Sick Border Collie Pup

[BC Crazy]

How is puppy going today? Was thinking of the poor little fella last night couldn't get to sleep after that. Feel for all concerned. Hope he can pull through

[dancinbcs]

He seems to have improved again this morning, managing to walk (a very wobbly and unsteady walk) across the room. Although he still isn't eating much. I'm about to take him back to the vet for a check up and so they can take blood for testing of TNS.

Glad to hear he is on the improve for the moment and fingers crossed he doesn't have TNS but best to find out now.

[Owey]

Thanks so much for the best wishes from everyone. I spoke to Prof. Peter Williamson from the University of Sydney yesterday about getting Bailey tested for TNS. He was very helpful. I need to get in touch with the BCCNSW this morning to arrange payment for the DNA testing.

Bailey is still improving on the Clindamycin, becoming stronger in his hind legs although the still appear to be quite stiff though-out his joints. He still has poor balance and can't stay standing/walking for very long, it still is a massive improvement so far. (Edit: This morning he has in fact been able to walk from room to room, and I have just found him under one of the kids beds fast asleep!)

He still isn't eating much, but I figure he hasn't got much of an appetite. He is drinking though, and it's been causing us all to smile to see him standing there taking a big wee on the puppy mat. Overall he seems to be happier, even playing a little now with his chew rope.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Owey

[persephone]

:) That's encouraging news - it must indeed be great to see him happier !!

[BC Crazy]

Sounds like we are feeling a little brighter. Even managed a play

[LizT]

Just reading this thread. It is so sad that good people just "want a dog as a pet" and think that a Registered dog is just for Showing or Breeding "with papers".

It really sounds like the puppys breeders really have no idea, and have brought these babies into the world with blind enthusiasm.

I feel for you new puppy owners as all you wanted was a pet and truly it appears you have had the bad luck of buying a puppy with the potential to become so ill with a preventable condition.

[BC Crazy]

Yes I really feel very sorry for these new puppy owners & also this poor little puppy that is just so ill. It is just so very sad for all concerned

I used to think the exact same way with regards to 'just wanting a pet' that you were not able to go to a breeder. But I am so glad I researched lots before buying my 2 guys,

both brought through highly reputable reg. breeders. I tell anyone who is interested in buying a puppy to buy from a reg. breeder & be prepared to wait but it will be so very worth it.

For one thing not ALL puppies from each litter make the grade to become show dogs & that is how I now have 2 amazing 'pet' Border Collies that are very well breed but even more importantly

very healthy dogs. All the relevant health tests & checks have been done. I couldn't be happier :)

[DeltaCharlie]

I got Cody (and then Delta) off sheep properties as registered breeders wouldn't give me the time of day as I was told I had no experience with dogs so could not have a border collie as my first breed. Having never had dogs before I obviously could not prove how devoted I was to learning about them and at the time I thought agility was something that they only did in America :laugh:

I was determined that a border collie was the breed for me so had to source them elsewhere. Through Cody I discovered that agility does in fact exist in Australia yet never got the chance to compete with him due to a few knee surgeries so still could not prove my worth as an owner when the time came to add Delta to my family. Once again, I was forced to go outside the registered dog network for my dog.

Well as it turns out I was right all along, the breed definitely is for me, and I have never once regretted owning any of them. I think breeders do themselves and the breed a disservice sometimes and make it seem as though the only people who can buy a "papered dog" is someone who wants to show or compete in some way shape or form with them. The regular pet owners are quite often turned away by what seems to be an almost elite society. So much easier to source a dog from a newspaper, no questions are asked then and you take a chance on the health of the pup. Unfortunately for the OP the gamble just might not have paid off I really do hope it turns out to be something minor, sometimes young pups can get so sick it seems like a really serious ailment, then they bounce right back as though nothing was ever wrong. I'm hoping this is the case here.

This BTW is in no way a dig at ANKC breeders :) We are breeders ourselves and under no circumstances will our dogs ever be sold to pet homes as they are just not suited to them. Not even an active home. But ours are bred for a very different purpose to most ANKC dogs and we are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to this.

[dancinbcs]

I got Cody (and then Delta) off sheep properties as registered breeders wouldn't give me the time of day as I was told I had no experience with dogs so could not have a border collie as my first breed. Having never had dogs before I obviously could not prove how devoted I was to learning about them and at the time I thought agility was something that they only did in America :laugh:

I was determined that a border collie was the breed for me so had to source them elsewhere. Through Cody I discovered that agility does in fact exist in Australia yet never got the chance to compete with him due to a few knee surgeries so still could not prove my worth as an owner when the time came to add Delta to my family. Once again, I was forced to go outside the registered dog network for my dog.

