Ankc No Longer Recognising Flyball Titles

[Jumabaar]

Victoria is similar. Most of our comps are also in conjunction with agricultural shows, so we get heaps of spectators and there is usually someone commentating as well so the public know what the hell is going on :p

There are also several demo's held throughout the year at smaller shows and events, this includes the Royal and Pet Expo.

This year there will be a competition held at the Royal for the first time and I expect the crowd to be huge, agility usually draws a crowd but flyball has a competition aspect where people can cheer on individual dogs or the team.

As Jumabaar said, our Nationals are held with other big events. Dandenong show (for the Nationals next year) is a pretty big show and always get a massive crowd!

I know SA, do alot of demo's throughout the year to gain more interest and have increased to several teams. Same as Tasmania who got enough people involved to send across I think 2? teams last year, it was their first ever comp :D

Thanks for the interstate view!!

[OSoSwift]

The ANKC title is important so that it can be recorded on the pedigree.

But you cannot expect a title gained under an unafilliated body to be recognised on the pedigree. That is the pitfall of participating in an activity that is not offically sanctioned.

My Dobes had titles that they gained that were not ANKC recognised but were highly regarded within their breed. And advertising included these titles and no they were not on their ANKC pedigree but the results were easily found and verified via their national breed organisation. I am not sure why having the flyball title as a recognised ANKC title is so important when titles gained by passing temperment tests and achieving titles in at least three different areas to gain a ROM were not ANKC recognised titles but still very important for the breed and everyone coped just fine with that.

By all means get the ANKC affiliation as it is great for the sport but I think using the line of it is important for the title to show up on ANKC pedigrees lacks any base.

I hope it does get recognition but I also think more work needs to be done to gain that recognition.

[Kavik]

If there is so much enthusiasm within the flyball community, why then did nobody start a club that was ANKC state body affiliated, and hold comps at their club?

It sounds like the reason is that it is easier to go with the flow of the already established AFA following.

[Sheridan]

It sounds to me that the AFA doesn't need ANKC assistance at all.

[~*Shell*~]

If there is so much enthusiasm within the flyball community, why then did nobody start a club that was ANKC state body affiliated, and hold comps at their club?

It sounds like the reason is that it is easier to go with the flow of the already established AFA following.

Because if it ain't broke, don't fix it. A lot of the clubs are ANKC state body affiliated (for example, sutherland is affiliated with dogs NSW) but because flyball is no longer recognised, they can't hold an ANKC sanctioned flyball comp. They were never able to in the first place because of the way it was set up - was that a problem? No, because the AFA was there and as I said, it was working.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the ANKC allowed the affiliation of the AFA in the first place. If they wanted to control the organisation of flyball, they didn't have to allow that affiliation. For them to allow it, have nothing change in terms of the insurance and then blame that insurance for ending the affiliation makes no sense.

It took 3 years of fighting for the AFA to become affiliated - surely that was enough time for the ANKC to see any potential problems? And if not, then that's a massive problem in itself. The agreement has been in place for years too.

The great thing about flyball though is that we're already organised and if it took us 3 years to fight for affiliation, we will happily spend another 3 fighting for our sport to become re-recognised.

Our sport is very different in that it requires a lot of post-event organisation. We don't get a certificate at the end of the day with the number of points our dogs received - it takes a lot of organisation to get the points sorted out. At our last comp, we ran 58 races.... 58 races, each with 8 dogs running. It's a lot of work to organise who got what. What other sport requires teams like that? Most dog sports are individual events, with the exception of agility's strategic pairs. But that's what makes our sport so great. Have you ever been to the royal and watched people watching the showring, obedience or agility? They might get into it a little bit. Now go to the flyball ring and watch people get revved up over dogs they don't even know. It doesn't even compare. The sad thing is that it would be a great branding exercise for the state's controlling body to put a logo somewhere on the field while so many people watch but they haven't done it - and now, they can't. They might not have a publicity team, but simple things like that to make people more brand aware might sway someone into looking them up and seeing what they do.

[StarLapyz]

The ANKC title is important so that it can be recorded on the pedigree.

