Owey Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Hi We bought a Border Collie pup from a backyard breeder last Sunday, he seemed very healthy and happy at the time. He was energetic, playful and happy for the first few days. Thursday he slept all day, we thought he was tired after a big week. Thursday night we noticed he had a slight limp in his hind left leg. Friday morning, he was not weight bearing on either hind legs and we took him to the vet first thing. He didn't appear to be in pain or discomfort. The vet was concerned with his inconsistent symptoms; high temperatures (40 +), generally lethargic, not much appetite, inability to correct the his rear limbs when put into bent position but otherwise reasonably happy. The vet gave him some A/B, an anti inflammitory and something to settle his fever, and so we came home. We contacted the breeder so they could keep an eye/notify owners on the other pups in the litter. He seemed to feel a little better and some of his appetite returned but was still not very mobile. Then by the end of Friday (yesterday) he seemed to be quiet lethargic again only being able to stand on his hind legs for more than a few seconds at the most. He had a follow up appointment with the vet this morning (Saturday). There wasn't any improvement, in fact he seemed to be a little worse with his temp still over 40. They decided to change medication to Clindamycin thinking that he may have a Neospora infection (Neosporosis??). Well today he just laid in his bed, groaning and whining all day, poor little champ, eating extremely little and not drinking much at all, unable to move more than a foot or so from him bed. Again we provided the breeder with an update. I guess we are hoping for some advice from any one on the forums who may have seen something like this in their own puppy. Or just some of your own experiences in similar circumstances. We hate the idea of him suffering at all. It must be said that we love this little guy and he has become a member of our family but we have 4 kids and a mortgage, specialist puppy neuro's are out of out league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9angel Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Poor little guy. Sorry I cannnot give advice as to what the problem may be but I would be making sure he is kept hydrated, it wouldn't take much for him to dehydrate, especially if he has a fever of 40+. It's a wonder the vet didn't keep him in and put him on fluids. When you lift the skin on the back of his neck does it spring back quickly or stay in a ridge?. Do you have any hydralite? that's good to help keep them hydrated, though if he isn't drinking on his own, you'd have to syringe feed it to him. Is he going to the toilet ok? Is there another vet around that you could take him to? or an emergency vet you can go to if he goes downhill through the night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I'm sorry you are having such an experience ..that poor pup . a baby puppy this ill is a real worry , and to my way of thinking ideally should be in hospital on a drip and being monitored. Like human babies , baby pups can go from ill to very ill so fast ..and dehydration happens while you watch - causing all sorts of problems. My suggestion would be another vet, I think.....unfortunately, good care does cost a lot of money . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) It is highly likely that this puppy has TNS which there is now a DNA test for. It is difficult to diagnose without a DNA test but your description sounds like a classic case. Get your vet to contact the University of Sydney who are about to start up the testing again after it was moved from the UNSW. Optigen in the USA are also set up to the test at the moment. See if Sydney Uni can do the test now for you urgently, otherwise the puppy will need a bone marrow biopsy. Much cheaper and easier on the puppy to do the DNA test. If it is TNS, it is fatal with no cure, the puppy will keep getting infections and will need to be pts. All registered BC puppies should now be from DNA tested parents to ensure that they cannot be affected by this hereditary defective immune system. One parent of every litter must be DNA normal for TNS to ensure the puppies are not affected. The same applies to the other fatal condition CL and the eye problem CEA. This is sadly why buying an unregistered puppy is such a bad idea. Edited to add that a reputable breeder would have asked for the puppy to be returned immediately so they could deal with the problem with their vet and refund if necessary. Also if this does turn out to be TNS, then you might consider sueing the breeder for selling a puppy with a 100% preventable disease. Until someone does that to a BYB, they won't get the message that they need to health test like the registered breeders do. Edited June 23, 2012 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) And I hope you are going to follow this up with his 'breeder'. I'm so sick of them getting away with this crap when registered breeders who do their damnedest to avoid things like this get dragged to court etc.... Snap dancinbc!!! Agree 100% Edited June 23, 2012 by Missymoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owey Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 When you lift the skin on the back of his neck does it spring back quickly or stay in a ridge?. Do you have any hydralite? that's good to help keep them hydrated, though if he isn't drinking on his own, you'd have to syringe feed it to him. Is he going to the toilet ok? Is there another vet around that you could take him to? or an emergency vet you can go to if he goes downhill through the night? We've been giving him water with chicken stock in it for added salts but have now just given him some hydralite also, thanks for the advice. He is drinking on his own but his lack of mobility is the difficult part. The skin on his neck doesn't seem to be staying in a ridge when pinched. We live in a small town with only the one vet hospital in it, but they do have a 24hr on call service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owey Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 It is highly likely that this puppy has TNS which there is now a DNA test for. It is difficult to diagnose without a DNA test but your description sounds like a classic case. Get your vet to contact the University of Sydney who are about to start up the testing again after it was moved from the UNSW. Optigen in the USA are also set up to the test at the moment. See if Sydney Uni can do the test now for you urgently, otherwise the puppy will need a bone marrow biopsy. Much cheaper and easier on the puppy to do the DNA test. If it is TNS, it is fatal with no cure, the puppy will keep getting