sobraon park Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Firstly i am a small breeder who goes buy all the rules and reg. i have choc labs and love them all my girls are excellently scored with 0:0 elbows and dont have one above 4 for hips. we decided to buy a male dog from a (good haha) breeder with good bloodlines i explained what we wanted and how we try and have excellent hip and elbows in our breeding dog aswell as all the other things too. the dog we were looking at was 9mnths old and from very good parents with good results. she guaranteed (which i know is impossiable to do)but she did guarentee me very low hip and elbows have an email that says so. we paid alot of money for this dog (i mean a lot)and we then transported him from nsw to qld and had him pra tested he has since turned 12mnths we just got his hip/elbow scores back much to my disapointment his scores are as follows 10:7 hips and 1:1 elbows. the average for the breed is 12-13 i rang the lady and she didnt see a problem with this score at all. i know is not the end of the world sort of scores but to me its not good enough. she then contined to tell me that if i was only breeding pets it didnt really matter anyway. i asked her if she would refund my money of what we paid for the dog and i would return him she said she wasnt in the postition to do this. i am disapointed that a breeder like this can not see the problem. not sure what or if i can do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjelkier Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I know this might seem like a silly question but did you actually see the paperwork of the parents scores or did she just tell you what they are? (I know a few people who took breeders on their word and later found out the breeder had lied and the scores were very high) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I think that statement "if you are only breeding for pets it doesn't matter" is very irresponsible. I feel for you. You are trying to do the right thing and she doesn't seem to get that. Even though technically we are not supposed to "breed for the pet market", most of our pups will end up in a family, even if they are show dogs and everyone deserves the best possible dog that we can at least attempt to produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 The dogs hip scores are below the average though so technically might fit the breeders criteria for a low score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Sorry but unless you got a guarantee in writing that the dog could be returned if his hips and elbows were over a certain score, then I think you are stuck with him. No one can guarantee hips and elbows, so either don't buy until they have been done or accept that it is in the lap of the gods. If you bought the dog to show then he can still be shown. If you bought him to be a "stud dog" then you would have no idea until he was mature, if he woudl suit any of your bitches anyway. He didn't score above the breed average, so even though you are disappointed, it isn't the end of the world. Breeding all 0:0 scores would greatly reduce the gene pool and lead to a decline in other desirable breed qualities. What I don't understand is why so many breeders on here buy a "stud dog"? It isn't like breeding cattle or sheep but more like horses where you choose the very best sire for each individual mating and take the bitch to that dog, wherever he is. In rare breeds it is different but in a numerically strong breed like Labs, I just don't get it. Some people buy a male first to show, to get into a breed and others keep a male they have breed to show but if you are not showing or competing in any field, why would you buy a male? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobraon park Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 The dogs hip scores are below the average though so technically might fit the breeders criteria for a low score. no it 12-13 all up and he is 17 all up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 The dogs hip scores are below the average though so technically might fit the breeders criteria for a low score. no it 12-13 all up and he is 17 all up oh ok, mis read it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embellish Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 sorry - but if this was me - the dog would be going back. There are many breeders of "chocolate" labs that are in it for the money and are charging absolutely ridiculous prices for puppies and dogs. The highest price I have paid for labradors is $1500 - that was from the best labrador kennel in the country - and this puppy was for showing, and has won Groups and multiple class in show awards - including specialties and nationals, and now have another puppy from the same kennel who has been to three shows and has won two class in show awards already. Hip scores so far on two bitches I have had scored from this kennel are 1:1 hips, 0:0 elbows and 0:0 hips and 0:0 elbows - the young most recent pup is yet to be scored). But I have not only got many quality dogs from this kennel - but support from the very well respected breeder, who is