Well as it turns out I was right all along, the breed definitely is for me, and I have never once regretted owning any of them. I think breeders do themselves and the breed a disservice sometimes and make it seem as though the only people who can buy a "papered dog" is someone who wants to show or compete in some way shape or form with them. The regular pet owners are quite often turned away by what seems to be an almost elite society. So much easier to source a dog from a newspaper, no questions are asked then and you take a chance on the health of the pup. Unfortunately for the OP the gamble just might not have paid off I really do hope it turns out to be something minor, sometimes young pups can get so sick it seems like a really serious ailment, then they bounce right back as though nothing was ever wrong. I'm hoping this is the case here.

This BTW is in no way a dig at ANKC breeders :) We are breeders ourselves and under no circumstances will our dogs ever be sold to pet homes as they are just not suited to them. Not even an active home. But ours are bred for a very different purpose to most ANKC dogs and we are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to this.

It is true that it can be difficult to get a Border as a first dog because there are usually plenty of experienced dog homes waiting for puppies and I admit that I am reluctant to sell a puppy as smart as a Border to someone with no dog experience at all. In fact I do not recommend a puppy of any breed for anyone that has never lived with a dog before. A very few dedicated people pull off succesfully raising a puppy but so many stuff it up and ruin the dog for good. This is why pounds and shelters are full of 8-12 month old untrained dogs.

In my experience Border puppies tend to train their owners if the owner doesn't have a clue were to start. Preference goes to those that know the breed or have had other demanding breeds like GSDs, Dobes, etc but plenty are sold as pets to people who know what they getting themselves in when keeping a Border as a pet. They don't have to compete in anything but all Borders need more mental and physical stimulation than most breeds. If I can't find a home that will do obedience/sports I like family homes with several active, well behaved kids. I figure if they can raise kids they can raise a Border. A lot also depends on the individual puppy as the rare lounge lizards would suit a more relaxed home where the hyper puppy would create havoc. It is all about matching the best home to each individual puppy.

I am surprised that you were unable to buy an ANKC puppy after doing agility training with your first dog though. It should never be about titles or competeing but about providing the dog with a suitable lifestyle and proving that you can raise and train a puppy.

Despite all that though, whether a puppy is from a registered breeder or not, is purebred or not, it should still be bred with health as a top priority and until the public demand this, unhealthy puppies will continue to be bred and sold to an unsuspecting public.

[LizT]

So really, when all is said and done. BYB's need to have some form of education too.

If they are going to breed dogs they need to know about the health issues of said breed.

Of course ,this is almost impossible if they are "one off" breeders who just want to breed the one litter.

How can this be achieved. Health testing in itself isn't madatory even for ANKC registered breeders. Would a BYB health test if they knew what diseases were at risk? Surely it is not all about the almighty dollar for ALL BYB. I'm sure some would do the right thing,if they could.

Again, this may have more to do with the introduction of Limited Registration. Once it was fine for a Registered breeder to sell an unpapered dog, for considerably cheaper than a papered dog, and this puppy had the benefit of the wisdom, knowledge and experience that went into producing it's parents and litter mates. Okay, at least with limited Register we have a way of verifying if he breeder is ANKC registered, so that is a good thing, and yes, there are still plenty of ANKC breeders who fall short of their responsibilities too.

Really, there is no simple answer. I too have in the past not seen the worth of spending $1200 on a "pet" when I could get the same breed for $400. I was lucky, it did not come back and bite me in the bum, but in hindsight could so easily have done so.

[Mystiqview]

There are ANKC breeders who should not be allowed to breed a flea let alone a puppy. Unfortunately the colour breed market is increasing dramatically (unfortunately more so here in QLD) with people churning out all range of rainbow puppies. Unfortunately not all are DNA testing or using stock which are tested for all three.. Many are only DNA tested or from DNA tested of two of the disorders.

Sad to say. There are some BYB who really should just go that extra bit and become registered.

There are plenty of working BC people who do the right thing and we know they breed for something different to many ANKC breeder. I am so sick of the US and THEM attitude by people on both sides of this fence.

Regardless of whether you are working BC breeder or ANKC breeder, breeders should be doing the health tests. It has been proven that CEA, CL and TNS is in both AKNC and working lines.

Many working line BC's would not be suitable for many in the city. Some ANKC dogs would not be suitable for just pet homes where the owners are quiet or not active. It is about horses for courses and matching the drive and temperament of the puppy with those wanting puppies.

