Steve Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 They must have been able to prove the parent which has been stated as the sire isn't in order for them to be able to take any action at all and as far as I know if you have the DNA of the supposed sire you can say whether he is or is not the father regardless of breed or species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I suppose that those involved in the breed know who has these dogs and can choose not to use one as sire or get one of the pups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 agreed Liz, and its not just the people in one breed, wether they be passionate or disinterested in this particular chain of events. It opens the doors to every ANKC breed registered in VIC. If a precedent is set, what's to stop other breeds falling to the same issue ? fifi ETA: just to note, I'm expressing my personal opinion, I havn't been one of those working / campaigning, there have been many others doing the hard yards - but I feel it has importance in terms of the corruption of pedigrees / breeding. It closes doors also. So while you want to campaign to stop blanks being used and confining dogs to short life spans ... we with giant breeds who do live into their teens, because of a diverse gene pool - very much utilise and require blanks ie dogs imported from country of origin and given pedigree by International Kennel Reg/Body. I understand that there was an issue with that particular wolfhound registration, but why should it become an allbreed issue. While ANKC accept dogs with blanks in their pedigrees, we are breeding better dogs for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I suppose that those involved in the breed know who has these dogs and can choose not to use one as sire or get one of the pups. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 oh well, here I was thinking that trusted pedigrees and breed integrity were important fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 oh well, here I was thinking that trusted pedigrees and breed integrity were important fifi And they are. I think that this devalues pedigrees entirely. But if enough people who care about the breed simply do not use a dog with blanks in its pedigree, those owners will get the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Fifi I hv been told that Wolfhounds dont DNA test clearly anyway?? If so testing is not going to help? Meea Not heard that before Meea, I only mean purebred parantage recording for pedigrees and import / export, not testing for x-breeding. I'd love more info on this if you have it. fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) oh well, here I was thinking that trusted pedigrees and breed integrity were important fifi They are. But you want to effect ANKC / All breed change on the basis that blanks in pedigrees ruin breed integrity. Dogs Vic want to use blanks as a registration tool to remedy the wolfhound problem - but pedigree blanks themselves are not the problem. The problem was created by a wolfhound breeder who falsified breeding records. If you want to protect wolfhound breed integrity, then petition for sire /dam dna testing. Edited July 2, 2012 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) Fifi Only that the folk who show in Sydney (30+ years in the breed) have often said this in passing. From memory they say ut will still show the mix from the breed recreation. These are folk I would think know what they are on about but I dont have anything factual. If you havent heard it then maybe there is more to it?? Enquiring minds and all that. Meea Edited July 2, 2012 by Meea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Meea, they might be talking about the DNA testing for X-breeding. I'm only talking about DNA recording for pedigrees, as is done with import / export. fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Meea, they might be talking about the DNA testing for X-breeding. I'm only talking about DNA recording for pedigrees, as is done with import / export. fifi Quite possibly. I have been thinking on it and it would have come up where someone has DNA tested a rescue and the result proudly lists wolfie. Cue rolley eyed man and polite snorting. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I don't see why there is a huge problem although I believe that the pedigree should read 'unknown dog' rather than being left blank . Don't breed with or buy a dog unless you are happy with its pedigree. This could have been avoided with DNA testing of all breeding animals. If nobody wants to pay for reliable testing of all registered breeding animals then you have to accept that the pedigrees might be unreliable . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I see the problem really being the length if time it has taken DogsVic to get to this point. 5,6,7 years since this came to their attention?? That is a lot of pups to unsuspecting buyers. Some sort of wide ranging information earlier on to help buyers might have lessened the pain. Mind you - it is likely the more niave puppy buyer who gets caught in this sort of thing. Cue reg breeder negative press again. If we cant help ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roseclipt Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 After WWII, when Germany was pretty well destroyed, the German Great Dane breeders over there rounded up any dog resembling a Dane that they could find. These went before a panel of experts, and if they were considered to be a purebred, they were entered in the Stud Books as "findling" - foundling. You can still see these entries today if you have the Stud Books, and I wouldn't be surprised if this were true for quite a number of breeds. I would presume the Wolfhound breeders know what to avoid, and will breed accordingly. :) Cheers, Lesley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinsella Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 This is not an issue of opening stud books with ANKC approval or importing dogs from COO with holes in the history but a blatant case of mishandling, deception and naive puppy buyers not getting what they have paid for. Almost every IW breeder I know has taken care with pedigrees and lines to avoid hereditary health issues and these dogs represent a risk in breeding where nothing is known of the dog in question. The real problem I see is that these dogs are now at the stage of the blanks not showing up in the next generation's pedigrees as this has been a problem of over 5 years duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 This is not an issue of opening stud books with ANKC approval or importing dogs from COO with holes in the history but a blatant case of mishandling, deception and naive puppy buyers not getting what they have paid for. Almost every IW breeder I know has taken care with pedigrees and lines to avoid hereditary health issues and these dogs represent a risk in breeding where nothing is known of the dog in question. The real problem I see is that these dogs are now at the stage of the blanks not showing up in the next generation's pedigrees as this has been a problem of over 5 years duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 This! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsaremyworld Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 In the article in Dog News on this issues, I am sure that they said that they had tried to use DNA testing to clear up the issue on whether a cross-breed had been used further back in the lines, but the results were 'inconclusive'. I just feel sorry for all the people out there who bought pups on 'main register' IN THIS CASE, relying on the falsified information given to them by one man, only to find out that the parentage is in reality, not known, and most likely from an 'unregistered' dog. Imagine if they were thier foundation stock, investing that money, only to find that any progeny down the lines will forever be known as the ones with blank pedigrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 After WWII, when Germany was pretty well destroyed, the German Great Dane breeders over there rounded up any dog resembling a Dane that they could find. These went before a panel of experts, and if they were considered to be a purebred, they were entered in the Stud Books as "findling" - foundling. You can still see these entries today if you have the Stud Books, and I wouldn't be surprised if this were true for quite a number of breeds. I would presume the Wolfhound breeders know what to avoid, and will breed accordingly. :) Cheers, Lesley. I believe this is quite acceptable in saving a breed from near extention and I would say there are valid and extenuating circumstances. Kind of like in my breed the Cavlier King Charles Spaniel, that was brought back from the brink of extinction, many say other breeds such as Papillion and Sheltand sheep dogs were used in this endeavour. Certainly anything that resembled the "Old type King Charles Spaniel" was used to resurrect the breed. There would be many valid reasons for opening up a stud book but I don't think it should be used to cover up poor management and fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 In the article in Dog News on this issues, I am sure that they said that they had tried to use DNA testing to clear up the issue on whether a cross-breed had been used further back in the lines, but the results were 'inconclusive'. I just feel sorry for all the people out there who bought pups on 'main register' IN THIS CASE, relying on the falsified information given to them by one man, only to find out that the parentage is in reality, not known, and most likely from an 'unregistered' dog. Imagine if they were thier foundation stock, investing that money, only to find that any progeny down the lines will forever be known as the ones with blank pedigrees. Yes, the DNA tests to determine "true breed" of a dog is often inconclusive (I know of a Cavalier King CHarles Spaniel that tests came back as a Doberman). That is why Parentage DNA testing, which is reliable, should have been used at the time of the inquiry. Really, at this late stage they don't have many options other than "black spaces", although I do like the suggestion one Doler made , in having it state "Dog unknown". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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