always there advising me along the way. Sadly, you have been sucked in by a registered puppy "farmer" - who is breeding purely for the pet market and inexperienced breeders who will pay the big $$$(no offence intended). Sadly, if you use this dog in your breeding program - you may start to see higher scores popping up in the next generation - or even the one after. For me to use this dog at stud - it would have to be "the" best example of the breed - a real stand out with qualities not able to be sought elsewhere - and then mate him to a bitch that would benefit from his "qualities" that also has extremely low scores - but for me, I would not take the chance, especially as I suspect it may not be the best example of the breed - it is just a chocloate labrador - bred for colour and not quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) The dogs hip scores are below the average though so technically might fit the breeders criteria for a low score. no it 12-13 all up and he is 17 all up oh ok, mis read it I mis-read it too. I wouldn't breed from him in that case. What I would like to know was why an 8 month old puppy was so expensive and what do you call expensive? As labs26 said, $1500 is about top dollar for really top quality Lab puppy and that is a lot less than many other breeds. With any puppy of any breed, not old enough to hip score, it is a gamble that you take. Edited June 22, 2012 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyn Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Ok first up, if it was me, he would be going back and refund would be asked for, nicely at first but be prepared to take it to court. 17 is too high although for a stud dog, particully if you expect to stand him at public stud, no one will use him, but also of a concern is is the 1 /1 elbows, while this is breedable according to breeders it is not something I would want to be looking at in a stud dog, it means that at the age of 1 year old there are signs of changes in the elbow joints. Now the dog will never have problems with a 1/1 elbow score but I as a breeder would be very unlikely to use a stud dog with the hip and elbow score of your boy.I do tell all puppy buyers that all parents are score and original paperwork is here for them to view and they get a copy when the pup is taken home, but I also tell them that there are no guarentee's, as genetics can come back and bite on the butt when least expected, having said that of course I would work out something with that buyer if there was a problem, however if I had bred your boy and was selling him for alot of money I would have done some pre lim x-rays before sale, just how much money are we talking about, because as some one has said they wouldn't pay more than $1500 for a puppy, ( I know yours was older) but $1500 is quite cheap. I also agree that it is extreamly irresponsible of the breeder to say it doen't matter as you are only going to breed pets, well it will matter if you breed pets that then have problems and you have to start refunding and paying for surgeries on the "pet" puppies, there aren't that many breeders in NSW that I am aware of that are breeding chocolates and then selling them for obsene amounts of money in fact I only know of one. Send the dog back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Ok first up, if it was me, he would be going back and refund would be asked for, nicely at first but be prepared to take it to court. 17 is too high although for a stud dog, particully if you expect to stand him at public stud, no one will use him, but also of a concern is is the 1 /1 elbows, while this is breedable according to breeders it is not something I would want to be looking at in a stud dog, it means that at the age of 1 year old there are signs of changes in the elbow joints. Now the dog will never have problems with a 1/1 elbow score but I as a breeder would be very unlikely to use a stud dog with the hip and elbow score of your boy.I do tell all puppy buyers that all parents are score and original paperwork is here for them to view and they get a copy when the pup is taken home, but I also tell them that there are no guarentee's, as genetics can come back and bite on the butt when least expected, having said that of course I would work out something with that buyer if there was a problem, however if I had bred your boy and was selling him for alot of money I would have done some pre lim x-rays before sale, just how much money are we talking about, because as some one has said they wouldn't pay more than $1500 for a puppy, ( I know yours was older) but $1500 is quite cheap. I also agree that it is extreamly irresponsible of the breeder to say it doen't matter as you are only going to breed pets, well it will matter if you breed pets that then have problems and you have to start refunding and paying for surgeries on the "pet" puppies, there aren't that many breeders in NSW that I am aware of that are breeding chocolates and then selling them for obsene amounts of money in fact I only know of one. Send the dog back It doesn't sound like the breeder is giving her this option. And in all due respect, what I personally would consider a lot of money, others who are usedto spending more, may not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobraon park Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 Ok first up, if it was me, he would be going back and refund would be asked for, nicely at first but be prepared to take it to court. 