Bsl Solution

[steamboat]

do you know of any Labs or GSD's who have done that and does anyone own any dogs of those breeds they would suspect could do the same if they got out?.

Wasn't that a labrador which went ballistic last year and attacked its owners ? Or was that a Golden Retriever.

More people die from shark attacks and are killed by horses than ever die from dog attacks. Go figure.

From memory.

Two brothers were fighting in the house & the dog bit one.

If sharks & horses were allowed to roam free amongst the general population I would imagine their stats would be much, much higher.

There were 36(?) fatal dog attacks in the U.S.A alone last year.

I don't know how many fatal horse attacks there were.

I would be surprised if it was more than 36 though.

I would be surprised if there were 36 fatal shark attacks also.

One sure way to prevent shark attacks is to stay out of oceans.

Edited October 19, 2012 by steamboat

[Wobbly]

do you know of any Labs or GSD's who have done that and does anyone own any dogs of those breeds they would suspect could do the same if they got out?.

Wasn't that a labrador which went ballistic last year and attacked its owners ? Or was that a Golden Retriever.

Labradors and Retrievers were always higher on the bite stat lists than APBT - before the bans, obviously, and now.

There was a fatal attack on a child by a Lab x Golden in South Carolina in April of this year. I'm not going to link it because I don't think it's correct to single out any breed. The problem is with individual dogs (or more correctly that individual dog's owner).

Labs & Goldens are only high on the bite stats list because they're such popular pets, given the huge population of both breeds there's bound to be more attacks by them. If the size of the labrador & golden retriever population were controlled for, then statistically they'd be no more or less dangerous than ANY other breed.

Fundamentally a dog is a dog is a dog. They all have teeth, they can all bite and if any breed turns on a child, it can all too easily and often be fatal.

[Aphra]

There were 31 fatal dog attacks in the US in 2011 out of a dog population of around 78 million. There were about 100 horse related deaths. About 7 million people ride horses. Clearly horses are a greater risk factor than dogs. In fact a proper calculation would take into account proximity and temporality as well; horses don't tend to live in our houses or wander our streets, so that in fact dogs have much greater proximity to humans for more of the time, but kill them less often than horses.

In Australia there have been 27 fatal dog attacks since 2000 and 77 horse related deaths in the same period.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Bees, swimming pools and hot water on the stove... cause more injuries to children than dogs.

I think bees and pools kill more too.

http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/journal/bees-the-sting-in-the-tale.htm

And quad bikes killed over 15 people last year.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/1e41688cb7c8b15dca2570ec0073d9e9!OpenDocument

Cars - we should ban all cars. Or all drivers. Or both.

[steamboat]

There were 31 fatal dog attacks in the US in 2011 out of a dog population of around 78 million. There were about 100 horse related deaths. About 7 million people ride horses. Clearly horses are a greater risk factor than dogs. In fact a proper calculation would take into account proximity and temporality as well; horses don't tend to live in our houses or wander our streets, so that in fact dogs have much greater proximity to humans for more of the time, but kill them less often than horses.

In Australia there have been 27 fatal dog attacks since 2000 and 77 horse related deaths in the same period.

How many of the fatalities attributed to horse where the result of unprovoked attacks I wonder?

Similarly, I wonder how many of the dog fatalities were the result of people falling off their dogs backs?

Slilly questions?

Certainly.

Because a it's silly analogy.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

how many dog attacks are "unprovoked"?

we're talking about banning something because it's connected to human fatalities without looking at why. Eg Silly (dangerous) owners.

Or how likely - not very.

[BlackJaq]

Well, this certainly sounds unprovoked, let's add Pomeranians to the restricted list:

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/oct/09/local/me-34015

Also, personally, I have been chased and even attacked by way more cattle dogs who were not safely confined to their owners' properties than any other dog breed. That may be because many, many people around here have cattle dogs. Or maybe because cattle dogs are really "landsharks" or maybe I was wearing a ham sandwich outfit each time....

I don't think I have EVER been threatened by a bully breed before. And we have LOTS of them around here, too. Possibly even more than cattle dogs.

Edited October 25, 2012 by BlackJaq

[steamboat]

how many dog attacks are "unprovoked"?

we're talking about banning something because it's connected to human fatalities without looking at why. Eg Silly (dangerous) owners.

Or how likely - not very.

I really don't understand what you trying to get at here.

How many dog attacks are unprovoked?

I don't know.

99% maybe? - certainly more than 95% i'd reckon.

I don't see how horse riding accidents & shark attacks have anything to do with BSL.

[BlackJaq]

What constitutes an "unprovoked" attack in your book?

One where a person does not intend for the dog to attack them? In that case, yes, you are probably right, most people wouldn't want to be attacked.

