Hip Dysplasia

[LOLAFOLATA]

As owner of 10mnth old giant breed pup, are there any symptoms to look for that may indicate early onset of HD?

ETA

Daisy-Mae shows signs of stiffness in hindquarters and appears lame when she first gets up from extended periods of lying down. Once she gets moving appears fine. I'm wondering if it may just be growing pains that will pass once fully mature. Have posted question in Mastiff thread also.

Will be seeing my vet as soon as we can. Were holding off on x-rays of hips/elbows to be done same time as de-sexing after first heat.

Edited June 21, 2012 by LOLAFOLATA

[Mason_Gibbs]

Sorry cant help only had experience with elbow dysplasia

[Salukifan]

Gait may be one. A dog that doesn't display much rear drive or that does a lot of "bunny hopping" would concern me. Bear in mind though that there are a myriad of causes of gait issues and that some dysplastic dogs don't display any symptoms. If you are concerned, see a knowledgeable vet. I can recommend one locally but X-rays would probably be their first step.

[SparkyTansy]

stiffness, reluctance to run, bunnyhopping

my boy started limping early - approx 7 months of age. it was in both hips, but one was worse than the other.

[Bjelkier]

My Lab showed signs very early. Bunny hopping, stiffness, limping and at 6 months he was unable to get up without help.

[LOLAFOLATA]

Gait may be one. A dog that doesn't display much rear drive or that does a lot of "bunny hopping" would concern me. Bear in mind though that there are a myriad of causes of gait issues and that some dysplastic dogs don't display any symptoms. If you are concerned, see a knowledgeable vet. I can recommend one locally but X-rays would probably be their first step.

stiffness, reluctance to run, bunnyhopping

my boy started limping early - approx 7 months of age. it was in both hips, but one was worse than the other.

My Lab showed signs very early. Bunny hopping, stiffness, limping and at 6 months he was unable to get up without help.

Thanks for replys. As never witnessing this in any of the many dogs I've had over the years (I've obviously been very lucky), condition was completely unkown to me. Wasn't until I became interested in Danes, Mastiffs & other giant breeds that I started to read more about hip/elbow scores etc.

No bunny hopping and afraid I'm not sure if her gait is un-natural. Although as you mentioned HW not much rear drive. It's like she seizes up after laying down for prolonged periods and once mobile for a while seems to be okay.

ST & Bjelkier How sad for you both. Were you able to treat or opt for surgery? Must have been dreadful to watch young vibrant puppies in so much discomfort.

Have had some advice from Mastiff breeder and it appears it may be nothing to worry about straight away. Vet did mention she appeared to have growing pains in her lower legs on our first visits at 16 & 20wks. Could well be the case here. Hope so anyway. We'll be seeing him next week.

Edited June 22, 2012 by LOLAFOLATA

[espinay2]

Because I am lazy, I have cut and pasted from my webpage:

Hip Dysplasia is an abnormal formation of the hip socket which in its most severe form can cause lameness and painful arthritis in the hip joints. Though found in many breeds, large and giant breeds can be particularly susceptible to Hip Dysplasia. The causes of Hip Dysplasia are considered to be genetic, but diet and environment can also play a role. Environmental influences can include things like overweight condition, injury, overexertion of the hip joint or a ligament tear at a young age, or repetitive motion on a forming joint (i.e. jogging or walking on lead particularly on hard surfaces with a puppy or young growing dog).

Dogs with Hip Dysplasia may exhibit signs of stiffness or soreness after rising from rest, reluctance to exercise, a bunny-hopping style of running or other abnormal gait, lameness, pain, reluctance to stand on rear legs, jump up, or climb stairs, or wasting away of the muscle mass in the hip area. While some dogs may show signs early on, many affected dogs do not show clinical signs until well into adulthood. No one can predict when or even if a dysplastic dog will start showing clinical signs of lameness due to pain. X-rays however, can confirm the presence of hip dysplasia and the degree of change in the hip joint often well before there are any outward signs.

What you do at home can help or hinder too. Here is info on a recent study which backs up what large breed breeders have been telling puppy buyers for years: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120326112842.htm

Using stairs, jumping andrough play can cause damage to growing bones and joints as they cause the limbsto jolt sharply, which can cause tears and chips in the soft cartilage. These tears and chips can cause the bonesand joints to break down in parts and not form correctly as they grow. Longwalks on lead wear the puppy out, can make them sore (even though they may notshow it much) and does not allow thepup to rest when it needs to keep going until the end of the walk. The repetitive motion of the walk,particularly when on harder surfaces can also put stress on growing joints andligaments, also causing them to break down. Pups may compensate for the soreparts if they need to keep going, which may then affect other muscles, jointsand ligaments due to their irregular gait. The absolute best form of exercise for a young growing large breed dog is free running and play, particularly on an undulating surface (e.g. small hills and slopes). Note that not taking your pup on long walks does not mean you never take your pup out on lead, as taking it out to a wide variety of places is important. However, these outings should be viewed not as physical exercise, but as training, socialisation and mental stimulation.