But you cannot expect a title gained under an unafilliated body to be recognised on the pedigree. That is the pitfall of participating in an activity that is not offically sanctioned.

My Dobes had titles that they gained that were not ANKC recognised but were highly regarded within their breed. And advertising included these titles and no they were not on their ANKC pedigree but the results were easily found and verified via their national breed organisation. I am not sure why having the flyball title as a recognised ANKC title is so important when titles gained by passing temperment tests and achieving titles in at least three different areas to gain a ROM were not ANKC recognised titles but still very important for the breed and everyone coped just fine with that.

By all means get the ANKC affiliation as it is great for the sport but I think using the line of it is important for the title to show up on ANKC pedigrees lacks any base.

I hope it does get recognition but I also think more work needs to be done to gain that recognition.

It is because the pedigree of a dog is the official record of that dogs achievements. Accordingly ALL titles it gains (na matter where they come from) should be recordable on the official pedigree that is maintained by ANKC.

If it isn't on the pedigree, than in three or four generations is anyone going to remember that that dog ALSO had a bunch of other titles.

The ANKC are a registry first. They need to stop being so bloody minded and difficult and do what a registry is SUPPOSED to do and register things.

Affiliation or where the title comes from shouldn't matter at all.

Edited July 4, 2012 by StarLapyz

[~*Shell*~]

It sounds to me that the AFA doesn't need ANKC assistance at all.

And no, while we probably don't "need" it, we certainly want it.

A lot of people won't even consider trying a sport unless it will earn their dog a title. The AFA has seen a lot of growth since it's ANKC affiliation and it hasn't been one sided - many flyballers have become members of their state's controlling body for the sole purpose of having their dog's titles awarded. That's a lot of people who no longer have any reason to give their money to those controlling bodies, who already have dropping membership numbers.

Look at the number of people who do AADA agility compared to ANKC. It's the same general idea - most dogs would be able to run at both kinds of agility because a lot of the exercises have already been taught. I've never seen an AADA comp as big as the ANKC ones I've seen. Now make that an entirely new thing you have to teach... without ANKC recognition, the numbers of people who will bother with flyball will drop.

[Kavik]

It sounds to me that the AFA doesn't need ANKC assistance at all.

And no, while we probably don't "need" it, we certainly want it.

A lot of people won't even consider trying a sport unless it will earn their dog a title. The AFA has seen a lot of growth since it's ANKC affiliation and it hasn't been one sided - many flyballers have become members of their state's controlling body for the sole purpose of having their dog's titles awarded. That's a lot of people who no longer have any reason to give their money to those controlling bodies, who already have dropping membership numbers.

Look at the number of people who do AADA agility compared to ANKC. It's the same general idea - most dogs would be able to run at both kinds of agility because a lot of the exercises have already been taught. I've never seen an AADA comp as big as the ANKC ones I've seen. Now make that an entirely new thing you have to teach... without ANKC recognition, the numbers of people who will bother with flyball will drop.

Actually, I have heard that in one state (QLD?) ADAA agility has MUCH bigger numbers than ANKC agility. It seems to differ from state to state.

[Kavik]

If there is so much enthusiasm within the flyball community, why then did nobody start a club that was ANKC state body affiliated, and hold comps at their club?

It sounds like the reason is that it is easier to go with the flow of the already established AFA following.

Because if it ain't broke, don't fix it. A lot of the clubs are ANKC state body affiliated (for example, sutherland is affiliated with dogs NSW) but because flyball is no longer recognised, they can't hold an ANKC sanctioned flyball comp. They were never able to in the first place because of the way it was set up - was that a problem? No, because the AFA was there and as I said, it was working.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the ANKC allowed the affiliation of the AFA in the first place. If they wanted to control the organisation of flyball, they didn't have to allow that affiliation. For them to allow it, have nothing change in terms of the insurance and then blame that insurance for ending the affiliation makes no sense.

It took 3 years of fighting for the AFA to become affiliated - surely that was enough time for the ANKC to see any potential problems? And if not, then that's a massive problem in itself. The agreement has been in place for years too.

