Recalling Adolescent Dog Away From Other Dogs

[Zug Zug]

My standard poodle puppy is an adolescent - 8 months old. He is a wonderful puppy, but of course very energetic which is absolutely normal for a healthy pup of his breed. He was desexed a few weeks ago, and is now completely healed.

When we're at the park, he loves to run around off-lead. We have a fantastic fenced park nearby and he loves it. He recalls beautifully most of the time, loves to fetch etc. and is enjoying his training. Very smart. Typical poodle.

But as soon as someone arrives with another dog he gets over-excited, and his recall becomes non-existent. He is friendly with other dogs, but can be over-friendly and a bit on the boisterous side. Sometimes you can tell the other dog has stopped enjoying all the play, and is trying to get away from him. He's not aggressive at all, but he's not sensitive to their lost interest either and can be a pest.

I know this is not unusual at his age, but I also know I need to tackle it. He loves being off lead, but I need him to recall to me reliably when other dogs are around.

I have a really good 10m long lead, and that works pretty well but when other dogs are around sometimes they get their legs tangled in it and I have become a bit worried about the possibility of an injury either to my dog or to the other dog if they get their legs tangled in the line and run around. It has already come close a few times and it has made me nervous about using the line with other dogs around. Perhaps I need a shorter one? 5m perhaps?

So I need your ideas please! I'm on a mission to tackle this problem. He's a good boy, typical happy puppy who loves playing with other dogs, and I don't want him to miss out just because I didn't get his early training right. My old girl Zamba has been dog aggressive since her early years and has always had to stay on lead. I don't want that for this boy. It's such a shame to miss all the fun.

[piper]

I would continue to use the long line and as soon as you see another dog coming, call him to you and give a huge jackpot reward. Don't allow him to get the lead tangled around him and the other dog - you are calling too late if he is already there. Once you recall him, ask the other owner for permission to approach and allow him to initially interact with you in control and not giving him 10m of lead. Call him away, jackpot and then allow him to approach again. As he will be on a shorter lead at this stage you may find you need to guide with the collar or put a treat right in front of him and lure him away initially when you call. Repeat this quite a few times with each dog that is suitable. ou may need to set this up with friends and dogs from training so that you have some other owners with a clue as to what they are doing and can support you (ideally they should be calling their dog away at the same time as well so it doesn't follow your dog and pester)

It is important that he doesn't see you as ending his fun but more that if he comes to you there is a good chance he will get something REALLY good and then get to go back to what he was doing. All too often people call the dog away and then dont let them approach again so coming actually becomes a punishment for the dog as they really would rather be playing. I have found it doesn't usually take long for them to learn that you calling doesn't equal an end to the game once they learn that they will get to go back to what they were doing most times if they come to you. And coming to you under those circumstances should be when the best, highest value rewards come out.

Others will probably have other suggestions but that is basically how I used to introduce recalls back in puppy preschool classes when I instructed them. And I don't know if I have explained it overly well. Hopefully you get what I mean :)

[Zug Zug]

Thank you piper - that is a very clear description and much appreciated.

I can certainly do that. And yes you're right I made just that mistake with him this morning - called him over, then when he finally let me grab him I took him away from all the fun. Such an obvious mistake!

I will go out and buy some metwurst before tomorrow morning's walk I think.

I have a friend with a lovely German Shepherd puppy and she is struggling a bit with the same issue (her pup is slightly older, not much). The two dogs get along well and both have had good basic training. She would be a good dog to have him practise with. Great idea - thanks!

[ness]

The other thing that might help is either finding a playmate who has a 100% reliable recall or a 100% stop (or even a dog who isn't really interested in joining in the game). That way you can set up the scenario so that the fun stops until he has recalled and you have rewarded and released him to play again. Controlled scenarios always work better in the learning stages. Or alternatively work on it with things you can control? i.e. if he likes to retrieve can you throw a toy and have him recall off the toy or things like that which you can set up and work through.

Edited July 13, 2012 by ness

[Zug Zug]

Recalling off a toy during a game of fetch is a fantastic idea. He loves to fetch things, but these are less overwhelming distractions for him than the presence of another dog. I will definitely give that a go during the week. I'll start with a static frisbee on the ground, and build from there. I think that will give us a few really good games to play.

I know a few dogs with great recalls. Something to work up to definitely.

[ness]

Treats on the ground in a container might be another one to work through if he is foodie.

Maybe even sit down and create a list of possible distractions and rate them then work through them systematically.

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/Lesson6.html

Edited July 13, 2012 by ness

[piper]

I just assumed when you said he likes to fetch and recalls well etc that you had probably practiced recalls off of toys etc. Goes to show 1 should never assume :)

Yes definitely start with lower level distractions and build up to the higher level distractions. Same as you would with training anything else.

[doglifetraining]

Hi Zug Zug,

I've also have an adolescent dog (adopted at 10months), a black lab who had no recall whatsoever when I first got him, now, 8 months on he is a champ, but still lots of hard work on a walk. When people comment on how good he is I say he is still a work in progress because we still work on his recall every day.

