is absolutely nothing he can't do by himself. Anything from three-sheep mustering to 3000 in a mob, he can bring them in, draft them, drench them … he's like the Cadel Evans of the kelpie world,'' Mr Kerin said.

''Most blokes wouldn't pay $300 for a dog. People would scratch their head and say, 'How could anyone pay that much?' But if they knew the labour efficiencies we had on this farm, they'd soon work out why.''

Paul McGreevy, the study leader, said it would help sheep and cattle graziers make the best the use of dogs and eventually increase productivity. Researchers will develop a breeding program after identifying DNA sequences associated with traits that make the best farm dogs.

A litter could be swabbed to reveal which puppies had the most promising genes, and findings used to match dog personality types to individual farmers, Professor McGreevy said.

Initial surveys of farmers suggested boldness, optimism, perseverance and mustering behaviour such as eye contact, stalking and caution were among the most prized traits.

Mr Kerin spotted Ted's potential the moment he saw him at auction, and predicts he will produce seven good years of work.

''I knew this dog had the personality, he had that larrikinism, and that absolute mongrel in him to make a good, all-round station dog,'' he said. ''He absolutely loves it, he'd do it 24 hours a day if you let him. His concentration just never breaks.

''He's an exceptional worker with exceptional ability - one of those blokes you sort of look up to."

Edited July 13, 2012 by samoyedman

[Lyss]

If you asked my other halfs pop what his working kelpies are worth he'd say priceless and they are mustering cattle would be impossible with out them.

[Rilla-My-Rilla]

My grandfather had two kelpie crosses, and they were brilliant with the cattle. Monty would have been excellent on a big farm, working everyday.

I don't see why they need to do any DNA testing....farmers have been breeding working dogs for years just simply by looking at their traits and breeding their best dogs, with none of this scientific stuff.

[Sheridan]

Has any of these studies that the University of Sydney has done actually assisted dogs?

[Weasels]

As a geneticist who has worked on canids, I have to say those study aims seem pretty optimistic. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt though since I know how skewed media reporting of science can get.

Sheridan I don't think they've really started yet.

[dancinbcs]

My grandfather had two kelpie crosses, and they were brilliant with the cattle. Monty would have been excellent on a big farm, working everyday.

I don't see why they need to do any DNA testing....farmers have been breeding working dogs for years just simply by looking at their traits and breeding their best dogs, with none of this scientific stuff.

I think Prof Mc Greevey is dreaming if he thinks he can work out what makes a dog work because that all comes down to instinct and especially attitude. Health however is a different matter.

Working Kelpies actually lose quite a few puppies to Ataxia and Dr Alan Wilton who did the genetic research on Border Collies, was working to find a test for them before his untimely death last year. The research was commisioned by the Working Kelpie Council because losing puppies to a fatal genetic condition costs them a lot of money. I don't know if they have moved that research to Sydney Uni where we had to move our BC research and samples, to or not.

[Clyde]

When a kelpie called Ted fetched $9000 at auction last year, it broke the Australian record and cemented the status of working dogs as a critical plank of the rural workforce.

My neighbour has Ted's litter brother. He paid top dollar for him too and he has been repaid already tenfold through working him and saving on manpower. Awesome dog to watch on the move but a great temp too and doubles up beautifully as their family pet.

[Vickie]

1342214547[/url]' post='5897229']

I don't see why they need to do any DNA testing....farmers have been breeding working dogs for years just simply by looking at their traits and breeding their best dogs, with none of this scientific stuff.

agreed, although it would be interesting if it were possible.

Here's one of my favourite articles on the subject. It's about BCs, but would be the same for kelpies

http://stilhope.com/writings/heritability.html

[Jumabaar]

My grandfather had two kelpie crosses, and they were brilliant with the cattle. Monty would have been excellent on a big farm, working everyday.

I don't see why they need to do any DNA testing....farmers have been breeding working dogs for years just simply by looking at their traits and breeding their best dogs, with none of this scientific stuff.

I think Prof Mc Greevey is dreaming if he thinks he can work out what makes a dog work because that all comes down to instinct and especially attitude. Health however is a different matter.

Working Kelpies actually lose quite a few puppies to Ataxia and Dr Alan Wilton who did the genetic research on Border Collies, was working to find a test for them before his untimely death last year. The research was commisioned by the Working Kelpie Council because losing puppies to a fatal genetic condition costs them a lot of money. I don't know if they have moved that research to Sydney Uni where we had to move our BC research and samples, to or not.

It was moved to sydney. A progress paper was given a few months ago.

