Reporting Incidents To State Bodies

[gsdog2]

I haven't been to a trial recently, but can't remember witnessing anyone mistreating their dogs when I was trialling. I'm training at a number of different training grounds now and find it difficult when I see someone mistreating their dogs there. I'm not an instructor so it's really not my place to say anything - but it's hard not to! When I see someone really yanking the lead on a dog wearing a head halti (and I can see how angry the handler is), is it my place to say something?

[ness]

I gather its actually an offense if you don't report such an incident and your witness to it. I do believe people can use the system to be vindictive though and its also easy for outsiders to misinterpret a reaction of a dog and assume something happened when it was nothing.

Edited July 2, 2012 by ness

[canine fun sports]

I wish I had not mentioned the dog to dog issue.

This post was really supposed to be about people mistreating dogs.

I think for the most part, people are aware of how to deal with dog to dog aggression and know their rights to either report, or not report it. And I agree with CFS, it is sometimes difficult to decide whether aggression occurs or not.

I don't feel this is the case with people mistreating their dogs. Someone hitting their dog is not difficult to justify. It is just wrong!

I have no idea whether I could or should have reported that lady belting the crap out of her GSD on dogs NSW grounds.

Hi Vickie,

Once again, I think that is is difficult to give a clear dividing line between mistreatment and correction.

The two examples that will closely resemble incidents that we have talked about, but they are my semi-fictitious versions are:

1. some-one who was very frustrated by a dog's behaviour losing their cool and shoving / slapping their dog but not "beating it up". This incident was reported.

2. some-one who was very displeased with their dog's performance in the ring showing their displeasure to such an extreme with their voice and body language (but no actual physical contact) and the dog crawled out of the ring on its belly. This owner did it twice on the one day.

Even though there was no physical contact, I felt the that the second dog had a much worse time of it. And yet, no-one thought to report that. Well, I did, but I did not think it would go anywhere. Rest assured, though, if it had happened in my ring, the handler would have received a warning. And a second offence would be a disqualification for the day.

That said, I have been in a similar situation myself where I have tried to 'neutrally" escort my dog from the ring without a lead. She pulled away from me so I accidentally yanked her by the scruff of her neck so she screamed. I was mortified. But I was horrified when I was later unofficially accused (anonamously bad-mouthed on the internet, actually) for mistreating my dog. So, from the outside, sometimes these things look worse than they actually are. I learnt from this incident. If i want to stop my dog's fun in the ring, I simply stop still and request the steward brings me a lead so I can quietly walk the dog out on lead.

These are all ethical dilemmas that we need to sort out in our own heads, and because not everyone agrees with what is correct, it will be difficult to arbitrate on any single incident. Once again, there are a couple of things I would look at before deciding on any action:

1. Was the dog actually doing something "wrong" at the time of the correction / mistreatment, or was the correction / mistreatment too late?

2. How severe was the correction / mistreatment?

3. I usually like to look at the dog's reaction to such a correction / mistreatment. Is the dog still submissive, dejected, unhappy after the correction / mistreatment or did he bounce back with an attitude of "oh, you don't want me to do that, what can I do now, instead? In other words, what is the relationship the dog has with the person?

4. Is a "correction" the most appropriate response for the misbehaviour? eg if a dog has snapped at another dog becasue it is nervous, then a physical correction is only going to make the dog more nervous in the future. Withdrawal of the dog from a threatening situation is a far more appropriate response in this case.

So, Vickie, there is nothing cut and dried about it. And, of course this is all relative. We do not like to see any dog being abused, ever, but I think on a scale of 1 to 10, what we have been talking about is on the milder side.

Cheers,

[BJean]

OT:

I'm not an advocate for smacking children - huge power differential and abominably abusive.

It can't be said that children understand why they get smacked. They might have a sense of wrong (questionable) but they definately do not get the violence or hatred that comes with a smack.

It can't be said that dogs don't understand either. It is more correct to say we simply don't know.

Can't think of any other species that smacks for 'punishment.'

Punishment doesn't work anyways.

I don't think you can say its part of a training regime either as it is usually an emotional reflex done in anger.