infections and will need to be pts. All registered BC puppies should now be from DNA tested parents to ensure that they cannot be affected by this hereditary defective immune system. One parent of every litter must be DNA normal for TNS to ensure the puppies are not affected. The same applies to the other fatal condition CL and the eye problem CEA. This is sadly why buying an unregistered puppy is such a bad idea. Edited to add that a reputable breeder would have asked for the puppy to be returned immediately so they could deal with the problem with their vet and refund if necessary. Also if this does turn out to be TNS, then you might consider sueing the breeder for selling a puppy with a 100% preventable disease. Until someone does that to a BYB, they won't get the message that they need to health test like the registered breeders do. Thanks for the advice. We will definitely talk to vet about this and get them to contact the University. We live in a smaller town about 3 hours from Sydney so a trip down there is a big trip for us. And with 4 kids, weekend sports and limited resources, very difficult to do. Unfortunately (and in hindsight, regrettably) we didn't do enough research on buying a pure bred puppy. This is the first time we have "purchased" a PB dog, with previous pups bought from the RSPCA or Council pounds. We aren't looking at showing or breeding but just wanted a pet to love and spoil and didn't even contemplate anything like this occurring. Whilst the Breeder is very sympathetic, and they did talk to their own vet about this, they have put it down to just bad luck as the puppy was fine there. Certainly, if we ever decide on doing this again, we will go through a reputable and registered breeder. Can I ask what constitutes a registered BC puppy? Should they all be registered or only if from a registered breeder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) It is highly likely that this puppy has TNS which there is now a DNA test for. It is difficult to diagnose without a DNA test but your description sounds like a classic case. Get your vet to contact the University of Sydney who are about to start up the testing again after it was moved from the UNSW. Optigen in the USA are also set up to the test at the moment. See if Sydney Uni can do the test now for you urgently, otherwise the puppy will need a bone marrow biopsy. Much cheaper and easier on the puppy to do the DNA test. If it is TNS, it is fatal with no cure, the puppy will keep getting infections and will need to be pts. All registered BC puppies should now be from DNA tested parents to ensure that they cannot be affected by this hereditary defective immune system. One parent of every litter must be DNA normal for TNS to ensure the puppies are not affected. The same applies to the other fatal condition CL and the eye problem CEA. This is sadly why buying an unregistered puppy is such a bad idea. Edited to add that a reputable breeder would have asked for the puppy to be returned immediately so they could deal with the problem with their vet and refund if necessary. Also if this does turn out to be TNS, then you might consider sueing the breeder for selling a puppy with a 100% preventable disease. Until someone does that to a BYB, they won't get the message that they need to health test like the registered breeders do. Thanks for the advice. We will definitely talk to vet about this and get them to contact the University. We live in a smaller town about 3 hours from Sydney so a trip down there is a big trip for us. And with 4 kids, weekend sports and limited resources, very difficult to do. Unfortunately (and in hindsight, regrettably) we didn't do enough research on buying a pure bred puppy. This is the first time we have "purchased" a PB dog, with previous pups bought from the RSPCA or Council pounds. We aren't looking at showing or breeding but just wanted a pet to love and spoil and didn't even contemplate anything like this occurring. Whilst the Breeder is very sympathetic, and they did talk to their own vet about this, they have put it down to just bad luck as the puppy was fine there. Certainly, if we ever decide on doing this again, we will go through a reputable and registered breeder. Can I ask what constitutes a registered BC puppy? Should they all be registered or only if from a registered breeder? The puppy doesn't need to come to Sydney to be DNA tested, you just send a blood sample. If your puppy does have TNS then there is a big chance that another one or two puppies from the litter will also have it but may not show it for another month or two. Sometimes there is is only one in a litter, sometimes 3 or 4, but even one affected puppy means both parents carry the defective gene and must never be bred together again. TNS - Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome, is when the bone marrow makes neutrophils for the immune system but is unable to release them into the bloodstream. This makes the puppy prone to any infection that comes along and the symptoms vary depending on the infection acquired. TNS carriers are found in all Border Collie lines all over the world. A registered puppy comes from a breeder who is registered with the ANKC and their state body, which in NSW is Dogs NSW. The breeder will have a breeder's prefix and all of their puppies will also be registered and come with an ANKC registered pedigree that guarantees that they are purebred and shows their ancestry as well as with microchip and vaccination certificates. A "purebred" dog without papers is actually a lot riskier than a mutt because you have no idea of how the dog has been bred and no health history. All ANKC breeders have to comply with a code of ethics and while DNA health testing is not mandatory, most breeders do it for the three conditions in Border Collies. The more reputable breeders also hip and elbow score breeding stock as well and some do additional hearing and eye testing. Once a simple DNA test is available to make it possible to never breed a dog with a particular disease again, all breeders have a legal obligation to use that test to ensure they are not selling affected puppies. In Vic it is actually a state law for anyone breeding dogs, registered or not, to not sell a puppy affected with a preventable condition. If you look through the puppy listings here on DOL you will see that most mention the DNA test results for the parents of the litters for all three conditions - CL, TNS and CEA. Even those churning out coloured puppies just for profit, not for the good of the breed, have DNA tested stock. It is fine to breed from carriers but they must be bred to a partner that is clear/normal for the conditon they carry. The problem with BYB or unregistered breeders is they are not part of the "breed