CA is proving a real pain to actually pin down though .

[persephone]

Our farm bred dogs ... the current patriarch /yard dog is fairly popular, and my bro has been offered $5K for him .

[Sheridan]

As a geneticist who has worked on canids, I have to say those study aims seem pretty optimistic. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt though since I know how skewed media reporting of science can get.

Sheridan I don't think they've really started yet.

I'm not just talking about McGreevy's latest.

[mixeduppup]

Working dogs are worth their weight. I started a nice looking red and tan dog at the end of last year and used him a bit on the station. I bought him for $150 and sold him for 10X that amount 9 months later. Farmers are willing to pay top dollar for a good dog. They work hard and all they ask in return is a bed and food.

[dancinbcs]

My grandfather had two kelpie crosses, and they were brilliant with the cattle. Monty would have been excellent on a big farm, working everyday.

I don't see why they need to do any DNA testing....farmers have been breeding working dogs for years just simply by looking at their traits and breeding their best dogs, with none of this scientific stuff.

I think Prof Mc Greevey is dreaming if he thinks he can work out what makes a dog work because that all comes down to instinct and especially attitude. Health however is a different matter.

Working Kelpies actually lose quite a few puppies to Ataxia and Dr Alan Wilton who did the genetic research on Border Collies, was working to find a test for them before his untimely death last year. The research was commisioned by the Working Kelpie Council because losing puppies to a fatal genetic condition costs them a lot of money. I don't know if they have moved that research to Sydney Uni where we had to move our BC research and samples, to or not.

It was moved to sydney. A progress paper was given a few months ago.

CA is proving a real pain to actually pin down though .

I'm glad Sydney were able to take it on as well as all the BC stuff. We had 20 years of samples that we didn't want to lose so are very thankful to Sydney Uni for taking it all on and starting the TNS/CL testing again for us.

Alan was also working on CA in Borders which has a later onset than Kelpies but the cases are very rare so we didn't get very far. Sadly I forsee a big increase in cases coming in the not too distant future

[Jumabaar]

My grandfather had two kelpie crosses, and they were brilliant with the cattle. Monty would have been excellent on a big farm, working everyday.

I don't see why they need to do any DNA testing....farmers have been breeding working dogs for years just simply by looking at their traits and breeding their best dogs, with none of this scientific stuff.

I think Prof Mc Greevey is dreaming if he thinks he can work out what makes a dog work because that all comes down to instinct and especially attitude. Health however is a different matter.

Working Kelpies actually lose quite a few puppies to Ataxia and Dr Alan Wilton who did the genetic research on Border Collies, was working to find a test for them before his untimely death last year. The research was commisioned by the Working Kelpie Council because losing puppies to a fatal genetic condition costs them a lot of money. I don't know if they have moved that research to Sydney Uni where we had to move our BC research and samples, to or not.

It was moved to sydney. A progress paper was given a few months ago.

CA is proving a real pain to actually pin down though .

I'm glad Sydney were able to take it on as well as all the BC stuff. We had 20 years of samples that we didn't want to lose so are very thankful to Sydney Uni for taking it all on and starting the TNS/CL testing again for us.

Alan was also working on CA in Borders which has a later onset than Kelpies but the cases are very rare so we didn't get very far. Sadly I forsee a big increase in cases coming in the not too distant future

I think we are lucky that the current Dean of Veterinary Science at USYD is interested in inherited neurological disease!! And was already involved in the CA research. (And has a soft spot for Kelpies as she was involved in the research for Krabbes disease that has resulted in a genetic test).

I do think that there are more problems popping up in Kelpies (working and show line). There are dogs in Europe with sever heart disease showing up at 3yrs of age and Epilepsy is also turning up more commonly. The heart disease is scary as vets were not picking up any murmurs and it is only showing up on ultrasound and dogs were still competing in dog sports without any symptoms- so it appears to be very insidious.

I love Kelpies but gees I am a little worried. ANYTHING at this point that gets them into the sight of researchers and the general public so we can get funding for our health issues is a positive, regardless of what this behaviour research shows up. Actually if Mcgreevy does find some relationship with working traits then I will be happy as there will be a greater push to keep the breed healthy for further behaviour research.

Sheridan plenty of useful research has been done at the University of Sydney, alone and in conjunction with other institutions.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Jumabaar

[mjk05]

The main problem I see with this project (as it has been reported) is the difficulty in defining the traits "that make a good farm dog". What each individual farmer/stockperson/trainer actually wants in a dog can vary widely depending on their operation/preferred methods of stockwork/training methods/etc etc etc. Some people mainly use their dogs in yards, others in paddocks, some people like dogs that bark or don't head so they can drive with them easily or they prefer strong heading dogs that can be trained to come off the head.