17 is too high although for a stud dog, particully if you expect to stand him at public stud, no one will use him, but also of a concern is is the 1 /1 elbows, while this is breedable according to breeders it is not something I would want to be looking at in a stud dog, it means that at the age of 1 year old there are signs of changes in the elbow joints. Now the dog will never have problems with a 1/1 elbow score but I as a breeder would be very unlikely to use a stud dog with the hip and elbow score of your boy.I do tell all puppy buyers that all parents are score and original paperwork is here for them to view and they get a copy when the pup is taken home, but I also tell them that there are no guarentee's, as genetics can come back and bite on the butt when least expected, having said that of course I would work out something with that buyer if there was a problem, however if I had bred your boy and was selling him for alot of money I would have done some pre lim x-rays before sale, just how much money are we talking about, because as some one has said they wouldn't pay more than $1500 for a puppy, ( I know yours was older) but $1500 is quite cheap. I also agree that it is extreamly irresponsible of the breeder to say it doen't matter as you are only going to breed pets, well it will matter if you breed pets that then have problems and you have to start refunding and paying for surgeries on the "pet" puppies, there aren't that many breeders in NSW that I am aware of that are breeding chocolates and then selling them for obsene amounts of money in fact I only know of one. Send the dog back i paid $3000 for the dog plus travel dna tests and hip and elbow scores. i have asked her to refund and will send the dog back and just want my $3000, at this stage it was no. i havent decided if i cn take it further or not. i am very unhappy with the hip scores but also the elbows too, she said that they were perfect. funny thats not what the x ray showed. no matter if i am breeding show stud or pets i want the best i can breed and this is not going to be with him. i know if i have had sold the dog i would be alot more concerned for the buyer and my breed (and reputation) thaks for your thoughts wish there was more people like you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Look into Consumer Affairs. You bought the dog as a stud dog, I'm assuming the breeder who sold you the dog knew this? Due to these scores, he is unfit for the intended purpose. Goods that are unfit for their intended purpose and 'do not do as they are supposed to' can be refunded. Definitely seek advice from Consumer Affairs or Fair Trading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I am so sorry you have been through this. Many folks have been in a situation where a dog has not turned out as expected after forking out lots of money (sometimes a LOT more if the dog is imported from overseas). It can be heartbreaking at times and sometimes unfortunately something we may have to live and learn from, however wrong we may feel that to be and how expensive the lesson is . First thing I would note is that there is perhaps a lesson to learn in that there really was no way of knowing what the dogs hip or elbow scores were until such time as the x-rays were done (and same for eye exam, though I gather this turned out to be clear). If guarantees were needed, it may have been better to request that these were provided before you purchased the dog (even though he was younger, PennHIP could have been done or prelim x-rays perhaps read by a specialist to give an opinion). Without the test results there is always going to be a degree of risk taking, and if ensuring they were good was a deal breaker, IMO it would be something worth doing to remove that risk. What exactly did she guarantee and what have you got in writing. When you set your requirement for a dog with 'low' hip and elbow scores, did you specify this further (as in numbers) or just use the word 'low'? What I mean here is was there agreement on what the term 'low' was when it came to the dogs hips and elbows? Her idea of low may not necessarily be the same as yours. Did you see or get a copy of the hip certificates for the sire and dam? Sit down and try and look at it all as unemotionally as possible. While I know you are upset over this, emotion just clouds logic and you need to have all the facts set out clearly. Note that an important part of any 'guarantee' involves not just that something will be a certain way, but what will happen if they are not - did she provide any information on what would happen if the dogs scores were not as agreed? This is always an important thing to ask regarding a guarantee. A basic warranty though is covered by consumer law regarding goods being 'fit for purpose'. If the breeder does not agree to take the dog back (or 'make good' via repair or replacement - repair not really being an option in this case), you could probably go the fair trading/small claims route. On a side note, I would agree with the comment made earlier too regarding stud dogs. Perhaps better than 'buying in' a dog would IMO be to seek stud services from dogs owned by others for your bitches based on what suits them best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Ok first up, if it was me, he would be going back and refund would be asked for, nicely at first but be prepared to take it to court. 