The great thing about flyball though is that we're already organised and if it took us 3 years to fight for affiliation, we will happily spend another 3 fighting for our sport to become re-recognised.

Our sport is very different in that it requires a lot of post-event organisation. We don't get a certificate at the end of the day with the number of points our dogs received - it takes a lot of organisation to get the points sorted out. At our last comp, we ran 58 races.... 58 races, each with 8 dogs running. It's a lot of work to organise who got what. What other sport requires teams like that? Most dog sports are individual events, with the exception of agility's strategic pairs. But that's what makes our sport so great. Have you ever been to the royal and watched people watching the showring, obedience or agility? They might get into it a little bit. Now go to the flyball ring and watch people get revved up over dogs they don't even know. It doesn't even compare. The sad thing is that it would be a great branding exercise for the state's controlling body to put a logo somewhere on the field while so many people watch but they haven't done it - and now, they can't. They might not have a publicity team, but simple things like that to make people more brand aware might sway someone into looking them up and seeing what they do.

Since Sutherland is affiliated with DogsNSW, why were they not able to set up a comp under ANKC? How was the way it was set up a problem?

[Kavik]

I also happen to like that there are alternate registries for agility. It means that when starting out, if you are as nervous as I was, you can start out in a smaller, less formal organisation to get the hang of doing competitions and get nerves under control before entering larger more formal events.

[aussielover]

Whilst I understand it is frustrating that no one seems to be able to get a clear, specific answer as to the reasons why the ankc made the decision, I don't understand why flyball is not affiliated with the ankc the same way as many of the other more common dog sports like obedience and agility are? Can the afa not seek the same level of affiliation as these activities?

As the current/previous situation stands I don't see how the ankc really benefits from the relationship especially if it is not even required to be a member of the ankc/state body to participate? It seems they get pretty much no revenue from flyball events ? Perhaps I have misinterpreted though?

Of course the ankc should promote all dog activities, but it does make it harder and less worthwhile for them if it

doesn't directly attract more people to join or get them

more money.

Personally my experience with fly ballers have not been that good- I enquired with 2 clubs about starting and was

told that they were only after small, fast dogs or border collies. Perhaps unlucky and I have met other people who do fly ball who are very nice. I've never been to an agility club that discriminated by breed.... If anything they tend to really support people with more unusual breeds

[~*Shell*~]

Since Sutherland is affiliated with DogsNSW, why were they not able to set up a comp under ANKC? How was the way it was set up a problem?

Who would keep record of the times/points? There is no infrastructure set up for it except through the AFA. The controlling bodies aren't interested in doing it either and now that flyball isn't a recognised sport with the ANKC, they won't set it up because they have to adhere to the ruling.

And that's great that you like that there are two kinds of agility.... alas there is only one kind of flyball. AFA sanctioned. And now that it's not recognised by the ANKC, we don't even have the option of 2.

Whilst I understand it is frustrating that no one seems to be able to get a clear, specific answer as to the reasons why the ankc made the decision, I don't understand why flyball is not affiliated with the ankc the same way as many of the other more common dog sports like obedience and agility are? Can the afa not seek the same level of affiliation as these activities?

Flyball is a whole new territory as far as the way points and titles are awarded. Our last comp was 58 races... each with at least 8 dogs and as I was captaining that day and my team alone had 6 dogs, we're talking hundreds and hundreds of calculations that have to be done. It's not feasible to award certificates at the end of the day as they do in other sports. We don't have quallies, we have cumulative points like the show ring. But since our teams change heat-to-heat it's a massive effort to get points done, and not possible to get them done by the end of a comp.

As the current/previous situation stands I don't see how the ankc really benefits from the relationship especially if it is not even required to be a member of the ankc/state body to participate? It seems they get pretty much no revenue from flyball events ? Perhaps I have misinterpreted though?

Of course the ankc should promote all dog activities, but it does make it harder and less worthwhile for them if it

doesn't directly attract more people to join or get them

more money.

The state bodies benefit from memberships from people who only do flyball, people who are only members in order for their dogs to get titles. Many of these people started with flyball and now do multiple other sports with their dogs too, which the state bodies also benefit from.

