Bsl Solution

[GeckoTree]

I think the activists mostly put up very valid arguments to which policy makers just can't seem to acknowledge, such as simply define a pit bull, it's been 21 years and they haven't come up with an answer yet.

[m-sass]

All that Australia has done with BSL is adopted other countries breed lists from around the world as most BSL breed lists globally are much the same. We would never know if BSL reduces bite statistics here unless we had the full range of restricted breeds in plentiful supply to determine the damage they caused if any. Having said that though, I would be confident to say that littel Ayen would still be alive if the owners of the dog who killed her had a Standard Poodle, Labrador or GSD instead of the dog they had??

Have to comment here though....you seriously think a Lab or GSD couldn't attack and kill a child?

Attitudes like yours are the reason other breeds DO attack children, we don't need to worry 'cause it's a Lab, it wouldn't hurt a fly right?

You shouldn't have to worry about a dog from across the road charging into your front yard,then into your house killing a toddler inside, do you know of any Labs or GSD's who have done that and does anyone own any dogs of those breeds they would suspect could do the same if they got out?.

[Cat]

you can't judge a whole breed on a one off incident. As I've said before, you do not know the circumstances surrounding that particular dog.

Labs

http://kgarcia1113.h...-Dog-Kills-Baby

GSD

http://latimesblogs....ry-housing.html

and there are many more where children are severely injured

You could probably find things about any breed

Edited June 30, 2012 by Cat

[m-sass]

you can't judge a whole breed on a one off incident. As I've said before, you do not know the circumstances surrounding that particular dog.

Labs

http://kgarcia1113.h...-Dog-Kills-Baby

GSD

http://latimesblogs....ry-housing.html

and there are many more where children are severely injured

You could probably find things about any breed

For a dog to do what Ayen's killer did, the dog had a serious case of genetic predisposition for aggression and where the anti BSL argument falls down is the belief that all breeds are on a level playing field gentically, they are not. If all breeds according to many of the anti BSL activists are on a level playing field aggression, courage and gameness wise, the police and military would just use anything of meduin to large size as tactical dogs, they would just use a Standard Poodle, Labrador, Greyhound whatever, same would apply with hunting/pigging dogs, just use anything,they all have teeth,they can all bite, but the problem is, they can't all do the job, Standard Poodles don't have the genetic hardness to take the place of a GSD or Belgian Malinois for tactical work, neither does a Labrador to hunt wild pigs and when people create random BYB mixtures of hard dog breeds like Ayen's killer, it's doesn't take a lot in mismatch of traits in the breeding process to create high level aggression, short nerve foggy headed dogs to perform grave acts of misplaced aggression as occurred in this case.

A quality Pitbull is the least of their problems really, it's the BYB crap with mixtures of hard dog breeds randomly put together that don't fit safely into the community IMHO, the owner of Ayen's killer could have had an attack trained Rottweiler or GSD to guard his property which still wouldn't have gone to the extreme that his BYB landshark did, it's not like poor little Ayen wandered across the road and poked the dog in the eye and it reacted, the dog chased someone else to begin with then redirected onto Ayen, even in defensive aggression the dog was a piece of crap having no focus, no clarity and randomly attacking passive targets, even in a protection sense, it wasn't a good dog's toe nail, we all know that??.

Edited June 30, 2012 by m-sass

[Cat]

You should probably do more research before spouting garbage

Your first paragraph is just laughable. More factors are taken into these things than aggression. There would also be considerations as to body type, speed and trainability. Airedales have been used by the police, army and to hunt big game and they are not hard or aggressive. How many hunting dogs are?

Interesting how You don't listen and you spout nonsense without any facts to back you up.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Cat

[geo]

For a dog to do what Ayen's killer did, the dog had a serious case of genetic predisposition for aggression and where the anti BSL argument falls down is the belief that all breeds are on a level playing field gentically, they are not. If all breeds according to many of the anti BSL activists are on a level playing field aggression, courage and gameness wise, the police and military would just use anything of meduin to large size as tactical dogs, they would just use a Standard Poodle, Labrador, Greyhound whatever, same would apply with hunting/pigging dogs, just use anything,they all have teeth,they can all bite, but the problem is, they can't all do the job, Standard Poodles don't have the genetic hardness to take the place of a GSD or Belgian Malinois for tactical work, neither does a Labrador to hunt wild pigs and when people create random BYB mixtures of hard dog breeds like Ayen's killer, it's doesn't take a lot in mismatch of traits in the breeding process to create high level aggression, short nerve foggy headed dogs to perform grave acts of misplaced aggression as occurred in this case.