However, there is usually a reason for a dog attack. Whether you think the reason sufficient or not is beside the point. A dog may simply turn its aggression against a nearby person because it is in pain and does not know how to stop being in pain. Or else the dog may not have been socialized and does not realize that it is causing pain to a human by biting. My dogs bite each other all the time and their coat usually stops them from being harmed. If they bit me with the same force I would probably bleed. HOWEVER I have taught my dogs that I feel their teeth much more than another dog would. Not all dogs have been lucky enough to receive bite inhibition training or even training on how to play with humans without hurting them.

Frustration can be another reason. A dog that is chained all the time, constantly lurching into the end of the chain may become overwhelmed when it is finally free of the chain. They call that "chain mad" around here and it is a common thing. People and even neighbourhood cats know not to go near those kind of dogs, no matter the breed.

Children especially can be susceptible to becoming victims of the prey drive of some dogs. This dog may not be aggressive at all, but smply trying to catch and hold the "prey". One tooth placed in the right spot can be enough to kill a child, no matter the breed or intention of the dog.

Anyway, my point is, there are countless reasons for a dog to bite, and somebody not very knowledgeable (not saying you are not.. but you might not be, judging by your posts) may not be able to tell why the dog acted the way it did and this will then be labelled an unprovoked attack, even though the dog has, technically, been provoked, generally through no fault of the victim.

Edited October 25, 2012 by BlackJaq

[steamboat]

What constitutes an "unprovoked" attack in your book?

Anyway, my point is, there are countless reasons for a dog to bite, and somebody not very knowledgeable (not saying you are not.. but you might not be, judging by your posts) may not be able to tell why the dog acted the way it did and this will then be labelled an unprovoked attack, even though the dog has, technically, been provoked, generally through no fault of the victim.

hahahaha.

"Not very knowledgable" eh?

What an arrogant thing to assume?

Typical though unfortunately, but I'm sure that comment will earn some brownie points from the rest of the poseurs.

If you ever take the time to actually read, think about & comprehend my comments you may, just may, actually learn something. Then again, maybe not.

Anyhow,

An unprovoked attack?.

Suggest you look up "unprovoked" & "attack" in your Funk & Wagnells.

[BlackJaq]

You have not answered the question :)

What do YOU think is an unprovoked attack?

Edited October 25, 2012 by BlackJaq

[steamboat]

You have not answered the question :)

What do YOU think is an unprovoked attack?

Unprovoked...without reason.

Attack..to physically assault someone/thing with force.

Unprovoke attack..to use force against someone/thing without reason.

Most dog attacks are unprovoked attacks.

A dog mouthing while playing is not an attack.

A dog biting when injured & in pain against pressure applied is not unprovoked.

Did you learn anything?

[Kavik]

Young kids are at the top of bite stats - and normally it is the family dog or a dog the child knows. Sometimes it involves food, or the dog being startled, or hurt by the child. These are not unprovoked attacks. There is a reason.

[BlackJaq]

Unprovoked...without reason.

Attack..to physically assault someone/thing with force.

Unprovoke attack..to use force against someone/thing without reason.

Most dog attacks are unprovoked attacks.

A dog mouthing while playing is not an attack.

A dog biting when injured & in pain against pressure applied is not unprovoked.

Did you learn anything?

Why is a dog mouthing not an attack? Mouthing can be quite forceful and a dog can bite hard in play and without aggression.

The dog that killed Ayen Chol had severe pressure sores that were ulcerated, according to the coroner's report. This means the dog was in pain. So, according to your definitions, the dog did NOT launch an unprovoked attack?

Most dog attacks are unprovoked attacks.

I think this is very untrue. I just explained in one of my previous posts how a dog can "attack" (i.e. physically assault someone/thing with force) for various reasons and people might not be knowledgeable enough to understand why, that does not mean that there is no reason (i.e. provocation) and I listed several common reasons.

Where do you get the information that most dog attacks are unprovoked attacks? Is it because they do not commonly list any reason other than breed in media coverage?

Edited October 25, 2012 by BlackJaq

[steamboat]

Unprovoked...without reason.

Attack..to physically assault someone/thing with force.

Unprovoke attack..to use force against someone/thing without reason.

Most dog attacks are unprovoked attacks.

A dog mouthing while playing is not an attack.

A dog biting when injured & in pain against pressure applied is not unprovoked.

Did you learn anything?

Why is a dog mouthing not an attack? Mouthing can be quite forceful and a dog can bite hard in play and without aggression.

The dog that killed Ayen Chol had severe pressure sores that were ulcerated, according to the coroner's report. This means the dog was in pain. So, according to your definitions, the dog did NOT launch an unprovoked attack?

Most dog attacks are unprovoked attacks.

I think this is very untrue. I just explained in one of my previous posts how a dog can "attack" (i.e. physically assault someone/thing with force) for various reasons and people might not be knowledgeable enough to understand why, that does not mean that there is no reason (i.e. provocation) and I listed several common reasons.

Where do you get the information that most dog attacks are unprovoked attacks? Is it because they do not commonly list any reason other than breed in media coverage?

Sigh....

It's like talking to a brickwall.

