SaltyDog Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Hi Guys, I have a dog with a mystery illness. Ive posted the letter I've sent to several vets below, excuse the length of it! Lots of info. I realise the diagnosis of cancer is a big possibility...but Im not giving up on my mate just yet! If any body has any thoughts, or suggestions, please offer them! Or if there is actually a vet out there who cares enough to want to get to the bottom of this(willing to have a consult if possible), please help! The 6 vets Ive seen all just seem to want to charge me $$$ and then diagnose without really looking into it. I would just like to point out, I am not after yet another "cancer diagnosis", as I have heard this time and time again. My aim to post here is to try and find something else, or hear from a vet who has another theory. (I am more then willing to travel to see a vet(I live in Melb CBD) - given online diagnosis is useless). If you read below, you will hear why I dont believe cancer is a neat fit here...but I seem to be at a dead end, and cannot find a vet who will look deeper. Thanks in advance. ---------------------- I have an 8 year old Hungarian vizsla, Jake, who has had ongoing symptoms for at least 2 years. He has experienced a bout of what was diagnosed as Myosistitis, fluid in his abdomen, tonsillitis, and a bad cough/gag. Details as follows… Early 2010, Jake showed signs of being a bit off colour on two or three occasions. This was diagnosed as bouts of pancreatitis, due to fatty food intake and once treated went away. First half of 2011. He was showing signs of lethargy, lost a lot of weight and was quite unwell. During tests, a vet found his urine was quite diluted and suggested cushings disease and further tests were suggested. While we considered options, he seemed to come good, and got over this untreated. He regained weight, and seemed back to himself. This has not reoccurred. July/August 2011, he had extreme muscle and/or joint pain. Arthritis was the first diagnosis, but treatment failed to improve his symptoms. I googled and came up with a possible diagnosis of Myositis. He was placed on steroid treatment and the symptoms stopped in 3 or 4 days. This has not reoccurred. September 2011 Jake developed severe ascites in his tummy, he was given several ultrasounds and X-Rays, first of which showed a vague mass in his tummy. The subsequent xrays and ultrasounds found nothing to repeat that finding. He was then sent to a specialist clinic, who found to symmetrical masses in his chest, and he was diagnosed with Chest cancer, and given 3-6 months. Upon returning to our local vet, he suggested the masses found were too symmetrical and were possible swollen hilar lymphs. Jake also had tonsillitis, causing him to gag and cough. A link to lymphatic tissue swelling was suggested. Our local vet suggested possible lymphantasia. At the time, nothing was found that was suspicious in his bladder. 10 litres of fluid was drained, and Jake was placed on Aldactone and Macrolone. 2 weeks later, he was as good as he ever was. They also noted during testing that his spleen seemed to be missing. He has never had a return of Ascites. Early 2012 His latest symptom set began, which is that he is having an urge to constantly wee, and has been passing small amounts of blood at the very end of his wee. He also passed a finger sized lump of "congealed" puss recently, and upon squeezing his penis, I was able to get more puss to come out, and another blob. He hasnt had any signs of puss since that. He has also been experiencing small bouts of leaking urine beginning around a week ago. He doesn’t seem to be in any pain, but does appear to be a little depressed, which I would think is from the urge to urinate all the time. His appetite is fine, and no marked weight loss is noticeable. A recent ultrasound showed thickening of the bladder wall, which was possibly a tumour. So a sample of that was taken via needle, and the pathology result was as below... The variability in the cells both in the prostate and urine are suspicious for a carcinoma. The cells in the urine are consistent with transitional cells - while highly reactive transitional cells can have features similar to those seen here, in the absence of a cause (i.e. UTI/uroliths) the cellular variability is concerning for a tumor. The origin of the tumor is unclear. The cell populations in the urine and prostate are not identical. A tumor originating in the prostate could be of either prostatic or transitional cell origin. Spread throughout the urinary tract is possible particularly for a TCC - also variability within these tumors is also not uncommon depending on the depth of sampling. Consider biopsy to confirm the diagnosis No diagnosis has been accurate or consistent up to now and he has been to at least 5 different vets. We are at wits end! We are a little but concerned that we aren’t getting anywhere with his diagnosis, and once again the above doesn’t confirm or deny cancer. My concern is that he has had symptoms on and off for months and months...if it is cancer, surely it would be degenerative, and symptoms wouldn’t be coming and going. For example, if cancer was causing his cough, surely that would be still present? Or if it was causing his ascites, surely that would have reoccurred? It seems he gets a symptom set, then it disappears and another appears. I cant help but think he has some obscure infection or auto immune disorder, that vets locally are missing... What is really frustrating, is none of them seem to want to get to the bottom of it, and are happy to latch on to whatever the most obvious diagnosis “could” be. Nothing has been conclusive, and if cancer is present in his chest, bladder and stomach…surely he would have other signs, or at least re-occurrence of his previous symptoms. I realise cancer is still very real possibility…but something just doesn’t sit right…and I am not willing to give up just yet…hence trying online for a solution! