melzawelza Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 At least you'd know the dog had made it to 11 still fit enough to sire a litter, better than using a young dog that developed health issues later in life. Yep, In fact I remember someone saying that at a seminar I went to years ago. Talking about some breeds in the US and popular sire syndrome - everyone using an imported dog young and the dog and his progeny going on to have hassles as they aged and it being near impossible to find lines clear of that dog 5 years down the track. They went on to say that they think it better to only use them a few times while young and then when they reach double figures if they are healthy and able to do the deed. and the progeny from the litters they sired when they were young are healthy then they are a good contributor to the gene pool so let them be used a few more times. Makes sense to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 At least you'd know the dog had made it to 11 still fit enough to sire a litter, better than using a young dog that developed health issues later in life. Yep, In fact I remember someone saying that at a seminar I went to years ago. Talking about some breeds in the US and popular sire syndrome - everyone using an imported dog young and the dog and his progeny going on to have hassles as they aged and it being near impossible to find lines clear of that dog 5 years down the track. They went on to say that they think it better to only use them a few times while young and then when they reach double figures if they are healthy and able to do the deed. and the progeny from the litters they sired when they were young are healthy then they are a good contributor to the gene pool so let them be used a few more times. Definately agree and something i think about often. It was 1 of those things that really sat with me and I couldn't tell you much else from the weekend but I have always remembered that. Basically it was expanded on saying a dog should have no more contribution then a bitch would during the same time frame (and I think they said 2 to 7 years of age as average breeding ages for most breeds). At the point where you would retire a bitch from breeding, the dog should be left to continue to enjoy his life while you wait and see. By the time he is 10 you should have some 5 or so year old progeny to evaluate, as well as the health of the dog itself and if all of that is fine then use him a few more times. I know I can definitely think of examples where a dog has been used prolifically only for problems to turn up in the progeny at 2 to 3 years of age by which stage there are already another dozen litters on the ground. Very interesting - thanks for posting. Some really good thoughts. My Springer is not yet 2 and I recently met her 13 year old sire. Deaf as a post but otherwise looks and moves really well. I was very impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 My toy poodle is 10. Still siring litters. All is well & his sperm count last year was fine Guess it does depend on the individual dog but age is not always a barrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 It isn't unusual for BCs to still be siring litters at 12-14. A lot depends on the lifespan of the breed. Many giant breeds wouldn't even make it to that age and are considered old at 8, so it is all relative. At the other end of the scale the most precocious breed I have heard of are Belgians and I know of two cases where 4 month old puppies have mated with their mothers. Both bitches were given mismating injections so I don't know if they were fertile but most breeds are fertile by 6-7 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 my girl was sired by an 11 1/2 year old - his last time at stud. He is still kicking on - he's just over 15 years old now - and for a breed that normally makes it to 12 - 14 years of age - he is doing very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meea Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Mammals! Geriatric old men dont seem to have a problem. They just need to be rich or famous enough to have the young wife :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda K Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 would have thought that by the time they were 11, if they had not already produced a son who was better than them in quality and to the standard, which is surely what breeders are aiming to, then I would not have been continuing to use that line. Think this is something that in Vic will also be addressed under the breeding cats and dogs regulaions, that animals that old can either only be used after a vet letter okaying them, or that they have to be retired at a certain age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Wow, you learn something new every day! I thought that would have been too old. Not for Anatolian :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I prefer using older dogs, because I know what they are (they won't change like puppies - they're set!), I normally know what they will produce, and it gives me an indication of the fitness and health of the dog. I also know how many times they will be used at stud in their lives (to use a young dog, we can only guess his prolificness as a sire.) My last litter was sired by a 10 year old dog that had only been used at stud about three times previously. My next litter will be from an 8 year old stud dog that has no offspring on the ground (we're getting his semen tested first), and my next litter after that is probably going to be a 7 year old dog who, again, only has a couple of litters on the ground. To me, it makes sense to use fit, healthy, old dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 would have thought that by the time they were 11, if they had not already produced a son who was better than them in quality and to the standard, which is surely what breeders are aiming to, then I would not have been continuing to use that line. Think this is something that in Vic will also be addressed under the breeding cats and dogs regulaions, that animals that old can either only be used after