To the OP. I am soo sorry you have gone through this experience with what should have been a bundle of joy and happiness. I really hope it is not TNS as it will be a death sentence - it is just a matter of time. I also hope the "breeder" you got the puppy from does not leave you high and dry. If it is something like TNS, then they should be held somewhat responsible for what they have bred and hence required a good sum of money for.

A good wel bred BC from quality parents should not be costing any more than $1000 regardless of colour.

Fingers crossed your boy is ok.

[BC Crazy]

I too have heard it is difficult to get a Border collie from a reg. breeder if you are a first timer.

I have owned BC's most of my life purely as pets. I presume breeders are just being careful with their precious puppies. From what I understand they almost always also have a waiting list varying in length. So 'pet owners' are usually on the bottom of this list. Not that it bothers me but does explain the sometimes long wait.

I have brought one girl I owned for ten years many years ago from a farmer. I was lucky, she was a great girl & very healthy.

Hope your puppy hasn't got anything sinister & can pull through this.

Edited June 27, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Jumabaar]

So really, when all is said and done. BYB's need to have some form of education too.

If they are going to breed dogs they need to know about the health issues of said breed.

Of course ,this is almost impossible if they are "one off" breeders who just want to breed the one litter.

How can this be achieved. Health testing in itself isn't madatory even for ANKC registered breeders. Would a BYB health test if they knew what diseases were at risk? Surely it is not all about the almighty dollar for ALL BYB. I'm sure some would do the right thing,if they could.

Again, this may have more to do with the introduction of Limited Registration. Once it was fine for a Registered breeder to sell an unpapered dog, for considerably cheaper than a papered dog, and this puppy had the benefit of the wisdom, knowledge and experience that went into producing it's parents and litter mates. Okay, at least with limited Register we have a way of verifying if he breeder is ANKC registered, so that is a good thing, and yes, there are still plenty of ANKC breeders who fall short of their responsibilities too.

Really, there is no simple answer. I too have in the past not seen the worth of spending $1200 on a "pet" when I could get the same breed for $400. I was lucky, it did not come back and bite me in the bum, but in hindsight could so easily have done so.

Just an example- at a recent seminar I was shocked at how few vets realised there was a test for MDR1 (ABCB1) so if these people don't have the information why would joe blow letting their bitch have a litter know it??

I do think there is a great deal of room for education of breeders, vets and buyers. It would be nice for the ANKC to step up and do it (would be great for public image) but I doubt it will happen.

Best of luck with the pup.

[dancinbcs]

So really, when all is said and done. BYB's need to have some form of education too.

If they are going to breed dogs they need to know about the health issues of said breed.

Of course ,this is almost impossible if they are "one off" breeders who just want to breed the one litter.

How can this be achieved. Health testing in itself isn't madatory even for ANKC registered breeders. Would a BYB health test if they knew what diseases were at risk? Surely it is not all about the almighty dollar for ALL BYB. I'm sure some would do the right thing,if they could.

Again, this may have more to do with the introduction of Limited Registration. Once it was fine for a Registered breeder to sell an unpapered dog, for considerably cheaper than a papered dog, and this puppy had the benefit of the wisdom, knowledge and experience that went into producing it's parents and litter mates. Okay, at least with limited Register we have a way of verifying if he breeder is ANKC registered, so that is a good thing, and yes, there are still plenty of ANKC breeders who fall short of their responsibilities too.

Really, there is no simple answer. I too have in the past not seen the worth of spending $1200 on a "pet" when I could get the same breed for $400. I was lucky, it did not come back and bite me in the bum, but in hindsight could so easily have done so.

I really don't know where this myth about puppies without papers being sold cheaply came from. Before the limit register came in, in NSW, all puppies were sold on main register for the same amount. What the owner did with the puppy was up to them. If someone really didn't want the papers the breeder would sometimes knock maybe 5% of the price but the puppies were never sold cheap. The extra cost of a well bred puppy is nothing to do with the cost of "the papers" but with the cost of raising a healthy litter with a verified ancestry.

Limit register puppies now should also not be cheaper unless it is a breed where someone has spent a lot of money importing lines. In a breed like Borders, this isn't the case and all puppies cost the same to raise so they should be sold for the same amount. In fact I know many show breeders in several breeds that give away their main register puppies to get them into homes that will promote them and they charge for the limit register pet puppies to cover some of the costs.

[dancinbcs]

I too have heard it is difficult to get a Border collie from a reg. breeder if you are a first timer.