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Sometimes there is no definite diagnosis when the whole body is involved but sometimes treating the whole body will balance it again. I suggest you consult Dr Ann Neville in East Bentleigh, Vic. She is a vet who also does Traditional Chinese Medicine with some amazing results. She successfully treated my cancer dog without even seeing him, but by doing hair analysis and working with my vets in Sydney. Then I took my "mystery illness" dog to see her and again her treatments worked after a very bizarre unsolved illness and years of seemingly unrelated problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Did your dog have his spleen removed at any time or is it just missing? If it is he will be finding it hard to fight off any infection. He could be cycling through a myriad of infections one at a time, comes good then something else sets in. One side effect of no spleen seems to be increased respiratory infections, long term constriction of the airways can contribute to heart disease as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Are you in Victoria, saltydog? Sorry, on my mobile so I can't tell. I would suggest a referral to the Melbourne Uni clinic at Werribee for a specialist opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I agree with referral to a medicine specialist. You can insist your local vet refers him to a specialist. The case sound quite complex and pretty much impossible to diagnose over the Internet, esecially without seeing the dog or any of the tests. The specialist will most likely want to repeat any radiographs, ultrasound, blood tests or other diagnostic tests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyDog Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 Hi Guys, Thanks SO MUCH for the responses so far! Much appreciated! I would suggest a referral to the Melbourne Uni clinic at Werribee for a specialist opinion. He has been to Werribee back in September, (Xrays, blood & fluids and U/Sounds), and they are the ones who picked up the possible cancer in the chest cavity, and suggested that was the cause of the coughing and also was secondary to a tumour elsewhere, that was causing the Ascetis. Both those symptoms have resolved themselves, and our local vet thinks the masses may have just been lymphatic swelling, hence his tonsils also being enlarged and causing the cough...and another lymph in his tummy causing the swelling. I suggest you consult Dr Ann Neville in East Bentleigh We are currently seeing Anne, but without results thus far. She did explain it can be a lengthy process...so we are being patient. Did your dog have his spleen removed at any time or is it just missing? Its apparently missing or at least very hard to find. Several vets have had problems finding it...Werribee said its very rare to not have a spleen, and because of that discounted it as a cause. But I agree with your thoughts about the myriad of infections due to no spleen. Does anybody else have any more information or experience on missing spleens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I would probably personally just get an exploratory done. They could open him up, have a good physical look around inside and if they come across any masses, enlarged lymph nodes etc, then biopsies can be taken then and there and sent off for testing. I hope you get some answers soon :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xyz Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I would probably personally just get an exploratory done. They could open him up, have a good physical look around inside and if they come across any masses, enlarged lymph nodes etc, then biopsies can be taken then and there and sent off for testing. I hope you get some answers soon :) X2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyDog Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 I would probably personally just get an exploratory done. I am very reluctant to do that, especially as the only thing it is going to show is Cancer. He was really knocked around by the needle biopsy and anesthetic on Friday and I dont want to put him through a full anesthetic and surgery if I can avoid it. I know it would get us an answer, but it seems we are putting him through a lot, just for our own piece of mind. If it is cancer, and that biopsy confirms that...its untreatable, and doesnt really gain anything for Jake, other then trauma. Hopefully that makes sense...I would prefer to be able to treat him on other conditions, assuming its not cancer and not put Jake through anything more then he has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I would probably personally just get an exploratory done. I am very reluctant to do that, especially as the only thing it is going to show is Cancer. He was really knocked around by the needle biopsy and anesthetic on Friday and I dont want to put him through a full anesthetic and surgery if I can avoid it. I know it would get us an answer, but it seems we are putting him through a lot, just for our own piece of mind. If it is cancer, and that biopsy confirms that...its untreatable, and doesnt really gain anything for Jake, other then trauma. Hopefully that makes sense...I would prefer to be able to treat him on other conditions, assuming its not cancer and not put Jake through anything more then he has been. Even surgery sometimes doesn't give an answer, except to rule out some things. My mystery girl had bled profusely when she whelped and had been an indifferent mother. Afterwards I realised she had in fact been ill after the whelping but not enough to pick it up. After her next season she got really ill the vets first thought it was