A quality Pitbull is the least of their problems really, it's the BYB crap with mixtures of hard dog breeds randomly put together that don't fit safely into the community IMHO, the owner of Ayen's killer could have had an attack trained Rottweiler or GSD to guard his property which still wouldn't have gone to the extreme that his BYB landshark did, it's not like poor little Ayen wandered across the road and poked the dog in the eye and it reacted, the dog chased someone else to begin with then redirected onto Ayen, even in defensive aggression the dog was a piece of crap having no focus, no clarity and randomly attacking passive targets, even in a protection sense, it wasn't a good dog's toe nail, we all know that??.

Not sure how many hunting dogs you know, but i know heaps of kelpie x's that are used for pigging and they're hardly big, certainly not aggressive and are family pets as well... many are completely reliable around all animals except pigs..

Dogs from even the same litter display different traits, trying to say any breed or dog is more likely to attack than the next is impossible and it all depends on so many reasons... it's only when you know all of the history and facts surrounding a dog can you get a picture of how it may react to different situations and you will still only be guessing.

It's up to dog owners to know how their dog will react.. i know how my dogs will react around strangers, children, different types of dogs, kids on skateboards, dingoes, etc...

[mixeduppup]

I've read through and have also heard the bs about pits not giving warning signs. As far as I can tell some dogs are much more subtle with their signs than others. I wonder why this "trainer" was watching the Pit like a hawk, why watch one like a hawk? Was she waiting for it to attack, show aggression or behave in an unsocial way? i don't understand why anyone would constantly watch any breed like a hawk unless wary in the first place. Wariness immediately set off subconscious body language that a dog can pick up on and to the dog, especially one as sensitive as a pit in picking up negative body language this can be taken as threatening behaviour on the trainer's part. Yes the dog was obviously dangerous and should not have been in public and somewhere someone went wrong in its training and socialisation, but could that attack have been avoided if the trainer was not so tense and watchful, did they inadvertently create a situation where the dog felt threatened? As far as I'm concerned dogs never give an attack without warning unless they are mentally ill or damaged. Be it the smallest sign it is there and we have to quickly recognize it without accidentally creating it. BSL needs to be reviewed. Unreg pits need to be desexed and owners enrolled in Pit training and handling courses (like using a break stick etc), pitbulls or any other breed proven to be dangerous to humans or other animals are to be kept in a government approved enclosure and muzzles and a dangerous dog collar are to be warn outside of premises. Dogs that have brutally attacked or killed a human or other domestic animal such as cats or dogs should be PTS. BSL should no longer ban certain breeds but rather seriously monitor their sale and ownership. Example: A reg APBT breeder has a litter of 6 pups, out of this litter 2 are show quality the rest are pet quality. The pet quality ones are to be sold on a desex contract, the local council is then notified of the sale and keep tabs on the buyer of the pup to make sure the desexing is complied with. The two main reg pups are only sold to other reg pitbull breeders or kept on at the stud.

Thoughts?

[melzawelza]

I've read through and have also heard the bs about pits not giving warning signs. As far as I can tell some dogs are much more subtle with their signs than others. I wonder why this "trainer" was watching the Pit like a hawk, why watch one like a hawk? Was she waiting for it to attack, show aggression or behave in an unsocial way? i don't understand why anyone would constantly watch any breed like a hawk unless wary in the first place. Wariness immediately set off subconscious body language that a dog can pick up on and to the dog, especially one as sensitive as a pit in picking up negative body language this can be taken as threatening behaviour on the trainer's part. Yes the dog was obviously dangerous and should not have been in public and somewhere someone went wrong in its training and socialisation, but could that attack have been avoided if the trainer was not so tense and watchful, did they inadvertently create a situation where the dog felt threatened? As far as I'm concerned dogs never give an attack without warning unless they are mentally ill or damaged. Be it the smallest sign it is there and we have to quickly recognize it without accidentally creating it. BSL needs to be reviewed. Unreg pits need to be desexed and owners enrolled in Pit training and handling courses (like using a break stick etc), pitbulls or any other breed proven to be dangerous to humans or other animals are to be kept in a government approved enclosure and muzzles and a dangerous dog collar are to be warn outside of premises. Dogs that have brutally attacked or killed a human or other domestic animal such as cats or dogs should be PTS. BSL should no longer ban certain breeds but rather seriously monitor their sale and ownership. Example: A reg APBT breeder has a litter of 6 pups, out of this litter 2 are show quality the rest are pet quality. The pet quality ones are to be sold on a desex contract, the local council is then notified of the sale and keep tabs on the buyer of the pup to make sure the desexing is complied with. The two main reg pups are only sold to other reg pitbull breeders or kept on at the stud.