Anyway, i've made a video as part of my blog on how I began shaping the recall (when he first came to me), please have a look, I hope you find some things you can use.....

Recall in Action with Nemo

It also prompted me to write an article on the development of the recall, after all it's one thing to call your dog at home and a completely different thing to call them back as they are running away from you.....

The Development of the Recall

All the best with your training, Poodles are so smart.

[temperamentfirst]

We have a game that we play with every youngster.

My OH stands maybe 10 metres away, and we take turns recalling and treating. It gets the pup fixed on where we are at any time. We gradually stand further apart.

It even worked on my parents spaniel who is not what you'd call recall focused:-)

the other thing we do is call and then run away from the dog. They can't help chasing us.

[dasha]

I think try all the things suggested.

For what its worth though my opinion is that initially to train the behaviour you have to set it up to happen so he can get the reward... like what has been suggested.

I also believe that there is a point at which the dog MUST come because you said so, not because it wants a treat. Some dogs get smart and think the game is better than the food, or whatever they are chasing is more fun etc.

This is what I do and some may or may not agree but.........

Once I know the dog knows what the recall command is, if he ever choses to ignore it, I will march over there and do what I need to do to get his attention in a very firm manner and make him come to me. SOmetimes you have to block his access to whatever it is he wants. Do whatever I have to to make my dog disengage from what he wanted to do to what I asked.

I NEED a recall on my dogs as does anyone else. You can enjoy your walks a lot more knowing you can recall in any situation.

Mine are working border collies with very strong working instinct. They are not much older than your dog. Tonight I had 5 of them running in the paddock and I was doing something else. I heard a lot of running and went out to see what was going on and the sheep has escaped from their yard and the dogs were bringing them back in all directions. I was able to recall all of them off (Which I was very happy with) and considering there was a lot of commotion and they were as a pack, it was very good of them.

My dogs do not get food treats for a recall once they know it, I do ocassionally give them as a surprise , but not as a rule. They need to come because they were told.

Sounds harsh but it really could save their life one day.

[piper]

Dasha, I do similar. Once they ignore at a level of distraction I know they can recall from I will also go over and take them by the collar and remove them for a short period. Almost like a short time out, they are not told. Off but not rewarded in this instance.

As for rewarding once they know - it becomes very random, sometimes I reward, most times I don't.

Another thing that might help Zug Zug is to pay your pup for checking in - all of mine as youngsters are rewarded anytime they choose to come and check I with me. Nothing huge or over the top but it encourages them to pay attention to me and be aware of where I am and what I am doing. Like the recalls as adults I will still randomly reward it but most times I don't. Ad to be honest they don't usually come right back to me as adults to check in but I will see them frequently check where I am in relation to them.

[huski]

I always reward for recall, I wouldn't work for free so why should my dogs? On the occasion I had to recall in an emergency when I didn't have any food my dog still came because she doesn't need to see or know I have food to be able to recall.

The above method may work for dogs like BCs but try it on my beagle and you'd get the doggy equivalent of the rude finger :laugh:

Zug Zug, if he ignores your recall word now I'd pick a new word and start conditioning it again. You don't want a dog to learn recall is optional or they can ignore your first command. I train recall to be 'come immediately the second I first say the word' and not the second or third time or eventually. Start with a lower of level of distraction and don't move on until his recall is 100% in each environment. Use the long line. Use high value treats. I would also suggest that his value for other dogs is too high so some general training to increase his value for you would be a good starting point :)

[Naomi]

...I've also have an adolescent dog (adopted at 10months), a black lab who had no recall whatsoever when I first got him, now, 8 months on he is a champ, but still lots of hard work on a walk. When people comment on how good he is I say he is still a work in progress because we still work on his recall every day...

With Nemo, when did you make the next step to making him 'come' when he was with other dogs? I have a similar issue with Archie and I don't want to go up to this step too early because he already ignores me enough when he is with other dogs. But like Nemo, he will come away from scent distractions, etc. Just not the dog.

[huski]

I do think not recalling from other dogs is part of a bigger problem which is the dog values other dogs more than you and finds them more rewarding.

[Vickie]

So I need your ideas please! I'm on a mission to tackle this problem. He's a good boy, typical happy puppy who loves playing with other dogs, and I don't want him to miss out just because I didn't get his early training right. My old girl Zamba has been dog aggressive since her early years and has always had to stay on lead. I don't want that for this boy. It's such a shame to miss all the fun.

This may sound harsh, but I really think that, at this point, you need to decide whether it's more important for him to have fun with other dogs or to recall reliably. The reality is that so long as he's regularly in situations where he can ignore your recall, it won't become reliable. Personally I would stop letting him run with other dogs until you have an instant recall every single time. He is only young, so there is plenty of time for him to play later with lots of other dogs.

I like to train mine to recall on whistle. What I want is an automatic response to that whistle that becomes such an instinctive habit that they are not evaluating their choices.