17 is too high although for a stud dog, particully if you expect to stand him at public stud, no one will use him, but also of a concern is is the 1 /1 elbows, while this is breedable according to breeders it is not something I would want to be looking at in a stud dog, it means that at the age of 1 year old there are signs of changes in the elbow joints. Now the dog will never have problems with a 1/1 elbow score but I as a breeder would be very unlikely to use a stud dog with the hip and elbow score of your boy.I do tell all puppy buyers that all parents are score and original paperwork is here for them to view and they get a copy when the pup is taken home, but I also tell them that there are no guarentee's, as genetics can come back and bite on the butt when least expected, having said that of course I would work out something with that buyer if there was a problem, however if I had bred your boy and was selling him for alot of money I would have done some pre lim x-rays before sale, just how much money are we talking about, because as some one has said they wouldn't pay more than $1500 for a puppy, ( I know yours was older) but $1500 is quite cheap. I also agree that it is extreamly irresponsible of the breeder to say it doen't matter as you are only going to breed pets, well it will matter if you breed pets that then have problems and you have to start refunding and paying for surgeries on the "pet" puppies, there aren't that many breeders in NSW that I am aware of that are breeding chocolates and then selling them for obsene amounts of money in fact I only know of one. Send the dog back i paid $3000 for the dog plus travel dna tests and hip and elbow scores. i have asked her to refund and will send the dog back and just want my $3000, at this stage it was no. i havent decided if i cn take it further or not. i am very unhappy with the hip scores but also the elbows too, she said that they were perfect. funny thats not what the x ray showed. no matter if i am breeding show stud or pets i want the best i can breed and this is not going to be with him. i know if i have had sold the dog i would be alot more concerned for the buyer and my breed (and reputation) thaks for your thoughts wish there was more people like you. Ok, it sounds like you have been ripped off on price, simply because of his colour. An expensive lesson in doing your homework before breeding dogs. Hopefully you have something in writing stating that the dog was required to be suitable to use for breeding and you may be able to return him for a refund or at least get back the difference in price for an average pet Lab, so you can onsell him as a desexed pet. At this stage he has cost you the equivalent of 2-3 future stud fees. Realistically, how many litters was he likely to sire? If you are breeding right he would sire a litter or two for you and then you would move on to the next generation with an outside dog. As for standing him at stud, the chances of anyone, other than a coloured puppy farmer using him would be slim, no matter what his health status. A dog has to offer something outstanding to the breed to really have any demand at public stud and if he isn't being shown or doing well in performance no one will be interested. In most breeds, especially the popular ones, colour should make absolutely no difference to the price. At the moment Labs, BCs and SBTs are among the breeds were people are getting ripped off for so called "rare colours" from people just breeding for colour and not quality. It pays to ask around about average price in any breed before buying any dog for any purpose. I wish you well getting at least some of your money back and placing this dog as a pet. Then seek help from Lab breeders who breed for quality not colour, in finding suitable studs to use on each of your girls to get the best quality puppies you can and forget about buying a "stud dog". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embellish Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Ok first up, if it was me, he would be going back and refund would be asked for, nicely at first but be prepared to take it to court. 