pyo. She didn't respond to that treatment and a full blood count was all over the place indicating possibly something to do with the liver but nothing definite. A needle biopsy of the liver by a specialist failed to find the liver so we attempted a second one at the Uni, under ultrasound. They found the liver but couldn't reach it either but said she had pyo. Back to my vets and with 4 vets attending they opened her up from one end to the other to find scar tissue on her lymph nodes, a shrunken, friable liver, possible leakage of the pancreas onto the liver and NOTHING ELSE. They took biopsies of everything and the results revealed NOTHING. After 6 weeks on deaths door, she suddenly recovered after the surgery with just antibiotics. Following that, over the next couple of years, she developed bladder crystals, and alternating ear and bladder infections. It was after this I consulted Ann Neville and finally got her body in balance again. When she was spayed 4 years after the initial illness, due to cystic ovaries, I got the vet to have a look around to see if things had changed. Her liver had grown back and the scar tissie on the lymph nodes has disappeared. She was 7 at the time and lived until she was nearly 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyDog Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 Hey Dancin, Thats also my fear with Jake ...cutting him open, and putting him through that stress, would find nothing or, as I said above, incurable cancer. He is seeing Ann now, and has been for a couple of weeks, and another visit last night, she has adjusted his dosages, and added a few new herbs. This morning, he seems marginally brighter(he is currently chomping away on a pigs trotter on his bed in my office)...but its probably too early to tell, being only two doses in on the new meds. But fingers crossed we can get a result from her, as lot of other people seem to have...at least she offers some hope, unlike the "cut it and see" or "he is a goner" attitude of the other vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Hey Dancin, Thats also my fear with Jake ...cutting him open, and putting him through that stress, would find nothing or, as I said above, incurable cancer. He is seeing Ann now, and has been for a couple of weeks, and another visit last night, she has adjusted his dosages, and added a few new herbs. This morning, he seems marginally brighter(he is currently chomping away on a pigs trotter on his bed in my office)...but its probably too early to tell, being only two doses in on the new meds. But fingers crossed we can get a result from her, as lot of other people seem to have...at least she offers some hope, unlike the "cut it and see" or "he is a goner" attitude of the other vets. The Chinese Herbs usually take 4-6 weeks to make a real impact so you need to be patient. He may also need to stay on a maintenance dose of some of tem for a long time to get the body right. Also ask about the hair analysis if she hasn't already done it, as this can indicate cancer, but it won't change the treatment. It is hard for us to understand that the actual diagnosis isn't as important in Chinese Medicine. It is the cause of the illness within the body they treat, not the actual condition, so different patients with seemingly the same ailment may be treated differently. Ann has successfully treated quite a few cancer dogs I know of personally and several others for things the normal vets cannot treat. Since my first cancer dog was treated by Ann, one of the former vet nurses at my vets has completed studies to become a doctor of Trad Chinese Medicine and now Lyn Pinosa treats both dogs and humans here in Sydney at her Alternative Therapies practice, next door to Austral Vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Its apparently missing or at least very hard to find. Several vets have had problems finding it...Werribee said its very rare to not have a spleen, and because of that discounted it as a cause. But I agree with your thoughts about the myriad of infections due to no spleen. Does anybody else have any more information or experience on missing spleens? Congenital Asplenia (missing spleen) has actually had a gene identified in humans and mice, they can breed mice without spleens for testing. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/218729 this is a study of how asplenic mice developed more spontaneous mammary tumors. The immune system does have a role in managing weird cells also in the body, not just foreign invaders. Missing is rare yes, impossible no. To discount the lack of such a vital immune organ is ridiculous, particularly when the animal is showing signs of ongoing problems common in those with little/no immunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyDog Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Thats an interesting read Nekhbet. Thanks for that info. I agree, the fact they keep saying it "may be there but not showing up" just astounds me, especially given the amount of xrays and ultrasounds they have given him. The last two, had been told it was missing, and actually looked for it...still couldn't find it. It seems to me vets are of the train of thought, "what is likely is certain" and "what is unlikely is not possible." Which in this case, isnt helping...as he quite possibly has some odd auto immune disorder. I just cant believe the attitude of the vets ive been too. I accept that its tough to diagnose an animal that cant describe his symptoms, and I accept Jakes symptoms are quite obscure, and that cancer is possibly the correct diagnosis...but the vets seem to just be money grabbers. They charge me $300 for an Ultrasound, on a machine they own, and that took 15 minutes, and the only overheads on would be that it may consume $1 worth of power, TOPS...then proceed to tell me "we cant find