If you look just at sheepdog triallers, where the work itself is relatively standardised, there's a range of preferences in style as well as temperament, and some successful handlers have dogs that others wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

So while it might be interesting to be able to better understand the inheritance of heading or eye or square break and even to test for it, I don't see that it will help identify what makes a "good farm dog"- that will still be about breeders and handlers understanding and matching expectations.

If this is supposed to be about animal welfare and/or increasing cost effectiveness of working dogs, then I think that funding could be better spent on research and education on health issues (including genetic disease) as well as education on using/training work dogs, like the courses the UK Ag Dept used to run.

I've also heard that none of the researchers have any significant background in training or working sheepdogs. If this is true, it's disappointing. I just don't know how you could begin to look into this area without lots of experience working dogs. I wonder if they've had input from people like Don Robertson who have already put years of practical work into understanding inheritance of working traits.

[dancinbcs]

My grandfather had two kelpie crosses, and they were brilliant with the cattle. Monty would have been excellent on a big farm, working everyday.

I don't see why they need to do any DNA testing....farmers have been breeding working dogs for years just simply by looking at their traits and breeding their best dogs, with none of this scientific stuff.

I think Prof Mc Greevey is dreaming if he thinks he can work out what makes a dog work because that all comes down to instinct and especially attitude. Health however is a different matter.

Working Kelpies actually lose quite a few puppies to Ataxia and Dr Alan Wilton who did the genetic research on Border Collies, was working to find a test for them before his untimely death last year. The research was commisioned by the Working Kelpie Council because losing puppies to a fatal genetic condition costs them a lot of money. I don't know if they have moved that research to Sydney Uni where we had to move our BC research and samples, to or not.

It was moved to sydney. A progress paper was given a few months ago.

CA is proving a real pain to actually pin down though .

I'm glad Sydney were able to take it on as well as all the BC stuff. We had 20 years of samples that we didn't want to lose so are very thankful to Sydney Uni for taking it all on and starting the TNS/CL testing again for us.

Alan was also working on CA in Borders which has a later onset than Kelpies but the cases are very rare so we didn't get very far. Sadly I forsee a big increase in cases coming in the not too distant future

I think we are lucky that the current Dean of Veterinary Science at USYD is interested in inherited neurological disease!! And was already involved in the CA research. (And has a soft spot for Kelpies as she was involved in the research for Krabbes disease that has resulted in a genetic test).

I do think that there are more problems popping up in Kelpies (working and show line). There are dogs in Europe with sever heart disease showing up at 3yrs of age and Epilepsy is also turning up more commonly. The heart disease is scary as vets were not picking up any murmurs and it is only showing up on ultrasound and dogs were still competing in dog sports without any symptoms- so it appears to be very insidious.

I love Kelpies but gees I am a little worried. ANYTHING at this point that gets them into the sight of researchers and the general public so we can get funding for our health issues is a positive, regardless of what this behaviour research shows up. Actually if Mcgreevy does find some relationship with working traits then I will be happy as there will be a greater push to keep the breed healthy for further behaviour research.

Sheridan plenty of useful research has been done at the University of Sydney, alone and in conjunction with other institutions.

The heart problems sound very scary but epilepsy has definitely been in the breed a long time. I knew someone who got out of Kelpies 20 years ago because of it and she had been in the breed a long time. Of course we don't know how it is inherited and it is likely to be polygenetic as it seems to be in Borders, according to the researchers currently studying it in Europe.

Funding wise for CA, ask the Dean of Vet Science about grants that may be available. We (the BCC of NSW Hereditary Diseases sub-committee) got a huge one for CL in Borders partly because they are part of the rural economy and partly because the research would also help with research into the condition in humans. It took months and many, many hours of re-writing the submission at meetings that went half the night but got the grant of $93000 over 3 years provided we raised $5000 a year to go with it. That was about 12 years or so ago and we would never have got the test without that money.

We are hoping you get your CA test and then ours should be easier to find. There is a better chance with the Klepies because you have more data to study.

mjk05, great post too.

Edited July 14, 2012 by dancinbcs

[J...]

The main problem I see with this project (as it has been reported) is the difficulty in defining the traits "that make a good farm dog". What each individual farmer/stockperson/trainer actually wants in a dog can vary widely depending on their operation/preferred methods of stockwork/training methods/etc etc etc. Some people mainly use their dogs in yards, others in paddocks, some people like dogs that bark or don't head so they can drive with them easily or they prefer strong heading dogs that can be trained to come off the head.