The ANKC benefits from those memberships as well as through flyball being an exciting spectator sport. Watch it at the royal. Aside from general specials at the royal, there is nothing that attracts a crowd like flyball and we attract that crowd all day, every day we're there.

Personally my experience with fly ballers have not been that good- I enquired with 2 clubs about starting and was

told that they were only after small, fast dogs or border collies. Perhaps unlucky and I have met other people who do fly ball who are very nice. I've never been to an agility club that discriminated by breed.... If anything they tend to really support people with more unusual breeds

Zero is anything but a small, fast dog or a border collie and yet, we are welcomed to flyball and always have been. We have Poocow's aussie, flynn at our club too who has been welcomed. We train at fairfield. Zero is a 7.5-10 second dog depending on the weather - he's slow but he's reliable and is very well loved at our club. We do have a lot of border collies but no more than my obedience club does.

Zero's team last comp was a siberian husky, a tibetan terrier, a small cross breed (apparently a calavier x toy poodle but we have our doubts - looks more like a mini daschund), a cattle dog and 2 older border collies (one who can barely see). Not exactly a team of fast or small dogs and not a team of super fast border collies. We are a division 5 team and we aren't at all competitive but we love our dogs and our sport and that's not what matters to us.

[TigerJack]

If there is so much enthusiasm within the flyball community, why then did nobody start a club that was ANKC state body affiliated, and hold comps at their club?

It sounds like the reason is that it is easier to go with the flow of the already established AFA following.

Because if it ain't broke, don't fix it. A lot of the clubs are ANKC state body affiliated (for example, sutherland is affiliated with dogs NSW) but because flyball is no longer recognised, they can't hold an ANKC sanctioned flyball comp. They were never able to in the first place because of the way it was set up - was that a problem? No, because the AFA was there and as I said, it was working.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the ANKC allowed the affiliation of the AFA in the first place. If they wanted to control the organisation of flyball, they didn't have to allow that affiliation. For them to allow it, have nothing change in terms of the insurance and then blame that insurance for ending the affiliation makes no sense.

It took 3 years of fighting for the AFA to become affiliated - surely that was enough time for the ANKC to see any potential problems? And if not, then that's a massive problem in itself. The agreement has been in place for years too.

The great thing about flyball though is that we're already organised and if it took us 3 years to fight for affiliation, we will happily spend another 3 fighting for our sport to become re-recognised.

Our sport is very different in that it requires a lot of post-event organisation. We don't get a certificate at the end of the day with the number of points our dogs received - it takes a lot of organisation to get the points sorted out. At our last comp, we ran 58 races.... 58 races, each with 8 dogs running. It's a lot of work to organise who got what. What other sport requires teams like that? Most dog sports are individual events, with the exception of agility's strategic pairs. But that's what makes our sport so great. Have you ever been to the royal and watched people watching the showring, obedience or agility? They might get into it a little bit. Now go to the flyball ring and watch people get revved up over dogs they don't even know. It doesn't even compare. The sad thing is that it would be a great branding exercise for the state's controlling body to put a logo somewhere on the field while so many people watch but they haven't done it - and now, they can't. They might not have a publicity team, but simple things like that to make people more brand aware might sway someone into looking them up and seeing what they do.

Since Sutherland is affiliated with DogsNSW, why were they not able to set up a comp under ANKC? How was the way it was set up a problem?

Kavic, there is some error in the prior post. Sutherland could certainly have held ANKC comps without getting affiliated with the AFA, there was no problem with the setup.

some history. I am a member of St George Flyball. Some years ago the Sutherland Dog Training Club (who at that time did not do Flyball) approached us and asked if several of their members could come join our club and learn Flyball with the view to returning to their own club and starting it there. We agreed as it was a great way to increase flyball access to everyone by helping set up additional clubs. They came to us and ran with us for a couple of years and they then went back and started up for themselves. They were racing under their own banner shortly thereafter. They soon started running competitions and they chose to go via the AFA sanction route. They could have chosen to go via ANKC but did not. It may have something to do with how far in advance ANKC requires notice of comps perhaps. (I was part of helping them host their first comp and at no time did they ever discuss going via ANKC.)

