Recalling Adolescent Dog Away From Other Dogs

[huski]

The above method may work for dogs like BCs but try it on my beagle and you'd get the doggy equivalent of the rude finger :laugh:

Actually, I also have a beagle and she gets the same treatment. The paying her for checking in is what made the biggest diference with her - it made her aware of what we were doing. She was hard work but she was my husbands dog before we were together and had already learnt bad habits that had to be undone. I probably do reward her more frequently than the borders but still not every time.

That's interesting Piper. Is her recall what you'd consider to be 100% reliable?

[BC Crazy]

I did have a recall problem with Sonny, my male BC when he was around 6 months of age. Not so much that he was too interested in other dogs to come back to me, he just didn't want the fun to stop. He would recall back to me

but stay about 4 feet away, just out of my reach Spoke to Sonny's breeder, she's wonderful, wealth of info. The solution was make sure you have a very hungry dog, & lots of his favourite treats only let him of

lead in quiet areas, no other distractions, let him get a short distance away & recall. When he comes to you, he sits, you hold his collar for 10 sec's, then praise & release. Don't put the lead on him. His reward for coming is

more fun. Repeat this. I was doing that about 40 times each outing. If you want to put his lead on to go, you go to your dog. Don't call him to put his lead on. Sonny never really goes any more than 20 feet away from me now when

off lead, ever, no matter what is going on around us. I taught Sonny to stop when I want to put his lead on. He reads me very well though so he is where I want him to be most of the time. I rarely have to call him these days.

Usually if I step backwards I would tread on him :laugh: Good luck. Hope I was of some help :)

Just one other thing you have to make yourself the most fun, so your pup wants to be with you. I always had a toy or whatever makes him tick & play with him, then release him, call back e.t.c Sorry I haven't read all your replies

so if this method has already been mentioned please disregard.

Edited July 14, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Vickie]

ETA: If she ignored a recall command or any command really I wouldn't keep calling her, I'd grab her by the collar and put her away or similar. But she still knows that 'here' is a word that guarantees drive satisfaction when she obeys it as fast as she can.

Oh, we'll that sounds like exactly what I do then. Except that rather than putting mine away, after i take the collar, I let go & try again as I want them to choose to make the right choice there & then.

[doglifetraining]

...I've also have an adolescent dog (adopted at 10months), a black lab who had no recall whatsoever when I first got him, now, 8 months on he is a champ, but still lots of hard work on a walk. When people comment on how good he is I say he is still a work in progress because we still work on his recall every day...

With Nemo, when did you make the next step to making him 'come' when he was with other dogs? I have a similar issue with Archie and I don't want to go up to this step too early because he already ignores me enough when he is with other dogs. But like Nemo, he will come away from scent distractions, etc. Just not the dog.

Great question! There were two ways I trained this....

1. Through Shaping the 'check in' behaviour: I would often reinforce Nemo for just offering a look at me (when around other dogs) and I found over time he would say hello to a dog, then look straight back at me for reinforcement. Because of this he now also starts to play with a dog, then stops and checks in with me until I give him a release to go back and play again. This check in behaviour is perfect for a dog like Nemo who could get carried away chasing or pestering another dog to play, now he says hello and plays politely and respectfully.

I complimented step one with step two.......

2. Through recalling around other dogs: I would only let Nemo off lead around other dogs who were not scared of him, every time I found a dog like this I would let him off lead, walk with the other owner and dog and practice my recalls during these walks. Nemo was much more open to the recall after he had been around a dog for a little while. I never stood around in one place with him allowing a free for all play session. Nemo has now had so much time around other dogs off lead that now when he sees another dog he is not busting out of his skin to say hello. I can heel him up to another dog and his reward for good heeling is a release to go and say hello, food is not needed nearly as much.

During these training times I only called Nemo when i knew he would come to me, this success has started to condition him to respond to 'Nemo' and 'come', almost like a reflex. Our walks are not relaxing yet, I have to be ever vigilant but I see improvement every day. I'm also not expecting perfection, Nemo's success rate probably sits somewhere around 90% with his recalls. You will need to find Archie's favourite currency also, Nemo wasn't interested in food, when he came to me he was fat, he's dropped weight since and the food became a priority for him. I use food raw beef pieces to reinforce Nemo.

Starting to train the recall at adolescence can be very hard work, but it sounds like you have a good base to start from and I'm sure with some well timed reinforcement you will be able to also shape Archie's check in and recall. All the best, and please feel free to PM me if you have more questions.

[huski]

ETA: If she ignored a recall command or any command really I wouldn't keep calling her, I'd grab her by the collar and put her away or similar. But she still knows that 'here' is a word that guarantees drive satisfaction when she obeys it as fast as she can.

Oh, we'll that sounds like exactly what I do then. Except that rather than putting mine away, after i take the collar, I let go & try again as I want them to choose to make the right choice there & then.