If you look just at sheepdog triallers, where the work itself is relatively standardised, there's a range of preferences in style as well as temperament, and some successful handlers have dogs that others wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

So while it might be interesting to be able to better understand the inheritance of heading or eye or square break and even to test for it, I don't see that it will help identify what makes a "good farm dog"- that will still be about breeders and handlers understanding and matching expectations.

If this is supposed to be about animal welfare and/or increasing cost effectiveness of working dogs, then I think that funding could be better spent on research and education on health issues (including genetic disease) as well as education on using/training work dogs, like the courses the UK Ag Dept used to run.

I've also heard that none of the researchers have any significant background in training or working sheepdogs. If this is true, it's disappointing. I just don't know how you could begin to look into this area without lots of experience working dogs. I wonder if they've had input from people like Don Robertson who have already put years of practical work into understanding inheritance of working traits.

Well said.

The other part of this issue is how many potentially really good dogs don't make the grade as a "good farm dog" due to the poor training ability of the owner?

[Rilla-My-Rilla]

My grandfather had two kelpie crosses, and they were brilliant with the cattle. Monty would have been excellent on a big farm, working everyday.

I don't see why they need to do any DNA testing....farmers have been breeding working dogs for years just simply by looking at their traits and breeding their best dogs, with none of this scientific stuff.

I think Prof Mc Greevey is dreaming if he thinks he can work out what makes a dog work because that all comes down to instinct and especially attitude. Health however is a different matter.

Working Kelpies actually lose quite a few puppies to Ataxia and Dr Alan Wilton who did the genetic research on Border Collies, was working to find a test for them before his untimely death last year. The research was commisioned by the Working Kelpie Council because losing puppies to a fatal genetic condition costs them a lot of money. I don't know if they have moved that research to Sydney Uni where we had to move our BC research and samples, to or not.

I agree that DNA testing needs to be carried out for health. I am about to get my first BC, and after following the Sick Border Collie Pup thread, I am so grateful that DNA tests are available.

DNA testing for dogs working traits, is something I see as unnecessary. As others have already said, what makes a good working dog depends on the job they need to do and the handler.

[asal]

The main problem I see with this project (as it has been reported) is the difficulty in defining the traits "that make a good farm dog". What each individual farmer/stockperson/trainer actually wants in a dog can vary widely depending on their operation/preferred methods of stockwork/training methods/etc etc etc. Some people mainly use their dogs in yards, others in paddocks, some people like dogs that bark or don't head so they can drive with them easily or they prefer strong heading dogs that can be trained to come off the head.

If you look just at sheepdog triallers, where the work itself is relatively standardised, there's a range of preferences in style as well as temperament, and some successful handlers have dogs that others wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

So while it might be interesting to be able to better understand the inheritance of heading or eye or square break and even to test for it, I don't see that it will help identify what makes a "good farm dog"- that will still be about breeders and handlers understanding and matching expectations.

If this is supposed to be about animal welfare and/or increasing cost effectiveness of working dogs, then I think that funding could be better spent on research and education on health issues (including genetic disease) as well as education on using/training work dogs, like the courses the UK Ag Dept used to run.

I've also heard that none of the researchers have any significant background in training or working sheepdogs. If this is true, it's disappointing. I just don't know how you could begin to look into this area without lots of experience working dogs. I wonder if they've had input from people like Don Robertson who have already put years of practical work into understanding inheritance of working traits.

wonderhow they expect a dna test to show them the best multitaskers?

my friend has had kelpies for over 80 years, descended from his dads dogs, he had a injoured filly and sent the dog to bring her in to have the wound dressed. except he had put her in a sepearte paddock the previous day. she was down in the far corner beside the mob on the other side. she flatley refused to leave her mates. the dog looked to les for advice. les was rolling laughing so no help to the dog. he gave his owner a disgusted look, jumped the fence shifted the entire mob along the fence to the yards with the filly following on her side of the fence. soon as she as at the yard he jumped back stood in the gate way and barked back at les as if to demand,,,NOW get your sorry butt over and shut this gate.

now thats initiative, how do u test for that?

[Salukifan]

A 'mongrel' is a randomly bred dog.

There is nothing random about breeding good working dogs. It involves careful selection, knowledge of pedigree and line breeding to establish type.

That's precisely the process that gave us dog breeds in the first place.

I'd say there's a snowballs chance in hell of identifying the genes that make a good working dog. And that's because genes don't account for environment and training.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Haredown Whippets