Thoughts?

What you have described (Except for the rego breeder bit) is pretty much exactly what is in place in NSW.

Bite stats haven't been reduced, there are more 'black market' pits around than there ever were, and you end up creating what you are trying to prevent by sticking a dog in a cage and muzzling it and not allowing it to socialise in public.

ALL breeds are proven to attack humans and other dogs. Of all the fatalities in this country (30 something) since the stats were compiled in the 70s, only ONE has been attributed to having any pit bull in it - Ayel Chol's killer.

Banning doesn't work - it makes the problem worse. Restricting certain breeds doesn't work - it makes the problem worse.

Targeting owners in education campaigns, strong enforcement on leash laws and registration, financial incentives for registering, desexing and training and tiered enforcement on dogs that have attacked are proven to be the strategies that vastly reduce dog attacks. Breed bans do the opposite.

Just google Calgary, Canada animal control if you want to read what works.

[mixeduppup]

If you read what i wrote I said that I would remove banning. I believe that if a dog (any breed) is proven dangerous it should be removed from public and if taken out muzzled and identified as a dangerous dog. Yes the owner can take up education classes and reeducate the dog as well. Socialising can be done with a muzzle and then perhaps a reassessment of the dog's behaviour in a year by a government behaviourist,.

Edited July 1, 2012 by mixeduppup

[Dame Aussie]

All that Australia has done with BSL is adopted other countries breed lists from around the world as most BSL breed lists globally are much the same. We would never know if BSL reduces bite statistics here unless we had the full range of restricted breeds in plentiful supply to determine the damage they caused if any. Having said that though, I would be confident to say that littel Ayen would still be alive if the owners of the dog who killed her had a Standard Poodle, Labrador or GSD instead of the dog they had??

Have to comment here though....you seriously think a Lab or GSD couldn't attack and kill a child?

Attitudes like yours are the reason other breeds DO attack children, we don't need to worry 'cause it's a Lab, it wouldn't hurt a fly right?

You shouldn't have to worry about a dog from across the road charging into your front yard,then into your house killing a toddler inside, do you know of any Labs or GSD's who have done that and does anyone own any dogs of those breeds they would suspect could do the same if they got out?.

No you shouldnt, however I don't see how that automatically means any pit bull cross would do it?! You seem to be forgetting this was ONE occurence, ONE dog. How that means all dogs of similar breed should be banned is a bit of a jump dont you think??

I don't expect any dog to attack and kill a toddler, but it happens, and it has happened with breeds other than pit bulls so your argument is completely flawed.

[Tazar]

I've read through and have also heard the bs about pits not giving warning signs. As far as I can tell some dogs are much more subtle with their signs than others. I wonder why this "trainer" was watching the Pit like a hawk, why watch one like a hawk? Was she waiting for it to attack, show aggression or behave in an unsocial way? i don't understand why anyone would constantly watch any breed like a hawk unless wary in the first place. Wariness immediately set off subconscious body language that a dog can pick up on and to the dog, especially one as sensitive as a pit in picking up negative body language this can be taken as threatening behaviour on the trainer's part. Yes the dog was obviously dangerous and should not have been in public and somewhere someone went wrong in its training and socialisation, but could that attack have been avoided if the trainer was not so tense and watchful, did they inadvertently create a situation where the dog felt threatened? As far as I'm concerned dogs never give an attack without warning unless they are mentally ill or damaged. Be it the smallest sign it is there and we have to quickly recognize it without accidentally creating it. BSL needs to be reviewed. Unreg pits need to be desexed and owners enrolled in Pit training and handling courses (like using a break stick etc), pitbulls or any other breed proven to be dangerous to humans or other animals are to be kept in a government approved enclosure and muzzles and a dangerous dog collar are to be warn outside of premises. Dogs that have brutally attacked or killed a human or other domestic animal such as cats or dogs should be PTS. BSL should no longer ban certain breeds but rather seriously monitor their sale and ownership. Example: A reg APBT breeder has a litter of 6 pups, out of this litter 2 are show quality the rest are pet quality. The pet quality ones are to be sold on a desex contract, the local council is then notified of the sale and keep tabs on the buyer of the pup to make sure the desexing is complied with. The two main reg pups are only sold to other reg pitbull breeders or kept on at the stud.