17 is too high although for a stud dog, particully if you expect to stand him at public stud, no one will use him, but also of a concern is is the 1 /1 elbows, while this is breedable according to breeders it is not something I would want to be looking at in a stud dog, it means that at the age of 1 year old there are signs of changes in the elbow joints. Now the dog will never have problems with a 1/1 elbow score but I as a breeder would be very unlikely to use a stud dog with the hip and elbow score of your boy.I do tell all puppy buyers that all parents are score and original paperwork is here for them to view and they get a copy when the pup is taken home, but I also tell them that there are no guarentee's, as genetics can come back and bite on the butt when least expected, having said that of course I would work out something with that buyer if there was a problem, however if I had bred your boy and was selling him for alot of money I would have done some pre lim x-rays before sale, just how much money are we talking about, because as some one has said they wouldn't pay more than $1500 for a puppy, ( I know yours was older) but $1500 is quite cheap. I also agree that it is extreamly irresponsible of the breeder to say it doen't matter as you are only going to breed pets, well it will matter if you breed pets that then have problems and you have to start refunding and paying for surgeries on the "pet" puppies, there aren't that many breeders in NSW that I am aware of that are breeding chocolates and then selling them for obsene amounts of money in fact I only know of one. Send the dog back Just to clarify - I didnt say that I wouldnt pay more than $1500, simply stated that the hightest I have paid has been $1500. I also am aware of at least 4 breeders in NSW cashing in on the chocolate's. Which are prices of $2500+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 From what I see on your website op, you yourself only breed for colour, so I'm guessing his price would be normal... Unless you had anything in writing I guess you are stuck with it it. Sorry but I just get annoyed with people who buy blindly for a colour and a 'stud' yes, cud os for doing hip scores etc, but still, do you show, do you know the correct confirmation for a lab, why did you pay that much in the first place? Sorry I'm just a bet skeptical after viewing your website... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 1. Legal issues: It's not going to be cost effective bringing in a lawyer. Small claims is a hassle, but cheap, and you don't need representation. The outcome is unpredictable if the contract was verbal, and I'm not sure what happens when someone in QLD sues someone in NSW. I suspect you're going to have to swallow bitter medicine. I had a similar thing happen with a black Lab pup from a well-regarded breeder . . . except she gave no guarantees. 2. I'm tired of chocolate Lab bashing. There are more choco Labs in Australia than there are total dogs of many less popular breeds. There are some damn fine chocolates around. Some people go for chocolate cause it's a challenge and helps narrow a very wide field of options. It's just a colour . . . only two genes are involved and neither has any known functional significance. A few generations back, yellows were rare and trendy, and there was lots of carping about 'breeding for colour'. Now, despite being a recessive colour, yellows dominate blacks in the ring. Sure, trendy colours attract some people who discriminate only for colour. The problem isn't the colour. It's the people involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indigirl Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I would send the dog back, or keep him as a pet. The harsh reality is that you cannot breed quality pups from a crap dog. This dogs scores means he is a very poor choice as a sire, and given the breeders attitude there may be other hidden health problems that have not yet come to light. It's unfair and costly, but that's how it sometimes goes in the world of dog breeding. I'm thinking you need to research more thoroughly and speak to experienced lab breeders to find a quality stud dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobraon park Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 1. Legal issues: It's not going to be cost effective bringing in a lawyer. Small claims is a hassle, but cheap, and you don't need representation. The outcome is unpredictable if the contract was verbal, and I'm not sure what happens when someone in QLD sues someone in NSW. I suspect you're going to have to swallow bitter medicine. I had a similar thing happen with a black Lab pup from a well-regarded breeder . . . except she gave no guarantees. 2. I'm tired of chocolate Lab bashing. There are more choco Labs in Australia than there are total dogs of many less popular breeds. There are some damn fine chocolates around. Some people go for chocolate cause it's a challenge and helps narrow a very wide field of options. It's just a colour . . . only two genes are involved and neither has any known functional significance. A few generations back, yellows were rare and trendy, and there was lots of carping about 'breeding for colour'. Now, despite being a recessive colour, yellows dominate blacks in the ring. Sure, trendy colours attract some people who discriminate only for colour. The problem isn't the colour. It's the people involved. completly agree i love my choc girl no matter what and they just happen to be chocolate if they were gold or black i love them just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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