I think some people are missing the (subtle perhaps) point that the agreement didn't really change the practices of any club already doing flyball. The agreement was to hopefull get other ANKC clubs who were not already doing flyball to start entering teams without needing to bother with AFA affiliation. It was expected by the AFA committee at the time (I was on there) that we continued to promote as we had always done and that the ANKC would also promote to its ANKC clubs. I think that all they did was post the rules on the website and that was about it.

To host a flyball comp under the agreement an AFA club can apply for a comp sanction to the AFA. (Approval of sanction means AFA insurance covers the comp.) then teams from either the AFA affiliated clubs or ANKC ones, enter via an entry form. The entry form asks if you are AFA team or ANKC team. An ANKC club could also apply to the ANKC for sanction using exactly the same form, then both AFA and ANKC teams could enter in the same manner. The shared agreement meant we all used the same rules, recognised each others judges, recognised titles, dog point accrual (for titles) was then held on the AFA database for all dogs including the non AFA member dogs. Achieve a title, apply for AFA and / or ANKC title. Up to the individual.

(Sorry, all this isn't really in answer to Kavic but I'm no good at putting multiple quotes in replies to answer other people.)

[Rebanne]

To host a flyball comp under the agreement an AFA club can apply for a comp sanction to the AFA. (Approval of sanction means AFA insurance covers the comp.) then teams from either the AFA affiliated clubs or ANKC ones, enter via an entry form. The entry form asks if you are AFA team or ANKC team. An ANKC club could also apply to the ANKC for sanction using exactly the same form, then both AFA and ANKC teams could enter in the same manner. The shared agreement meant we all used the same rules, recognised each others judges, recognised titles, dog point accrual (for titles) was then held on the AFA database for all dogs including the non AFA member dogs. Achieve a title, apply for AFA and / or ANKC title. Up to the individual.

so while the agreement has been in place no one has had to join an ANKC state body and even if they did they didn't have to apply to the state body for their title? they just had to join and apply to the AFA?

[Jumabaar]

Since Sutherland is affiliated with DogsNSW, why were they not able to set up a comp under ANKC? How was the way it was set up a problem?

Who would keep record of the times/points? There is no infrastructure set up for it except through the AFA. The controlling bodies aren't interested in doing it either and now that flyball isn't a recognised sport with the ANKC, they won't set it up because they have to adhere to the ruling.

And that's great that you like that there are two kinds of agility.... alas there is only one kind of flyball. AFA sanctioned. And now that it's not recognised by the ANKC, we don't even have the option of 2.

Whilst I understand it is frustrating that no one seems to be able to get a clear, specific answer as to the reasons why the ankc made the decision, I don't understand why flyball is not affiliated with the ankc the same way as many of the other more common dog sports like obedience and agility are? Can the afa not seek the same level of affiliation as these activities?

Flyball is a whole new territory as far as the way points and titles are awarded. Our last comp was 58 races... each with at least 8 dogs and as I was captaining that day and my team alone had 6 dogs, we're talking hundreds and hundreds of calculations that have to be done. It's not feasible to award certificates at the end of the day as they do in other sports. We don't have quallies, we have cumulative points like the show ring. But since our teams change heat-to-heat it's a massive effort to get points done, and not possible to get them done by the end of a comp.

As the current/previous situation stands I don't see how the ankc really benefits from the relationship especially if it is not even required to be a member of the ankc/state body to participate? It seems they get pretty much no revenue from flyball events ? Perhaps I have misinterpreted though?

Of course the ankc should promote all dog activities, but it does make it harder and less worthwhile for them if it

doesn't directly attract more people to join or get them

more money.

The state bodies benefit from memberships from people who only do flyball, people who are only members in order for their dogs to get titles. Many of these people started with flyball and now do multiple other sports with their dogs too, which the state bodies also benefit from.

The ANKC benefits from those memberships as well as through flyball being an exciting spectator sport. Watch it at the royal. Aside from general specials at the royal, there is nothing that attracts a crowd like flyball and we attract that crowd all day, every day we're there.