Thoughts?

[Tazar]

I would suggest that any trainer going into someones home to conduct training with a dog that they had never met, knowing it made a habit of getting in visitors space (with no previous consequences), being careful and observant would be a matter of course. It goes with the territory you would think.

As far as inadvertently creating the situation, knowing the trainer as I do, I doubt if actions were made that would have set the dog off but even if they did (subconsciously as you suggested), my god, for a dog to attack, shake, try to drag a person to the ground, let go then attack the torso again still trying to drag a person to the ground, that's just way too scary....

Perhaps it was mentally ill.... will never know...

Agree with the rest of your post, certainly couldn't hurt...

[mixeduppup]

Sorry, I misread your post and thought you were referring to a group training situation, the dog obviously had issues, as I was not there I won't comment further as you seem to trust this trainer and for all I know the dog could be mentally ill and have not given a signal but that wouldn't be breed related.

[m-sass]

You should probably do more research before spouting garbage

Your first paragraph is just laughable. More factors are taken into these things than aggression. There would also be considerations as to body type, speed and trainability. Airedales have been used by the police, army and to hunt big game and they are not hard or aggressive. How many hunting dogs are?

Interesting how You don't listen and you spout nonsense without any facts to back you up.

Why don't the police and the military use Airedales now instead of GSD's and Belgian Malinois??

Edited July 2, 2012 by m-sass

[bslsux]

All that Australia has done with BSL is adopted other countries breed lists from around the world as most BSL breed lists globally are much the same. We would never know if BSL reduces bite statistics here unless we had the full range of restricted breeds in plentiful supply to determine the damage they caused if any. Having said that though, I would be confident to say that littel Ayen would still be alive if the owners of the dog who killed her had a Standard Poodle, Labrador or GSD instead of the dog they had??

Have to comment here though....you seriously think a Lab or GSD couldn't attack and kill a child?

Attitudes like yours are the reason other breeds DO attack children, we don't need to worry 'cause it's a Lab, it wouldn't hurt a fly right?

You shouldn't have to worry about a dog from across the road charging into your front yard,then into your house killing a toddler inside, do you know of any Labs or GSD's who have done that and does anyone own any dogs of those breeds they would suspect could do the same if they got out?.

Should be very interesting when pictures of the dog involved in the Ayen Chol tragedy finally surface. So far extremely closely guarded. Multiple Freedom of Information requests (Police, Council, Department of Primary Industries) denied.

TV Media prevented from filming dog on seizure. Word is from multiple and very reliable sources that so called pit bull may not have been, heaven forbid, a pit bull!

[trinabean]

All that Australia has done with BSL is adopted other countries breed lists from around the world as most BSL breed lists globally are much the same. We would never know if BSL reduces bite statistics here unless we had the full range of restricted breeds in plentiful supply to determine the damage they caused if any. Having said that though, I would be confident to say that littel Ayen would still be alive if the owners of the dog who killed her had a Standard Poodle, Labrador or GSD instead of the dog they had??

Have to comment here though....you seriously think a Lab or GSD couldn't attack and kill a child?

Attitudes like yours are the reason other breeds DO attack children, we don't need to worry 'cause it's a Lab, it wouldn't hurt a fly right?

You shouldn't have to worry about a dog from across the road charging into your front yard,then into your house killing a toddler inside, do you know of any Labs or GSD's who have done that and does anyone own any dogs of those breeds they would suspect could do the same if they got out?.

Should be very interesting when pictures of the dog involved in the Ayen Chol tragedy finally surface. So far extremely closely guarded. Multiple Freedom of Information requests (Police, Council, Department of Primary Industries) denied.

TV Media prevented from filming dog on seizure. Word is from multiple and very reliable sources that so called pit bull may not have been, heaven forbid, a pit bull!

Edited, because I've decided m-sass is not worthy of a response.

Edited July 4, 2012 by trinabean

[sumosmum]

All that Australia has done with BSL is adopted other countries breed lists from around the world as most BSL breed lists globally are much the same. We would never know if BSL reduces bite statistics here unless we had the full range of restricted breeds in plentiful supply to determine the damage they caused if any. Having said that though, I would be confident to say that littel Ayen would still be alive if the owners of the dog who killed her had a Standard Poodle, Labrador or GSD instead of the dog they had??