a vet letter okaying them, or that they have to be retired at a certain age. Wow. Why would you not want to use a dog that had proved its genetic fitness and outstanding exhibit of mother nature. Wonder why dogs life spans get shorter and shorter? because breeding is done by bureaucrats who think they know best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 would have thought that by the time they were 11, if they had not already produced a son who was better than them in quality and to the standard, which is surely what breeders are aiming to, then I would not have been continuing to use that line. Think this is something that in Vic will also be addressed under the breeding cats and dogs regulaions, that animals that old can either only be used after a vet letter okaying them, or that they have to be retired at a certain age. Or you choose to use him as he is fit and healthy and so are his progeny - a testament to the quality of the dog and his ability to pass this on. Or in the case of my girl's sire he had not been used younger as his sire was a confirmed carrier of a fatal condition. At the time the only way to know if a dog carried the condition was when their offspring died at about 2 years of age, as his sire was found to be a carrier the breeder did not use him. Then in his later years a DNA test became available and he was found to be clear so could safely be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 would have thought that by the time they were 11, if they had not already produced a son who was better than them in quality and to the standard, which is surely what breeders are aiming to, then I would not have been continuing to use that line. Think this is something that in Vic will also be addressed under the breeding cats and dogs regulaions, that animals that old can either only be used after a vet letter okaying them, or that they have to be retired at a certain age. Wow. Why would you not want to use a dog that had proved its genetic fitness and outstanding exhibit of mother nature. Wonder why dogs life spans get shorter and shorter? because breeding is done by bureaucrats who think they know best. +1 :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 would have thought that by the time they were 11, if they had not already produced a son who was better than them in quality and to the standard, which is surely what breeders are aiming to, then I would not have been continuing to use that line. Think this is something that in Vic will also be addressed under the breeding cats and dogs regulaions, that animals that old can either only be used after a vet letter okaying them, or that they have to be retired at a certain age. Wow. Why would you not want to use a dog that had proved its genetic fitness and outstanding exhibit of mother nature. Wonder why dogs life spans get shorter and shorter? because breeding is done by bureaucrats who think they know best. +1 :thumbsup: +2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) would have thought that by the time they were 11, if they had not already produced a son who was better than them in quality and to the standard, which is surely what breeders are aiming to, then I would not have been continuing to use that line. Think this is something that in Vic will also be addressed under the breeding cats and dogs regulaions, that animals that old can either only be used after a vet letter okaying them, or that they have to be retired at a certain age. not in a breed like mine where they may only sire one or two litters at the most. Unless I get a request from overseas for semen my boy won't be used until he is around 8! He will be collected before then though. ETA the sire of my boy was around 8 and 1/2 and this was his first, and to date, only litter. Edited June 27, 2012 by Rebanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Why would you use a son If the outstanding father was available??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 There was a popular greyhound sire a few years back that died of cancer when he was five. Guess what he passed on to many of his progeny? I would agree that an older stud who has proved that he is a healthy long-lived dog and has proven he can throw good puppies is not as risky as using a younger stud. Dogs are only around for fifteen years or so, so it makes sense to breed from good ones while the opportunity is still there. The progeny will still be around to use after the old boy has gone, if enough of them have been bred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda K Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 OK, learn something every day, guess I had not considered that aspect of using an older dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 would have thought that by the time they were 11, if they had not already produced a son who was better than them in quality and to the standard, which is surely what breeders are aiming to, then I would not have been continuing to use that line. Think this is something that in Vic will also be addressed under the breeding cats and dogs regulaions, that animals that old can either only be used after a vet letter okaying them, or that they have to be retired at a certain age. If this is addressed under the breeding of cats and dogs regs it would be a bloody disgrace and another example of how those who have no knowledge of breeding are prepared to completely over look the science of the species and interfere in something that they have no right to be involved in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle Mum Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Definitely depends on the individual. A couple of years ago I was going to use a 10 yr Std poodle I had bred to try & carry on the old bloodlines behind him with my current girl, but his sperm count was zilch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Thought provoking thread, thanks everyone - especially Piper. That model provides a puzzle piece I'd been looking for but hadn't considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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