The chol attack was unprovoke. The family were actually fleeing from the dog, the dog followed them into the house & attacked the baby without provocation.

Fear biting is unprovoked. although whether they are attacking or defending is debatable.

Snapping a child that takes food, pulls ears or flops onto the dog is provoked.

Not knowing the difference between biting & mouthing is a measure of your inexperience. If you don't know your own dogs you certainly aren't ''qualified'' to give advice to anyone about their dogs or dogs in general.

I read your post.

All I learned from it is you don't know as much as you think you do..

Edited October 25, 2012 by steamboat

[Cat]

It's interesting how you insult people and are terribly condescending yet think everyone is ganging up on you like a lynch mob.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Cat

[steamboat]

It's interesting how you insult people and are terribly condescending yet think everyone is ganging up on you like a lynch mob.

Eye for eye.

But of course, you only have eye.

[Salukifan]

It's interesting how you insult people and are terribly condescending yet think everyone is ganging up on you like a lynch mob.

Eye for eye.

But of course, you only have eye.

One thread of goading people into responses not enough for you Steamboat?

Seriously folks, don't feed it.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

The chol attack was unprovoked. The family were actually fleeing from the dog, the dog followed them into the house & attacked the baby without provocation.

If they'd stood their ground and not run screaming - would the dog still have attacked. What happened before the dog attacked? Were the children standing in ground the dog regards as its territory? Were the children making a lot of high pitched squealy noises? Had the family (that got attacked) previously had any interaction with the dog - good or bad? Bad security, bad training. Bad owner.

But if the children had been able to remain calm (almost impossible I know) would they still have been attacked? I wasn't there. I don't know. I do know that banning a particular breed and not a particular kind of owner - won't help. And so I have little respect for what the Judge says on that.

Fear biting is unprovoked. although whether they are attacking or defending is debatable

Fear biting - usually happens after a series of warnings by the dog. Unless its been trained not to give any warning. So if I say "you're scaring me - back off" and you continue to approach - I will consider that provocation and I will attack with everything I've got if I think there is no other way to protect myself from someone who doesn't understand "no" means "no". I've yet to see a fear biter cross an oval to make an attack. If a dog does that - it's not a fear biter.

I have stopped a dog from aggressively rushing at me - just by turning side on to it and avoiding a direct gaze. I have no idea why it rushed me. Owner was most surprised. I was surprised he allowed it off lead. That dog - was a golden retriever. And I've seen them involved in several quite savage attacks. Usually over some resource.

[steamboat]

The chol attack was unprovoked. The family were actually fleeing from the dog, the dog followed them into the house & attacked the baby without provocation.

If they'd stood their ground and not run screaming - would the dog still have attacked. What happened before the dog attacked? Were the children standing in ground the dog regards as its territory? Were the children making a lot of high pitched squealy noises? Had the family (that got attacked) previously had any interaction with the dog - good or bad? Bad security, bad training. Bad owner.

But if the children had been able to remain calm (almost impossible I know) would they still have been attacked? I wasn't there. I don't know. I do know that banning a particular breed and not a particular kind of owner - won't help. And so I have little respect for what the Judge says on that.

Fear biting is unprovoked. although whether they are attacking or defending is debatable

Fear biting - usually happens after a series of warnings by the dog. Unless its been trained not to give any warning. So if I say "you're scaring me - back off" and you continue to approach - I will consider that provocation and I will attack with everything I've got if I think there is no other way to protect myself from someone who doesn't understand "no" means "no". I've yet to see a fear biter cross an oval to make an attack. If a dog does that - it's not a fear biter.

I have stopped a dog from aggressively rushing at me - just by turning side on to it and avoiding a direct gaze. I have no idea why it rushed me. Owner was most surprised. I was surprised he allowed it off lead. That dog - was a golden retriever. And I've seen them involved in several quite savage attacks. Usually over some resource.

Good grief, what a crock.

To be quite frank, the continued defence of attacking dogs by the posters to this forum is alarming & doesn't give their relentless protestations any credibility.

Why not just use the Devil made them do it defence?

Blaming the victims is really a ridiculous strategy if you are serious about having BSL repealed.

A family is so frightened by a large dog that encroaches on the THEIR property that they gather up their kids & retreat inside THEIR home. The dog follows them inside, attacks & kills their baby & it's their fault?

Give us a break.

Time to come into the real world.

Haredown Whippets.

Maybe you should read the sequence of posts to ascertain who is goading who.

I make a comment, I am questioned/challenged/ I answer, repeat, repeat. Next I am subjected to irrationally ridicule by irrational people.

Sooner or later, enough is enough. Give as good as you get.

Not ideal situation I agree.

But sometimes the whipping boy wields the whip.

Is there one rule for the clique & another for independant honest, informed opinion that doesn't suit aforementioned clique?

Your comment for e.g. has nothing to do with the topic & is blatant of the bias protectionism that is the root cause of any retaliation by it's victims.

You would do better to tidy up the source before you try to tidy up their mess.