anything", or "we dont know what we found." So what am I paying for? Because its certainly NOT an expert opinion. I would assume a person goes into veterinary science because they have a love for animals...so when does that love for animals, become a love of money? Obviously, I am becoming quite frustrated with the whole thing and vets in general. I can tell you, if I was a vet, and I was seeing a dog like this...it would have piqued my curiosity not to mention my want to try and help an animal...seems like vets just take my $$$, until they are out of answers, then give up, leaving Jake and I in the same place we were. And before anybody says it, I DO understand they need to make money as a business. But these vets have made their fair share off me, (By which I mean THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars) and we are still yet to give a definitive diagnosis...pretty piss poor IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I understand that you are going through a tough time, but bear in mind that vets pay lots for insurance, labour, and running costs (including the cost of the ultrasound machine). I have never met a rich vet. The vets that I know all live modest lives. They certainly could earn good six figure sums if they became doctors. When I found out what a young vet earned I was shocked - it was below the average wage. Unfortunately, some things just don't have a diagnosis, just like it happens with humans. The thing that has been suggested - open him up to physically see what is happening - has been ruled out by you. I fully understand why you don't want to do this, but you can't blame vets for not exhausting all options then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyDog Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 I disagree Megan. As I said I understand business basics, I work for and have owned several small to medium businesses, in Hospitality and in Telecommunications. I can tell you 100% categorically, that if I served a customer a below average meal, or a customer had no phones for an extended period of time...I would not be asking them to pay, and they certainly wouldnt be expecting to pay. I have paid every bill to this vet without a complaint, despite it being 12 months of no result...but his last contact with me was very disappointing, hence my frustration. To open him up and diagnose something that they cannot even narrow down is ridiculous, and I laughed out loud when he said it. The original diagnosis was chest, so they wanted to cut him there, then his stomach, now his bladder? Theoretically they could have chopped him 3 times now. Its not good enough. My issue is that Vets just seems to put it in the too hard basket way to quickly, especially considering the amount of money I have spent at the current vet, and his attitude now is to give up on making a diagnosis. I also disagree with Vets making no money...yes, maybe a first year vet, or second, and the same would apply for a doctor. But partner in a large practice would be raking it in. I only need to look at the car he drives to know that is the case. All the vets I have visited have been large multi vet practices, and in 4 out of 6 cases...I have seen a partner at least for some of the consults. Our regular vet is a partner. But never once has there been a offer to reduce fees, or spend some time trying to get to the bottom of this. The last charge of $77 for looking at a drop of urine under a microscope is disgusting, and I was appaled. He was out of the room for all of 2 mins...and charged us the full price. Anyway, its not the point. My aim of this post was to get some suggestions on what may be Jakes illness, and I have had some good input on this and on other forums, which is much appreciated. I just wish vets would show as much interest in getting to the bottom of this. Is there a Dr Gregory House in the veterinary world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeebie Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 For what it is worth 2 possibles - 1. allergies causing overwhelming immune response, trial a total specialised natural (no grains)diet and see if condition improves. 2. Renal dysplasia have DNA sampling done by dog genes in Canada (they are online have a read up on condition - http://www.terrificpets.com/articles/102126165.asp It can be so frustrating when this happens but I would be inclined to only treat the dog symptomatically and relieve any distress not cause more distress. Have bloods been done to exclude tumour markers, raised renal function tests, abnormal full blood count to exclude leukaemia or liver disease etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Has he been tested for Lupus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyDog Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Has he been tested for Lupus? Not as yet...but I am going to look that up now, and discuss with my vet. Thanks for the tip! It can be so frustrating when this happens but I would be inclined to only treat the dog symptomatically and relieve any distress not cause more distress.Have bloods been done to exclude tumour markers, raised renal function tests, abnormal full blood count to exclude leukaemia or liver disease etc? Yeah, I agree. I dont want to put him through any more stress...and I suspect have no definitive diagnosis either. Since his last Ultrasound and needle Biposy Friday week ago, he just hasnt been himself. Up until then, his only real symptoms was the weeing constantly, with some blood at the end. Now he just seems very down and depressed and not himself at all. I dont know if the tests and vet experience have caused it, or if whatever he has is getting worse...but its awful to see him like this. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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