I don't think there is a big different aside from I always reward recall in drive, it's a trained drive command so I don't phase out food rewards.

ETA: Even if I 'end the game' i.e. put D away, I will take her out again and let her try again.

Edited July 14, 2012 by huski

[doglifetraining]

DLT thanks very much for loading the video and your article on the development of recalls. I found both very helpful. Your issues with Nemo sound almost exactly like Pasha's issues - friendly willing dog, bit on the boisterous side at times, recall in development. You even have the same leather lead we do by the looks of things!(Nemo is a lovely dog by the way - I love black dogs and he has a very sweet face)

From reading your article, I think I could best describe Pasha's current level as:

- Set up recalls - he is very reliable

- calling away from minor distractions - he is very reliable

- recall from play - is what we're working on now

- recall while running away - actually he generally does this and I've had lots of lovely u-shaped recalls (if you know what I mean) at the park, but not if he's running towards another dog

Your video is fantastic. I think the thing that struck me most is the time spent and the various stages he goes through during the video. At the start he looks very much like Pasha currently does when I have him at the park each morning. Very alert, keen to get into it. Then he relaxes more and I note you still have him on lead for much of this time while he meets other dogs. Then he is getting tired, and is more reliable and calm and at that point you've allowed him off lead with suitable dogs.

Our morning jaunt at the park is 30 minutes or thereabouts, so he doesn't get really tired until just towards the end, and he is rarely exhausted even then. Our evening walk is a similar length - we walk around the streets on lead, with a small off-lead bit at a local oval along the way. Rarely any other dogs around at that time.

But our weekends walks are longer, so perhaps that's when I will (when he's ready, calm and in the right circumstances) start practising with him a bit off lead.

No problem, thanks for the feedback and taking the time to visit the blog. You have got a lot of great advice here, I especially like the long line training, very useful to gain control when a dog has no recall. I have a long tracking line (about 15m) that I use with some dogs who have a poor recall. I didnt use it with Nemo as i have access to a great fenced park where I can see every dog before they enter the area. I also use raw, fresh beef when training Nemo. I had a roast chicken for dinner last night and may take a few bits of that out with me today for extra recall fire power

I love my leather lead, I got it from a site called fordogtrainers.com Nemo is a seeing eye stud dog and this lead is so good because I can make it really short when he is 'working' and long for our leisurely walks. He does have a sweet face, when i take him out in his 'working jacket' people love him. However, because of his big head many people think he is some sort of bull breed and this was another reason I had to have a good recall, he does look scary.

Good luck with Pasha (I love that name) and just keep going

Edited July 14, 2012 by doglifetraining.com

[piper]

That's interesting Piper. Is her recall what you'd consider to be 100% reliable?

No but then I would also say the beagle and I clash so I havent proofed her or tested it anywhere near enough.

When hubby and I got together Jessi had learnt to RUN - head down and bolt at every opportunity. They thought having a beagle that she couldn't be trusted off lead or trained so if she ever got off or out they would panic and chase. She was also not very well socialised. When we lived on acreage and I had her out daily (initially on a long line and then later the long line dragging) in a wide open space she quickly got over that and at that point I would say I got her to 100% reliable on the property with the distractions that occurred there.

As we dont exactly get along though I have not proofed her to to distractions as much as I should have and as an old arthritic 10 year old now she doesn't go far anyway. Having said that, she has never run away from me but I do scan the environment and as Vickie said there is that moment where they are thinking and if I see something ahead I call her before I see her react and she is fine. More management than good recall in that regards. I havent ever let her get to a point where I couldn't call her. She does scent but not to a point that I cant call her, and that is where the paying checking in I think helped - she starts to scent but will head check with me frequently at which time I can give her a call. She probably also takes cues off of the borders who frequently run back to me and dont tend to go far. The joy of competition - usually if 1 checks all the way in all 3 do :)

[Staffyluv]

My standard poodle puppy is an adolescent - 8 months old. He is a wonderful puppy, but of course very energetic which is absolutely normal for a healthy pup of his breed. He was desexed a few weeks ago, and is now completely healed.

When we're at the park, he loves to run around off-lead. We have a fantastic fenced park nearby and he loves it. He recalls beautifully most of the time, loves to fetch etc. and is enjoying his training. Very smart. Typical poodle.

But as soon as someone arrives with another dog he gets over-excited, and his recall becomes non-existent. He is friendly with other dogs, but can be over-friendly and a bit on the boisterous side. Sometimes you can tell the other dog has stopped enjoying all the play, and is trying to get away from him. He's not aggressive at all, but he's not sensitive to their lost interest either and can be a pest.

I know this is not unusual at his age, but I also know I need to tackle it. He loves being off lead, but I need him to recall to me reliably when other dogs are around.

