Handling System?

[Seita]

Ok so it's been forever since I did agility and sooo much has changed. I did a beginners course last year and have been tagging along to a local agility club this year in their novice sort of level class. It is becoming apparent that I need to learn how to be the best handler for my dog and I've heard all this talk about handling systems but haven't got a clue what that actually means!! Could someone please explain in simple terms what this means and how some of the main ones compare to each other?

Thanks heaps!! :D

[J...]

In a nutshell a handling system is a method of training and handling which is consistent and makes sense to the dog (and the handler!).

Main methods you will mostly hear about is Greg Derrett and Linda Mecklenburg, Silvia Trkman kind of has a method all her own, other big name handlers follow these methods to varying levels (Daisy Peel handles using LM for example, Susan Garrett is based on GD).

In the end you pick whichever style makes sense to you - I tend to follow GD guidelines but am a bit of a rule bender when I have to be . I can't comment if any of them are better or worse than the others simply because I don't understand any of the other methods enough to make a judgement call.

I do really like some of the stuff I'm seeing in a friend's ST work, and I'll probably add some of that work into what I'm already doing as far as jumping foundation, but it hasn't convinced me to totally change camps just yet :laugh:

[Luke W]

It seems most of the clubs in Melbourne use the GD system.

[canine fun sports]

It seems most of the clubs in Melbourne use the GD system.

There are a few "labels" for certain handling systems.

I am not a Greg Derrett advocate. In my eyes, he gives a set or artificial rules (artificial in the sense that the dog has to learn that there are things he is not allowed to do, and he does not know it intuitively). One example is that Greg Derrett does not allow his dogs to spin around and jump a jump from the opposite direction (back jump). My dogs understand clear signals about when to back jump and when to wrap. This gives me a very useful tool to use during a gamblers class when a backjump can give me an extra point or two without adding extra metres to travel.

Linda Mecklenberg's system does not have a set of rules, but rather a set of tools and advice on how to use them, but always with the emphasis that you need to use the correct balance of tools for your individual dog. Some dogs react more to movement, others to verbal, others to the use of arms etc etc.

Personally, I lean strongly toward the Linda Mecklenberg system, with a few of my own tools added in. I teach these tools, and give advice on how each handler and dog team can best balance their own communication system.

I find the system I use based on Linda Mecklenberg (as taught by Ronda Carter) and other influences allows me to give the dog very early information on where the course goes next, thus creating a smoother run with less wear and tear on my dogs joints; it allows me to compete fully on all courses and maximises my chances on all open and gamblers courses.

If you want a little bit of information about the way we teach agility, just go to the website and click on the button about information for the serious agility trainer (or a title something like that) on the home page.

My advice is to not get caught up in the "systems" argument. If you go to a club where they advocate a system, and they are telling you that you are not allowed to handle your dog in a certain way because it is 'against their system" my reply would be "my dog does not know your system" and I think I can effectively communicate with my dog this way.

[J...]

One example is that Greg Derrett does not allow his dogs to spin around and jump a jump from the opposite direction (back jump).

You're talking taking the back of a jump instead of the front? Then yes he does, it's referred to as driving to the refusal plane of a jump as opposed to the active plane.

[canine fun sports]

One example is that Greg Derrett does not allow his dogs to spin around and jump a jump from the opposite direction (back jump).

You're talking taking the back of a jump instead of the front? Then yes he does, it's referred to as driving to the refusal plane of a jump as opposed to the active plane.

No, I am not talking about sending the dog around the jump.

I mean that I take the jump in one direction (or tyre, or whatever) then signal the dog to turn one handred and eight degrees and take the jump in the opposite direction. This would not be seen in normal agility because there must be a minimum of 2 to 4 metres between obstaces (depending on the size of the dog) It is, however, a very useful manoeuvre to score extra points in gamblers. I am talking ANKC rules here, not ADAA.

Cheers,

Iedited to correct spelling)

Edited June 25, 2012 by canine fun sports

[J...]

Now I understand what you're saying.

GDs handling system is a set of guidelines, that's it. I have yet to see anyone out there implementing any handling system perfectly yet I see and hear so many commenting on "you can't do that under GD".

Both my dogs are quite capable of back jumping a jump as you describe despite my handling being based around GD. Take a look at Darcy's Top Dog Jumping run last year and you'll see the biggest motherflicker of all time to get the tunnel discrimination at speed plus a blind cross in the tunnel.

Guidelines, not rules set in concrete to be smited by the agility gods every time you think about "breaking a rule" :laugh:

[Vickie]

As others have said, a handling system is a set of rules or guidelines to ensure you are providing consistent cues to your dog.