Personally my experience with fly ballers have not been that good- I enquired with 2 clubs about starting and was

told that they were only after small, fast dogs or border collies. Perhaps unlucky and I have met other people who do fly ball who are very nice. I've never been to an agility club that discriminated by breed.... If anything they tend to really support people with more unusual breeds

Zero is anything but a small, fast dog or a border collie and yet, we are welcomed to flyball and always have been. We have Poocow's aussie, flynn at our club too who has been welcomed. We train at fairfield. Zero is a 7.5-10 second dog depending on the weather - he's slow but he's reliable and is very well loved at our club. We do have a lot of border collies but no more than my obedience club does.

Zero's team last comp was a siberian husky, a tibetan terrier, a small cross breed (apparently a calavier x toy poodle but we have our doubts - looks more like a mini daschund), a cattle dog and 2 older border collies (one who can barely see). Not exactly a team of fast or small dogs and not a team of super fast border collies. We are a division 5 team and we aren't at all competitive but we love our dogs and our sport and that's not what matters to us.

I think there is also the element of cost. The Box costs 2k, each club needs a back up box. We have training jumps, as well as comp jumps- they need a full set of heights which I think cost $300 (and you need two plus spare heights).

Then there is the timing system (apron $10k) to buy in from the states. Most clubs are fine fundraising for their own basic costs but it really does take a larger organisation to get in the lights- you may need two sets of lights to hold a large competition.

It has already been said that the ANKC does not buy equipment for dog sports, and I am sure there would be a funding issue with our state bodies if we were to try and get a solo ANKC flyball league going. 15-30 member clubs just don't have the resources to raise the equipment to get the sport going without a national body to pool resources.

At present the AFA has these lights in every state running a team. We have extra lights for big events. We pay a levy at all comps using the lights to pay for their upkeep and renewal. if the ankc team were to step up we would need a specific flyball levy since I don't think $1 an entry (since you only do one entry for one team with 6 dogs on it) is really going to cut it.

So even from a financial perspective it seems to make more sense to put pressure back on the ANKC to go back to negotiations with the AFA and to then really try and offer it to its members and let them know that it is offers through the ANKC. I am not quite sure why there was an onus on the AFA to promote that the ANKC would allow teams. Surely the ANKC could have sent this out to its members. It did have a co-ordinator for flyball- why didnt they get on the phone to the clubs with both affiliations and ask them to run and ANKC comp?

Edited July 5, 2012 by Jumabaar

[Sayreovi]

Personally my experience with fly ballers have not been that good- I enquired with 2 clubs about starting and was

told that they were only after small, fast dogs or border collies. Perhaps unlucky and I have met other people who do fly ball who are very nice. I've never been to an agility club that discriminated by breed.... If anything they tend to really support people with more unusual breeds

That's a disgusting attitude from the club and certainly not shared by 95% of flyballers, so I am sorry that you got told them. Sure it's exciting watching the faster dogs, but I love watching all the different breeds especially those not usually seen like Sibes!

Besides you don't need a BC to have a fast dog, there are alot of other pure breds and mixes competing at the moment that outrun the Borders :D

[Salukifan]

Meh..

Edited July 5, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Jumabaar]

Meh..

The AFA just wanted more people to be able to access the sport and more comps for everyone.....

[Salukifan]

Meh..

The AFA just wanted more people to be able to access the sport and more comps for everyone.....

So exactly what/how did the AFA act to assist the ANKC to accredit and train judges and run comps under the ANKC banner.

After all, they were the affiliate with the knowledge, judges, members and equipment that could make it happen. Did they do anything in that context?

Edited July 5, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Jumabaar]

Meh..

The AFA just wanted more people to be able to access the sport and more comps for everyone.....

So exactly what/how did the AFA act to assist the ANKC to accredit and train judges and run comps under the ANKC banner.

After all, they were the affiliate with the knowledge, judges, members and equipment that could make it happen. Did they do anything in that context?

That was outlined in TJ's post.

Also I will point out that the ANKC didnt have a problem with the affiliation agreement- just the insurance so not sure why anyone else would have a problem with it......

Edited July 5, 2012 by Jumabaar