I have a really good 10m long lead, and that works pretty well but when other dogs are around sometimes they get their legs tangled in it and I have become a bit worried about the possibility of an injury either to my dog or to the other dog if they get their legs tangled in the line and run around. It has already come close a few times and it has made me nervous about using the line with other dogs around. Perhaps I need a shorter one? 5m perhaps?

So I need your ideas please! I'm on a mission to tackle this problem. He's a good boy, typical happy puppy who loves playing with other dogs, and I don't want him to miss out just because I didn't get his early training right. My old girl Zamba has been dog aggressive since her early years and has always had to stay on lead. I don't want that for this boy. It's such a shame to miss all the fun.

This is exactly the issue I was having with Ziggy..

My trainer said he not allowed off lead around other dogs until his recall is as perfect as possible.

She told me that I might think he is being over friendly but in fact he is being a bully but not giving the other dog the space he should be..

All good and well until he meets a dog that takes proper of fence and the othe dog has a go at him. Lucky for us we sought help before this ever happened.

He is so much better but still has a way to go.

He is on long line when with other dogs, until he is recalling perfectly... To many things can go bad at dog parks...

We practice by me calling him and rewarding him when he comes every time. I find the excited recall voice or an excited les go work better than just trying to call him.

Practice, practice and more practice...

[huski]

We had a beagle (my sister's dog) as teenagers. I agree huski their motivation to be at your side needs much more work than the more traditional working breeds. She was nose-motivated, primarily. Whereas the kelpie I had back then was always running up and back to me and her recall was rock-solid with very little work. It just seemed natural for her. She was off lead almost all the time.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. This is exactly what I needed.

Vickie I don't think your post is harsh at all. I think you are spot on actually. That was my thinking with the long line, but I had started to worry about using it. But I think I need to get over that, and just use it carefully. He has been exercising his choice, and choosing the wrong things, so he's obviously not yet ready for free play in these circumstances. He can still continue his socialising on lead. It also makes it possible for me to grab him when he doesn't respond, as others have suggested. As opposed to having to catch him, which has started to happen and is not good.

We practised these things at the beach this morning, in the wild windy weather. He stayed on the long line, and was very cooperative. There was one time he ignored my call, and we reeled him in, no reward. He enjoyed shaved ham each time he recalled to me from another dog, then release. Piece of Schmacko when he checks in, as always.

I have rewarded him for checking in since he was very young. He generally stays very focused on me, but other dogs had started to trump me of late, which is why I posted this thread. But without other dogs in the picture he's very reliable. I am yet to try recalling him from a live frisbee, but will do that during the week and see how he goes. And my slippers - something he has developed an unfortunate attraction to of late !!

I haven't watched the vids yet but will do that now. Very much appreciated!

Personally, I wouldn't allow play with other dogs at all until at least his recall is reliable. It seems counter intuitive to me to let a dog who is highly distracted by other dogs and can't recall away from them reliably to play with them at all, because every time you do so you are allowing him to be reinforced that other dogs are rewarding. It won't make your dog unfriendly to stop play with other dogs at least until his value for you exceeds his value for other dogs. He already has a positive value for them.

When his recall is really reliable under minimal distraction try introducing different levels of and types of distractions to see how he responds and to give you a chance to reinforce that even if something looks fun and exciting, it's not going to be as fun and exciting as you. Here's another video to give you an example of what I mean :)

Edited July 14, 2012 by huski

[huski]

That's interesting Piper. Is her recall what you'd consider to be 100% reliable?

No but then I would also say the beagle and I clash so I havent proofed her or tested it anywhere near enough.

I know what you mean about clashing :laugh:

Would be interesting to see how she goes with her recall if you get the chance to put more work into her.

[piper]

I know what you mean about clashing :laugh:

Would be interesting to see how she goes with her recall if you get the chance to put more work into her.

At 10 years of age and arthritic, I highly doubt I will push it more. LOL.

I am a slack trainer and tend to do just what I need to - I got her to a level she could enjoy good walks at my favourite off lead places and to a level I could manage her to prevent it being an issue. The closest I can think to a time I would have had an issue (and I also will not bother calling if it is beyond what I consider the level of training is as it only weakens the cue if they dont respond) was when she saw some people the other side of a river we were walking along side. She gave some excited whines at the river bank (and fortunately doesn't swim like a border collie!) and I just kept walking and gave our change of direction cue "this way" and she head checked and continued along the path with us. Would she have come? Maybe, she did head check when I said something and acknowledged it and responded appropriately....