Like Dasha & Piper, I believe it's important that they still recall without the promise of a reward. After lots of rewarding for recall, I use a similar method in a small area. I set up a distraction, call them. If they do not recall, I walk over, take their collar and lead them for a few steps with me. Then I let go & call them. They have to choose to come with me & are then rewarded with praise for doing so. If they do not recall, I approach them again, take their collar and repeat the process. If this takes 4 hours, I am prepared to spend 4 hours and my experience has been that its well worth it.

The other thing that I think is important is to be aware of your dogs body language. most dogs will see a distraction and there is a period where they usually evaluate that distraction before running off. Once they have started to run, your recall is less effective in the early stages. A recall given during that evaluation period is much more likely to be successful.

Make sure your recall word is not a word you use all the time. Make sure that you don't use that precious word, if you don't think your dog will come back.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Vickie

[piper]

The above method may work for dogs like BCs but try it on my beagle and you'd get the doggy equivalent of the rude finger :laugh:

Actually, I also have a beagle and she gets the same treatment. The paying her for checking in is what made the biggest diference with her - it made her aware of what we were doing. She was hard work but she was my husbands dog before we were together and had already learnt bad habits that had to be undone. I probably do reward her more frequently than the borders but still not every time.

[Vickie]

The above method may work for dogs like BCs but try it on my beagle and you'd get the doggy equivalent of the rude finger :laugh:

Out of curiosity, why do you think there would be a difference?

[Zug Zug]

We had a beagle (my sister's dog) as teenagers. I agree huski their motivation to be at your side needs much more work than the more traditional working breeds. She was nose-motivated, primarily. Whereas the kelpie I had back then was always running up and back to me and her recall was rock-solid with very little work. It just seemed natural for her. She was off lead almost all the time.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. This is exactly what I needed.

Vickie I don't think your post is harsh at all. I think you are spot on actually. That was my thinking with the long line, but I had started to worry about using it. But I think I need to get over that, and just use it carefully. He has been exercising his choice, and choosing the wrong things, so he's obviously not yet ready for free play in these circumstances. He can still continue his socialising on lead. It also makes it possible for me to grab him when he doesn't respond, as others have suggested. As opposed to having to catch him, which has started to happen and is not good.

We practised these things at the beach this morning, in the wild windy weather. He stayed on the long line, and was very cooperative. There was one time he ignored my call, and we reeled him in, no reward. He enjoyed shaved ham each time he recalled to me from another dog, then release. Piece of Schmacko when he checks in, as always.

I have rewarded him for checking in since he was very young. He generally stays very focused on me, but other dogs had started to trump me of late, which is why I posted this thread. But without other dogs in the picture he's very reliable. I am yet to try recalling him from a live frisbee, but will do that during the week and see how he goes. And my slippers - something he has developed an unfortunate attraction to of late !!

I haven't watched the vids yet but will do that now. Very much appreciated!

Edited July 14, 2012 by Zug Zug

[Zug Zug]

DLT thanks very much for loading the video and your article on the development of recalls. I found both very helpful. Your issues with Nemo sound almost exactly like Pasha's issues - friendly willing dog, bit on the boisterous side at times, recall in development. You even have the same leather lead we do by the looks of things!(Nemo is a lovely dog by the way - I love black dogs and he has a very sweet face)

From reading your article, I think I could best describe Pasha's current level as:

- Set up recalls - he is very reliable

- calling away from minor distractions - he is very reliable

- recall from play - is what we're working on now

- recall while running away - actually he generally does this and I've had lots of lovely u-shaped recalls (if you know what I mean) at the park, but not if he's running towards another dog

Your video is fantastic. I think the thing that struck me most is the time spent and the various stages he goes through during the video. At the start he looks very much like Pasha currently does when I have him at the park each morning. Very alert, keen to get into it. Then he relaxes more and I note you still have him on lead for much of this time while he meets other dogs. Then he is getting tired, and is more reliable and calm and at that point you've allowed him off lead with suitable dogs.

Our morning jaunt at the park is 30 minutes or thereabouts, so he doesn't get really tired until just towards the end, and he is rarely exhausted even then. Our evening walk is a similar length - we walk around the streets on lead, with a small off-lead bit at a local oval along the way. Rarely any other dogs around at that time.

But our weekends walks are longer, so perhaps that's when I will (when he's ready, calm and in the right circumstances) start practising with him a bit off lead.

[huski]

The above method may work for dogs like BCs but try it on my beagle and you'd get the doggy equivalent of the rude finger :laugh:

Out of curiosity, why do you think there would be a difference?

Because she doesn't have much value for people or praise. When she's stuck on a scent you could drag her away by her collar and she'd still be trying to scent. The minute you let her off she'd go back to the same spot and be instantly self rewarding herself. I've used a lot of physical corrections in the past to try and stop scenting and it didn't work. Building her value for the rewards I have to offer was far more effective. Even when I used a low stim e-collar with her for recall she still got a reward. I could phase out rewards and her recall could still be ok, but it wouldn't be what I consider reliable. Praise will never be worth more to her than the value of scenting.

ETA: If she ignored a recall command or any command really I wouldn't keep calling her, I'd grab her by the collar and put her away or similar. But she still knows that 'here' is a word that guarantees drive satisfaction when she obeys it as fast as she can.

Edited July 14, 2012 by huski