SMACKING

My girls mouth / bite and get hold of their their pups for 'discipline',

I guess that's punishment.

And it works.

When mama growls the pups know to back off or else;

and when mama puts a bone in the middle of the pups' play group, as enticing as that bone is, if its mama's they cant touch it or she will wallop them.

Subordinate dogs will also receive treatment similar to the above.

The dogs dont smack (obviously :laugh: ), but they certainly discipline by physical reprimand.

Edited July 2, 2012 by lilli

[Vickie]

So, Vickie, there is nothing cut and dried about it. And, of course this is all relative. We do not like to see any dog being abused, ever, but I think on a scale of 1 to 10, what we have been talking about is on the milder side.

Cheers,

Yes, I would agree, it is often not cut & dried.

However I consider there was nothing mild about that woman beating the crap out of her GSD and I cannot think of any reasonable excuse for such actions.

[canine fun sports]

So, Vickie, there is nothing cut and dried about it. And, of course this is all relative. We do not like to see any dog being abused, ever, but I think on a scale of 1 to 10, what we have been talking about is on the milder side.

Cheers,

Yes, I would agree, it is often not cut & dried.

However I consider there was nothing mild about that woman beating the crap out of her GSD and I cannot think of any reasonable excuse for such actions.

And I suspect that, if as described, it would not have a "favourable scoring" on my 4 questions, either.

If we want to talk about specifics, in this situations, guess the point then becomes, how do we report it and to whom?

I gather this all happened, not at a DogsNSW event, but at the DogsNSW grounds.

Since you do not know the person involved (an assumption) it is probably inappropriate to go and talk to the person, although, perhaps calling out to them that you thought their action was unnecessary might just interrupt their undesired behaviour. (Dog training principals!) You could report it to the office. I am sure DogsNSW would be able to take some sort of action, especially if the owner was a DogsNSW owner. If they are not, perhaps they were tresapssing??? I suspect, however, that the people would be long gone before you could come back with some-one from the office (unless you had the office phone number on speed dial of your mobile phone?) It would be difficult to identify some-one, except by taking a car rego number, but since DogsNSW do not have a record of people's car rego, that would probably not help in identifying some-one.

I know I would want to explain to the the German Shepherd owner that their actions, if anything, will increase the likelihood of repeat aggressive behaviour. But I suspect that the owner of the German Shepherd would be likely to have high levels of adrenalin, and would not be too responsive to anything an outsider would say.

In the ideal world, let some-one who can do something about it know about the situation. In the real world, there was probably very little that could have been done effectively.

Cheers,

[Diva]

I suspect, however, that the people would be long gone before you could come back with some-one from the office (unless you had the office phone number on speed dial of your mobile phone?) It would be difficult to identify some-one, except by taking a car rego number, but since DogsNSW do not have a record of people's car rego, that would probably not help in identifying some-one.I know I would want to explain to the the German Shepherd owner that their actions, if anything, will increase the likelihood of repeat aggressive behaviour. But I suspect that the owner of the German Shepherd would be likely to have high levels of adrenalin, and would not be too responsive to anything an outsider would say.

Most mobile phones can take a photo these days, if they were a dogs NSW member that might make id quite easy - and taking photos of the beating could be good evidence too. Not saying I would - without seeing the actual incident it's impossible for me to say - but technology does have it's uses in shining a light on such situations.

[nawnim]

Once at a purebred dog show I saw what I considered to be cruelty but I am not sure whether others would agree, and I'm also not sure whether it is off topic.

I saw three beagles in a wire crate big enough for one. One dog was actually sitting on top of the other two. Presumably they had been in this situation for some time and the people around were aware. I said nothing mainly because there was no-one with the dogs. Also because I was too chicken. I have often thought about it since and wished I had said something.

Is this sort of thing normal at dog shows? And is it okay?

[canine fun sports]

Once at a purebred dog show I saw what I considered to be cruelty but I am not sure whether others would agree, and I'm also not sure whether it is off topic.

I saw three beagles in a wire crate big enough for one. One dog was actually sitting on top of the other two. Presumably they had been in this situation for some time and the people around were aware. I said nothing mainly because there was no-one with the dogs. Also because I was too chicken. I have often thought about it since and wished I had said something.