I think the clashing comes from I have grown up with working breeds. My parents bred shelties so as a kid that is what we had and then we got Border Collies. I am used to dogs that just instinctively want to do things with you. Jessi reminds me of a cat and I am not a cat person! The work I did do with her was for her own safety - a dog that sees an open door, gate, car door and basically closes it's eyes and bolts is not at all safe so I changed that. She has lovely doorway manners now - probably better than the borders as if they get out they just stand there looking at me - and has a recall of an acceptable level for me. And given how non existant it was and how much running off had been built up it is probably better than I ever expected to get it. She is a smart little thing but you definitely have to want to work with her for her to want to work with you.

[dasha]

I think in this case, being a poodle, excuses of why some breed are harder than others isn't really helpful.

Poodles are highly intelligent, and providing it has 2 ears that work, and a trainer that is consistant, then it doesn't really matter whether a beagle or border collie is easier. Beagle have a scenting instinct, BC have a working instinct, they don;t have a willingness to walk next to you with a paddock full of sheep unless you train it. And a beagle is no good to anyone if you can't train it to ignore scents until you ask. It goes for any breed that has an instinctive working function. Its about command over instinct EVERY TIME.

So as a poodle is very smart and he is young and exuberant, it would be best as some have suggested, to remove him from the highly distracting surroundings untill he understands the command. Then you may progress to asking for it with 1 uninteresting dog around and gradually increase his reward history on the recall with small distractions then increase it to bigger ones.

The most important thing is that if the command is said, the behaviour MUST follow every time. This is either willingly or not. The dog needs to learn that when that word is said, the only predictable thing is that he is going to do it.Lie Vickie said, sometimes you have to invest a lot of time and effort into something that its really hard or if they try it on a couple of times.

You need to set him up to PASS in order to make the behaviour predictable. Then increase the difficulty.

You may need a long lead on him to be able to make the behaviour happen once he gets more room around him. Don't be at this level too long or he will get lead wise and know EXACTLY how far he can go on the lead and then once the lead is off, he may work out the distance that he can then make a runner. Remember Poodles are smart.

EVERY time he comes back you need to reward him with something he loves, it may be a toy, or food. Whatever HE values most at this stage. You could even try feeding him his entire food intake from your hands for doing something. If at the end of the day there is still a bit more left, do a recall and give him the remainder of it. Practice in different areas of the house. Don't just feed in the kitchen or wherever. Make him think that wherever you are and you call him, there is something special for him.

Once he is coming every time, then you start to reduce the rewards but still need to make a fuss of him.

Remember not to make the recall at the park be the end of his play time or he soon won't recall. Call him and reward him then release him again to go play.

He should be a pleasure to train being a very smart breed.

[Kavik]

I agree with the others - I would not allow free play with other dogs until you get the recall issue under control.

Last year I did SG's online Recaller's course - one of the best investments I have made While Kaos's recall was not a major issue, the course had SO many great relationship building games as well as recall specific games and self control games. LOTS of fun and I still practice some of the games today because they are so much fun!

Another one is putting visiting (people or dogs) on cue. I need to be more diligent about this - I think it is a great idea (mine loves to visit people).

[huski]

Dasha, I wasnt saying one is harder or easier. I was just saying different dogs can require a different approach.

[Zug Zug]

Thanks everyone

Dasha thanks for that. Yes he is a pleasure to train and very smart. I was looking for some ideas to get this issue back on track. Have applied a number of these suggestions since my first post, and he is responding enthusiastically. Have also decided that his morning play sessions with other dogs can go on hold for a bit while we work on this a bit more. I don't want him practising the wrong behaviour.

Took him to the park with my older dog the other evening. No other dogs around at all, which is critical because she struggles with fear aggression so i need to be careful. But in this case safely fenced, and just the two of them so all goid.

Both derfect - as soon as I called they literally raced each other to get to me first. Inevitably she beats him, but her quick moves have certainly motivated him to hop to it! That was a suggestion from here, and has worked a treat.

Thanks everyone! I needed some fresh ideas and I really appreciate your help!

[dasha]

Also very important..... don't try each suggestion at once.

Pick one you like and stick with it for a number of weeks before you change something. Consistency is the key. Don't try one persons suggestion today and another tomorrow. If you do you will be posting on here in 6 months asking how to train a recall in an adult poodle that has a lot of history of getting his way.

In training, only change one element at a time.

So for example you have been practising a recall in the park with a long lead on but only when there is just you and your other dog, don't take the long lead off when there are heaps of exciting distractions. Aim for distance or distraction only. 1 at a time. Then work on the other, then both together.

[Zug Zug]

Fair point. They were both off lead the other night in the session i described above. But yes 1 new thing at a time - same way we approach stays. Makes sense.

The off lead session was something I could do with my own dogs, but not yet with other dogs. I was picking up on the suggestion to work with him along with a dog that recalls well. That's how he learnt to fetch too - by watching her do it.

I am keeping him on the long line when there is a possibility of another dog joining us. Which is most of the time when we are out and about. And rewarding with metwurst.

He's responding well - I will just keep doing this for a while.