I have owned BC's most of my life purely as pets. I presume breeders are just being careful with their precious puppies. From what I understand they almost always also have a waiting list varying in length. So 'pet owners' are usually on the bottom of this list. Not that it bothers me but does explain the sometimes long wait.

I have brought one girl I owned for ten years many years ago from a farmer. I was lucky, she was a great girl & very healthy.

Hope your puppy hasn't got anything sinister & can pull through this.

I would estimate that 70% of ANKC registered puppies go primarily as pets, even from the most prominent show kennels. In a show litter there is usually only one or two that go into the showring. If you can get sports homes for some of the rest that is great but by far most of them go as pets but to more experienced dog homes. So getting a pet Border is not at all difficult provided you are the right home to raise a Border and there happens to be a puppy to suit your situation available.

[ness]

Not sure but in SA when we bought Ness it was fairly common practice for breeders to register "show" pups and sell the rest without papers. Admittedly that was nearly 12 years ago now. I know of a couple of similar aged BCs to her around in the state who are from registered breeders but are without papers. I also know of people who were offered a pup without papers for a lesser price then one with papers but again of a similar "vintage" to Ness.

[dancinbcs]

Not sure but in SA when we bought Ness it was fairly common practice for breeders to register "show" pups and sell the rest without papers. Admittedly that was nearly 12 years ago now. I know of a couple of similar aged BCs to her around in the state who are from registered breeders but are without papers. I also know of people who were offered a pup without papers for a lesser price then one with papers but again of a similar "vintage" to Ness.

I believe it was common in SA and WA for some odd reason but not in the eastern states. I bought my first show dog 29 years ago in Vic and the others in the litter all went with papers back then. Lots of pet dogs got borrowed back for litters or sired litters in those days, as needed, because they all had full papers. In fact in the next decade I only met two people who had started out with a dog without papers.

[LizT]

Not sure but in SA when we bought Ness it was fairly common practice for breeders to register "show" pups and sell the rest without papers. Admittedly that was nearly 12 years ago now. I know of a couple of similar aged BCs to her around in the state who are from registered breeders but are without papers. I also know of people who were offered a pup without papers for a lesser price then one with papers but again of a similar "vintage" to Ness.

I believe it was common in SA and WA for some odd reason but not in the eastern states. I bought my first show dog 29 years ago in Vic and the others in the litter all went with papers back then. Lots of pet dogs got borrowed back for litters or sired litters in those days, as needed, because they all had full papers. In fact in the next decade I only met two people who had started out with a dog without papers.

I bought a Miniature Poodle from a registered Breeder who also showed a very long time ago, I was given a "Pet Only" pup with hand drawn papers for considerably less than one with Registered papers would have cost. This was approx. 35 years ago. My families German Shepherds all came with the same type of arrangement. As Dad always said, "What good is a piece of paper? I can't buy dog food with it"? (PS. MY dad is a HUGE tightass) but he did have a point there. It was a pattern that I followed for many years. If teh dog came with papers that was a bonus. It was only because my Shipperke came with papers that I decided to Show her. I was able to take her to Obedience without papers so it didn't restrict what I wanted to do, her being papered opened more doors though. The same scenario today, and she would probably be on Limited if I just bought her as a Pet.

This arrangement can no longer be done and consequently all dogs cost the same to breed and register and their end price is the same more or less. Some might offer cheaper for limited, most don't since all relevant expenses didn't factor if they were Limited or Main Reg.

[Seita]

Owey, how is puppy going? Have you sent the blood tests off yet? We all have fingers and paws crossed for your little guy that it's not TNS. Please don't get offended or put off by all the backyard breeder/puppy farmer bashing, we just do it because we care so much for our respective breeds and we hate seeing situations like the one you are in now. Keep us updated and we'll keep thinking of you and your family!

[dancinbcs]

This arrangement can no longer be done and consequently all dogs cost the same to breed and register and their end price is the same more or less. Some might offer cheaper for limited, most don't since all relevant expenses didn't factor if they were Limited or Main Reg.

All puppies have always cost the same to breed and raise. The registration papers currently cost $29 for main and $22 for limit so if a puppy was sold less the cost of the papers that would be the only saving. I have never understood why papers could cost hundreds more when the registration fee was such a tiny fraction of the puppy price. I think a lot of people who previously bought without papers were shonked by unregistered breeders who were not able to register the puppy anyway. The difference now is that you get limit papers to prove that the puppy is indeed the one you thought you bought. So that is my final word on this as we are getting off topic a bit about Owey's sick puppy.

Owey, I hope the blood sample got away and that the puppy is hanging in there while you wait for the result. Did the "breeder" get the parents and siblings tested at the same time?