Is this sort of thing normal at dog shows? And is it okay?

You would need to know the dogs. People are often surprised at how many of my dogs go into the one crate - and they do that even when the door is not shut. We often cannot find Sparkle becasue Sporty is lying on top of her - she could move is she wanted to, but chooses not to.

But I would never expect Rabbit to have to crowd in with another dog.

A nice example of why (sometimes) it is difficult to define cruelty.

Cheers,

Edited July 2, 2012 by canine fun sports

[Fred Flintstone]

How can smacking your dog ever be an acceptable training method?

One very smart man once said....'The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated ~ Mahatma Gandhi'(1869-1948. Spiritual leader of India)

BTW I understand that regarding the abuse incident mentioned, the person was proven to be guilty!

Cheers. FF

[melzawelza]

I think the difference is that a child generally knows why he/she is getting a smack. A dog does not. And if you can't understand the difference and why a dog would still wag his tail and come closer after receiving a smack then perhaps you should rethink fostering.

This isn't true. Smacking a dog is positive punishment and if the timing is right and the dog has deliberately not followed a known command then a dog will know exactly why it's being smacked and it can serve to reduce that behaviour in the future.

I'm not necessarily advocating smacking (although my dog has had a few quick backhands across the rump when she's done the wrong thing), but if it's done correctly then there is no reason why a dog wouldn't 'understand' it.

OT:

I'm not an advocate for smacking children - huge power differential and abominably abusive.

It can't be said that children understand why they get smacked. They might have a sense of wrong (questionable) but they definately do not get the violence or hatred that comes with a smack.

It can't be said that dogs don't understand either. It is more correct to say we simply don't know.

Can't think of any other species that smacks for 'punishment.'

Punishment doesn't work anyways.

I don't think you can say its part of a training regime either as it is usually an emotional reflex done in anger.

SMACKING

My girls mouth / bite and get hold of their their pups for 'discipline',

I guess that's punishment.

And it works.

When mama growls the pups know to back off or else;

and when mama puts a bone in the middle of the pups' play group, as enticing as that bone is, if its mama's they cant touch it or she will wallop them.

Subordinate dogs will also receive treatment similar to the above.

The dogs dont smack (obviously :laugh: ), but they certainly discipline by physical reprimand.

Exactly.

[cowanbree]

I have seen some things done to dogs at dog shows that I don't agree with but the only one I regret not doing more about was many years ago when I was competing in Tux Wonder dogs. One of the exercises was scent work where they had to go and get the toy the judge had touched so Test B level. The scene was on a river bank with lots of things to make it pretty for TV and cameras so a lot of the dogs that would normally do this exercise with ease were just totally confused.

One in particular was a top obedience exhibitor, his dog totally failed and had no idea what was wanted. After the exercise I was walking in the carpark where he thought he was alone and he was giving that dog an absolute hiding. This would be 20yrs ago now and I still remember it like it was yesterday. I did break it up and told him what I thought of him but I never reported him. I would today

[wherezaball]

I find it interesting that some people might say it is Ok to smack a dog in order for it to learn....yes it is learning through fear but in some cases it will still learn. Yet if their partners smacked or hit them to "teach them a lesson" it would be considered abuse?? If a woman is hit by her partner only once it is considered abuse and against the law.....yet it's Ok to do that to a dog??

We do need to use and can use punishment in dog training but it need not be physical or abusive? Punishment needs to fit the crime, be delivered at the time of the crime (just like a reward should be for stuff we like) then we move on and the punishment can be as simple as withholding a reward, isolation from us, a stern voice is often enough to interrupt a unwanted behaviour....

any punishment delivered after the crime is not effective and only destroys the relationship you have with your dog, the same goes if it is too harsh for the dog AND the situation...

I would imagine most incidences at trials etc are a result of the owner/handlers frustration... if so this is not punishment it is abuse...and no amount of trying to justify it as "punishment" will cut it.