community" so do not keep up with health issues affecting the breed and because they breed purely for profit, sticking their heads in the sand is more profitable. Edited June 23, 2012 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Menigitis was the first thing that came to my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 I think it could be TNS too. You can actually test for it on a mouth swab, send it by mail. I'd give your vet a call ASAP and ask them to check it out. They probably haven't heard of it or think it's very rare, but it's much more common than previously believed. The reason it's important ti diagnose is that it's incurable and really horrible for you and the pup, and euthanasia now would save you all a lot of suffering. Also the breeder needs to know. It could be a neurological infection, but you'd wonder why such a young otherwise healthy pup had developed this, and TNS would be a possible reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) Poor little puppy. He is so sick, 40+ temp, e.t.c. I'd be doing whatever Dancinbc's said to do & quickly. This puppy needs attention ASAP to stop the poor little one suffering any more than he already has. It must be very hard for you as you have only just brought him home too Edited June 24, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 I think it could be TNS too. You can actually test for it on a mouth swab, send it by mail. I'd give your vet a call ASAP and ask them to check it out. They probably haven't heard of it or think it's very rare, but it's much more common than previously believed. The reason it's important ti diagnose is that it's incurable and really horrible for you and the pup, and euthanasia now would save you all a lot of suffering. Also the breeder needs to know. It could be a neurological infection, but you'd wonder why such a young otherwise healthy pup had developed this, and TNS would be a possible reason. Sydney Uni are going to be asking for blood samples like Prof Wilton did, not the mouth swabs. There are other possible illnesses it could be but I would be checking for TNS first because it is the most likely in a Border Collie from untested parents and the easiest and cheapest to test for. You don't want to spend a fortune testing for lots of other conditions only to find out it was TNS all along. When the test first became available about 7 years ago we found that about 20% of the breed carried the gene for TNS so breeding untested animals is a real gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9angel Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 How is puppy today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owey Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 He seems to be much better today, his temperature has dropped below 40, he seems much more alert and is wandering around the lounge room unaided in short bursts. And he is sitting rather than laying down more often. He's also eating and drinking a little more. Fingers are crossed (as well arms, legs, toes and eyes) that he is a road to recovery. He hasn't been groaning and whining as much either. My wife thinks she heard the vets mention TNS yesterday, but for some reason they were thinking Neosporosis instead. We will send blood samples to the Uni to check for TNS so we know one way or another. We really appreciate the advice from you all so far. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 He seems to be much better today, his temperature has dropped below 40, he seems much more alert and is wandering around the lounge room unaided in short bursts. And he is sitting rather than laying down more often. He's also eating and drinking a little more. Fingers are crossed (as well arms, legs, toes and eyes) that he is a road to recovery. He hasn't been groaning and whining as much either. My wife thinks she heard the vets mention TNS yesterday, but for some reason they were thinking Neosporosis instead. We will send blood samples to the Uni to check for TNS so we know one way or another. We really appreciate the advice from you all so far. Thanks! The thing is he could have both. Puppies with TNS are only detected when they get an infection and that could be any sort of infection, including neosporosis. The vets can sometimes treat whatever infection is present at the time but if TNS is present as well, the puppy will eventually die from an infection it cannot fight, no matter how it is treated. TNS also varies in intensity with some puppies having a little immunity and others none. Hopefully it is a one off infection but the odds are very much against it. Let us know how you get on with the test and if you can rule that out then the puppy has a chance of recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9angel Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 He seems to be much better today, his temperature has dropped below 40, he seems much more alert and is wandering around the lounge room unaided in short bursts. And he is sitting rather than laying down more often. He's also eating and drinking a little more. Fingers are crossed (as well arms, legs, toes and eyes) that he is a road to recovery. He hasn't been groaning and whining as much either. My wife thinks she heard the vets mention TNS yesterday, but for some reason they were thinking Neosporosis instead. We will send blood samples to the Uni to check for TNS so we know one way or another. We really appreciate the advice from you all so far. Thanks! Keeping everything crossed for puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) What a dreadful thing this TNS is. I had no idea it was as hideous as it is. Thank god for all of you responsible, registered breeders out there that do all the relevant checks for this & all the other nasties that exist. Can't help but feel for this poor littley. He just sounds so darn ill. So unfair. I do hope the test comes back clear Edited June 24, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owey Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 He seems to have improved again this morning, managing to walk (a very wobbly and unsteady walk) across the room. Although he still isn't eating much. I'm about to take him back to the vet for a check up and so they can take blood for testing of TNS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 poor little guy ... hope the vet takes things seriously, and does the tests you ask for :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOCTRL Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Fingers paws and hooves crossed for the little fella. Poor little chap. Please let use know how he is getting along and give him a big cuddle from us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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