Have to comment here though....you seriously think a Lab or GSD couldn't attack and kill a child?

Attitudes like yours are the reason other breeds DO attack children, we don't need to worry 'cause it's a Lab, it wouldn't hurt a fly right?

You shouldn't have to worry about a dog from across the road charging into your front yard,then into your house killing a toddler inside, do you know of any Labs or GSD's who have done that and does anyone own any dogs of those breeds they would suspect could do the same if they got out?.

Should be very interesting when pictures of the dog involved in the Ayen Chol tragedy finally surface. So far extremely closely guarded. Multiple Freedom of Information requests (Police, Council, Department of Primary Industries) denied.

TV Media prevented from filming dog on seizure. Word is from multiple and very reliable sources that so called pit bull may not have been, heaven forbid, a pit bull!

Hmm, yes, that invisible pitbull! I was thinking the same thing. I am really glad about the inquiry, and hope that a lot of information comes out of it. Nobody here was, as far as I know, present when the sad event happened, so I don't know where they get their information. They seem to think they know exactly what happened, what the dog did, what it looked like and how it came to be outside the yard. Amazing that they have this special gift of knowing all the facts without being there and prior to the inquiry.

[Rocketeer]

The Government focuses on the 'dangerous breeds' by being "Anti- particular breed". Why not focus on being "Pro- good ownership" or "Pro- good breeding practices"?

Same goes for the Anti-BSL camp. Instead of being "Anti- Bsl" what not focus on being "Pro- Legislation promoting good ownership and breeding practices"?

Because I don't see how focusing on the problem is going to create solutions. You go where you look. So focusing on the problem will create more problems.

[moosmum]

Agree with the above post.

M-Sass,

I have witnessed a dog attack on a child.The dog went for the throat.Jumped up and place his paws on the childs shoulders and preceeded to bite the neck.The child (10 yrs old) put her hands on the dogs shoulders to hold him back and he kept biting anywhere he could reach- shoulders,wrists,upper arms,breasts.The attack only stopped when I got my own dog to get the attacker.

There was no warning and I am confident in saying that.There was no growling or noise even while the attack was happening.

Guess the breed? This was a pedigree,with papers G.R.

Police and military are using mostly Mals these days for several reasons.Temperament and trainability of pedigree dogs in many of the traditionaly used breeds is LESS PREDICTABLE and reliable than it once was when these dogs were being bred for work first,by people with a working knowledge of those breeds.A working knowledge of the breed(s) is no longer seen as a requirement to breed good dogs,so long as they can win a few shows and have good conformation.The traits that made those breeds great at their jobs is no longer a priority and health issues have also impacted in a big way.

Malinoise have so far avoided most of those issues.They're not yet widely accepted or popular with the public as companion animals.Their breeding is more task specific ATM.Prey drive plays a very big part in that and is encouraged because it is a very effecient training tool.Training now is more standardised practice than it once was and efficiency and standarisation is apreciated when fewer people have that working background to begin with.High prey drive allows for that.(but I.M.O doesn't do much for more traditional breeds that were developed before training in prey drive became standard expectation)

I.M.O more problems are created by people with no working knowledge of dogs,let alone individual breeds and their specialities,deciding they can read a breed standard so are qualified to breed.Pedigree or not.

Edited to add: With working knowledge,even cross breds have a definite place.The assumed predictability of pure breeds allows for cross breeds to be bred for specific purposes and situations that might not be catered for in pedigree dogs.Anyone who still depends on dogs in an every day,varied or unusual working capacity can tell you.Some of us do.To have some one with no knowledge of us,our needs or abilities telling us ANKC reg. dogs will solve all problems is IMO showing ignorance of basic issues.

Edited October 11, 2012 by moosmum

[Jed]

do you know of any Labs or GSD's who have done that and does anyone own any dogs of those breeds they would suspect could do the same if they got out?.

Wasn't that a labrador which went ballistic last year and attacked its owners ? Or was that a Golden Retriever.

Labradors and Retrievers were always higher on the bite stat lists than APBT - before the bans, obviously, and now.

This is old, dead ground which does not stand up to scientific examination and is promoted by those whose research has been limited to and influenced by the Sydney Morning Herald.

More people die from shark attacks and are killed by horses than ever die from dog attacks. Go figure.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Jed