[OSoSwift]

There is a vast difference between a tap ont eh bum and belting , flogging or laying into your dog. My Dobes favourite game was for you to chase her bum and smack it hard, loved it. Raise your voice and she went to water, had to be rather soft with her, but smack her bum - best. thing. ever!

[SkySoaringMagpie]

With the Beagles it would depend. It's not ideal but as they are a pack animal and often sleep all over each other, I'd consider other things as well - are they in the shade, are any of them in distress, etc. That said, at all shows, but particularly at shows were there are members of the public, I think it's a better idea to bring two crates or a bigger crate anyway.

Recently at a show in Canberra some members of the public came around to where we were set up with friends. It was cold, so the Whippets and Salukis were in coats, all the dogs were in their crates, and the comment was "wow, look how well set up they are in there". That's the impression I want people to go away with, not dogs packed into a tiny pen.

An option if you're not sure and/or you don't want to confront the exhibitor is to talk to the show manager. Ask who the show manager is at the office window/tent if you're not sure. Then you've transferred the responsibility for assessing the situation to them by alerting them to it. If they think it's no biggie, then that's their call.

[nawnim]

Thankyou SSM. Your reply is helpful. I agree it does create a bad impression on members of the general public just passing by, but I think it probably wasn't worth reporting. At that show I felt that some show people did not really treasure their beautiful dogs which made me sad, but that's me I guess. If the owners had been there I might have said something and then probably been abused, but I always speak up if I think an animal is being abused and is with its owner. I would definitely say something if I saw aomeone physically abusing a dog as in the opening post or as described in cowanbree's post.

[melzawelza]

I find it interesting that some people might say it is Ok to smack a dog in order for it to learn....yes it is learning through fear but in some cases it will still learn. Yet if their partners smacked or hit them to "teach them a lesson" it would be considered abuse?? If a woman is hit by her partner only once it is considered abuse and against the law.....yet it's Ok to do that to a dog??

We do need to use and can use punishment in dog training but it need not be physical or abusive? Punishment needs to fit the crime, be delivered at the time of the crime (just like a reward should be for stuff we like) then we move on and the punishment can be as simple as withholding a reward, isolation from us, a stern voice is often enough to interrupt a unwanted behaviour....

any punishment delivered after the crime is not effective and only destroys the relationship you have with your dog, the same goes if it is too harsh for the dog AND the situation...

I would imagine most incidences at trials etc are a result of the owner/handlers frustration... if so this is not punishment it is abuse...and no amount of trying to justify it as "punishment" will cut it.

No one is saying belting a dog out of frustration is ok.

But the idea that a dog will never understand a smack or it will never work is incorrect.

There is a difference between taking your dog out the back after a show and laying into it, and a short, sharp smack on the rump when you catch the dog with their head in the kitty litter. The latter, if timed correctly WILL punish the behaviour and the dog will associate it with the behaviour you want to deter. The smack doesn't hurt more than discomfort, and serves much more to startle the dog than anything else.

Like I said, I'm not promoting smacking as a be all and end all, it's only really useful in a very small amount of situations, but I disagreed with the notion that a dog will never understand a smack or learn from it, no matter what the scenario.

[nawnim]

I find it interesting that some people might say it is Ok to smack a dog in order for it to learn....yes it is learning through fear but in some cases it will still learn. Yet if their partners smacked or hit them to "teach them a lesson" it would be considered abuse?? If a woman is hit by her partner only once it is considered abuse and against the law.....yet it's Ok to do that to a dog??

We do need to use and can use punishment in dog training but it need not be physical or abusive? Punishment needs to fit the crime, be delivered at the time of the crime (just like a reward should be for stuff we like) then we move on and the punishment can be as simple as withholding a reward, isolation from us, a stern voice is often enough to interrupt a unwanted behaviour....

any punishment delivered after the crime is not effective and only destroys the relationship you have with your dog, the same goes if it is too harsh for the dog AND the situation...

I would imagine most incidences at trials etc are a result of the owner/handlers frustration... if so this is not punishment it is abuse...and no amount of trying to justify it as "punishment" will cut it.

No one is saying belting a dog out of frustration is ok.

But the idea that a dog will never understand a smack or it will never work is incorrect.