Some examples of the system I use say to my dog

If I am running beside you, keep taking the obstacles in front

If I am running & raise the arm on the opposite side of my dog, collect & prepare for a turn towards me

If I turn towards into my dog, I want them to turn towards meEtc

As far as how to choose a handling system...there are some top handlers and instructors implementing each of the main systems.QLD mostly use the Greg Derrett system, so if I were you, that is probably the one I would choose, simply because it will be more accessible to you. The main thing is to pick someone who is successful with their own dogs to learn it from.

If you are serious about agility, I would take private lessons to start, rather than club classes. Then when you have a system in place you can train at a club.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Vickie

[Kavik]

IMO the only thing that makes it difficult, is that if you decide you want to handle one way and the club teaches another. Not because they won't let you do it - simply saying you are using another handling system should be enough, I don't know any club that would have a problem with that, but that it is more difficult for them to help you as they may not know the other handling method well enough to help when you get stuck using a manouvre that is different to the system they use.

I use GD handling guidelines, partly because it is what the clubs predominantly teach and also because there are lots of independent resources available (though I notice there are Linda Mecklenberg DVDs out now too). Certainly I should get the whole range of the GD handling DVDs as there is a lot I still don't know very well :laugh:

[Seita]

Ahhh everything makes a whole lot more sense now! Now I understand why when my dog does something that I didn't want, the instructors tell me that I did "such and such" wrong. I must have missed the part where my club teaches the handling guidelines as I just keep getting frustrated and confused when I'm always being told that I am doing things wrong!

I think obedience is easier! So much less going on to think about LOL. Thanks so much for your replies, now I need to learn the guidelines and teach them to my dog!

[Tassie]

What a great set of posts. I'm another substantially GD wannabe handler - but mainly because as an older person who is also an unfit, unco klutz, it made more sense to me than what I could read of LM (also referred to as Awesome Paws I think), and I had the chance to take some lessons and attend GD workshops. (I think had I been in a position to attend Ronda Carter workshops or Daisy Peel, I might have a different view.

I fugred if the system made sense to me, then I would be able to use it more effectively with the feral one, and that's been the case.

What's true is that the GD system was not designed for agility games, so therefore might be less useful if you do a lot of games (as CFS points out).

As Jess. has pointed out, GD (and probably others) is a set of guidelines. You can choose to do different things like layering or blind crosses or round the back finishes in ob or rally - all he points out is that it could weaken the effectiveness of cues - but it's always left to the handlers to make those choices.

To me one of the nice things about the existence of handling systems, is that it makes handlers like me more aware of the need for consistency. :)

[canine fun sports]

As Jess. has pointed out, GD (and probably others) is a set of guidelines. You can choose to do different things like layering or blind crosses or round the back finishes in ob or rally - all he points out is that it could weaken the effectiveness of cues - but it's always left to the handlers to make those choices.

I doubt this statement. The dogs respond to a compbination of cues, and I do not think they are likely to understand a black and white "you should always do this and never do that". They live with us and learn our inconsitent body language just hanging around with us.

Dogs flip away from us occasionally when we mean them to turn toward us because they have learnt that if they do not get out of the way, we smetimes tread on them as we walk toward them. Life is when the "inconsistent cues" are learnt. Life has taught different things to different dogs, so that is why no one particulr set of cues will work with every dog.

I like a hndling system that evelops what my dog already knows, rather than trying to superimpose a new set of rules on them.

My dogs know my hand signals becasue that is the way I offer treats to them, or throw toys for them. They follow my movement because they know they are racing me to somewhere, They follow where my shoulders and feet are facing becasue they know I will trip over them, tread on their feet or knock them on the head if they don't. My 6 week old puppies are getting lots of those lessons at the moment.

Cheers, Le

[kelpiechick]

One example is that Greg Derrett does not allow his dogs to spin around and jump a jump from the opposite direction (back jump).

You're talking taking the back of a jump instead of the front? Then yes he does, it's referred to as driving to the refusal plane of a jump as opposed to the active plane.

No, I am not talking about sending the dog around the jump.

I mean that I take the jump in one direction (or tyre, or whatever) then signal the dog to turn one handred and eight degrees and take the jump in the opposite direction. This would not be seen in normal agility because there must be a minimum of 2 to 4 metres between obstaces (depending on the size of the dog) It is, however, a very useful manoeuvre to score extra points in gamblers. I am talking ANKC rules here, not ADAA.

Not strictly anti-Derrett. I do this in gamblers all the time after weaves and contacts and I run Derrett (or try to anyway) Would totally depend on your position in relation to the dog and would in many cases be similar to a front cross on the flat which is trained in outside circle work with GD.

The more I see of 'systems' the more I think it is related to a left side/right side of the brain thing. One will make perfect sense to someone and not to someone else, and vice versa. You should handle your dog in a way that sits right with you, not in a way that someone else tells you to - and unfortunately most of us confuse our first dog because we have to experiment to find out what suits to begin with :laugh: My older trialling dog is my 'crossover' dog - trained in one 'system' and changed over to another at 5 years of age, I sometimes wonder how he has coped as well as he has.