There is a difference between taking your dog out the back after a show and laying into it, and a short, sharp smack on the rump when you catch the dog with their head in the kitty litter. The latter, if timed correctly WILL punish the behaviour and the dog will associate it with the behaviour you want to deter. The smack doesn't hurt more than discomfort, and serves much more to startle the dog than anything else.

Like I said, I'm not promoting smacking as a be all and end all, it's only really useful in a very small amount of situations, but I disagreed with the notion that a dog will never understand a smack or learn from it, no matter what the scenario.

All dogs are different. Some have very soft temperaments while others are tougher.

Catching a dog in the act and delivering a smart reprimand (whatever that may be) can be very effective. A swift tap on the rump with a verbal reprimand when a dog has its head in the rubbish bin can stop the undesirable behaviour with some dogs. Others just need the verbal reprimand. A wise owner knows the difference.

[wherezaball]

I find it interesting that some people might say it is Ok to smack a dog in order for it to learn....yes it is learning through fear but in some cases it will still learn. Yet if their partners smacked or hit them to "teach them a lesson" it would be considered abuse?? If a woman is hit by her partner only once it is considered abuse and against the law.....yet it's Ok to do that to a dog??

We do need to use and can use punishment in dog training but it need not be physical or abusive? Punishment needs to fit the crime, be delivered at the time of the crime (just like a reward should be for stuff we like) then we move on and the punishment can be as simple as withholding a reward, isolation from us, a stern voice is often enough to interrupt a unwanted behaviour....

any punishment delivered after the crime is not effective and only destroys the relationship you have with your dog, the same goes if it is too harsh for the dog AND the situation...

I would imagine most incidences at trials etc are a result of the owner/handlers frustration... if so this is not punishment it is abuse...and no amount of trying to justify it as "punishment" will cut it.

No one is saying belting a dog out of frustration is ok.

But the idea that a dog will never understand a smack or it will never work is incorrect.

There is a difference between taking your dog out the back after a show and laying into it, and a short, sharp smack on the rump when you catch the dog with their head in the kitty litter. The latter, if timed correctly WILL punish the behaviour and the dog will associate it with the behaviour you want to deter. The smack doesn't hurt more than discomfort, and serves much more to startle the dog than anything else.

Like I said, I'm not promoting smacking as a be all and end all, it's only really useful in a very small amount of situations, but I disagreed with the notion that a dog will never understand a smack or learn from it, no matter what the scenario.

I'm not disagreeing with you. i also said some dogs will learn via punishment using as you say "a short, sharp smack on the rump" they through fear but they may still learn. In the kitty litter example a stern voice would be just as useful to have the startle affect. either would be effective for some dogs...others dogs may just learn not to do it when you are around as the motivation is too strong to raid the litter tray or the bin....scavenging is normal dog behaviour after all.

I think the original post was more about incidents at trials and dogs being punished inappropriately.... not a tap/smack on the bum for eating kitty crumbed sausages in the litter tray. Any physical punishment or handling of a dog at a trial in public land is not acceptable from the dogs welfare and the image of the sport. Regardless of how minor others may think the punishment was, incidents should be reported to have the message to all competitors it is not acceptable. What people do in their own homes is up to them but they should be more careful when out and about.

[Salukifan]

Once at a purebred dog show I saw what I considered to be cruelty but I am not sure whether others would agree, and I'm also not sure whether it is off topic.

I saw three beagles in a wire crate big enough for one. One dog was actually sitting on top of the other two. Presumably they had been in this situation for some time and the people around were aware. I said nothing mainly because there was no-one with the dogs. Also because I was too chicken. I have often thought about it since and wished I had said something.

Is this sort of thing normal at dog shows? And is it okay?

The fact that some dogs will tolerate the lack of space and the close confines doesn't mean they should have to.

If (as I have seen more than once) a scuffle breaks out in a packed crate or trolley, then it can be damn difficult to get dogs out and sort it quickly. And afterwards, there's no option to keep separate if the exhibitor has only the one crate.

Rates with uncoated dogs like Whippets shivering in crates in really cold weather as a pet peeve of mine.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Haredown Whippets