If you are not doing it now, I would also perhaps add Vit C to the food. While debated, IMO it is a good addition for a growing pup to help with proper bone and joint development.

It may be a range of things. Growing pains (pano) - but this can be told via x-ray as the inflammation in the bone will show up; issues with knees rather than hips; a growth spurt causing the rear to be high can throw off gait at times. If you are concerned, then yes a visit to a good vet is warranted, but as suggested x-rays will really be the only way to see anything concrete. If you do get x-rays though, I suggest reading by a specialist before you take any major action.

HTH

[Mason_Gibbs]

And remember not all dogs that bunny hop have hip dysplasia. My labs hips are fine but he still runs like a pup at almost 12 months and has an odd gait. Due to his elbow dysplasia the specialist xrayed his hips at the same time as his elbow surgery and his are normal for a lab. If you are very worried get an ortho specialist to do X-rays :)

Edited June 23, 2012 by Mason_Gibbs

[Holmesy]

I had my 7 month old Bullmastiff x-rayed while I had her in to be desexed. The x-rays indicated that she has Hip Dysplasia but it's still early days to see how severe. She doesn't bunny hop, but she can be slow to rise and when she walks, her hips sort of have an exaggerated sway.

Not wanting to derail this thread, but has anyone had experience with having such a young dog diagnosed with this and how did you treat it? I have been considering one of the 3 surgery types but I am not sure which way to go (Triple Pelvic Osteotomy , Femoral Head Excision or Osteotomy or total hip replacement)

It is still early days for Tin Tin, but I am afraid if I don't make a decision relatively soon, it might make things worse and become arthritic too.

Can anyone recommend a good vet/surgeon for this type of problem in the Sydney/Southwest Sydney area please?

Thanks

[Mason_Gibbs]

Best thing to do is get them rexrayed when they have stopped growing and then let ortho specialist decide which surgery your dog will benefit most from. On the day our specialist xrayed ( surgery day) he phoned and changed his plan as originally they were going to just clean up the joint but it had gotten worse and so they needed to do an ulna ostectomy. Find a surgeon that u trust and go from there

[Bjelkier]

Gait may be one. A dog that doesn't display much rear drive or that does a lot of "bunny hopping" would concern me. Bear in mind though that there are a myriad of causes of gait issues and that some dysplastic dogs don't display any symptoms. If you are concerned, see a knowledgeable vet. I can recommend one locally but X-rays would probably be their first step.

stiffness, reluctance to run, bunnyhopping

my boy started limping early - approx 7 months of age. it was in both hips, but one was worse than the other.

My Lab showed signs very early. Bunny hopping, stiffness, limping and at 6 months he was unable to get up without help.

Thanks for replys. As never witnessing this in any of the many dogs I've had over the years (I've obviously been very lucky), condition was completely unkown to me. Wasn't until I became interested in Danes, Mastiffs & other giant breeds that I started to read more about hip/elbow scores etc.

No bunny hopping and afraid I'm not sure if her gait is un-natural. Although as you mentioned HW not much rear drive. It's like she seizes up after laying down for prolonged periods and once mobile for a while seems to be okay.

ST & Bjelkier How sad for you both. Were you able to treat or opt for surgery? Must have been dreadful to watch young vibrant puppies in so much discomfort.

Have had some advice from Mastiff breeder and it appears it may be nothing to worry about straight away. Vet did mention she appeared to have growing pains in her lower legs on our first visits at 16 & 20wks. Could well be the case here. Hope so anyway. We'll be seeing him next week.

Glucosamine in his dinner and keeping him very lean as well as swimming.

We have been swimming him about every week for the last 9 years and it made the world of difference to his movement. For many years he was fine but now as he gets older we are seeing him getting stiff and sore again. Our vet thinks we will need to start giving him something for the pain soon.

[SparkyTansy]

ST & Bjelkier How sad for you both. Were you able to treat or opt for surgery? Must have been dreadful to watch young vibrant puppies in so much discomfort.

We treat with glucosamine, ester C, careful management of exercise, and acupuncture. he is 6 and while he does have some discomfort particularly in winter, he doesn't get a lot of painkillers.

he recently fell over though and has been rather stiff so managing that with painkillers and additional acupunture.

[Salukifan]

Got another symptom to watch out for - anal gland issues. Hip and pelvic problems can lead to impacted anal glands.

[LOLAFOLATA]

Thanks everyone for info - very interesting.

Had Daisy-Mae to vet on Monday. From physical exam he thought there was a problem. Mentioned TPO and said I'd need to have x-rays done pretty soon, if I decide on this procedure as it would have to be done before she's 12mnths. Bit numb during consult and didn't ask all the right questions that I'm thinking of now.

She's a good girl and has come in heat well and truly so original plan to do de-sex & x-rays together can go ahead in around 3 weeks.

Have done some reading up and this procedure has to be done before fully mature/grown. I thought being a Mastiff she wouldn't be finished growing until 3yrs which would give me a bit more time to review condition & consider options. Has anyone had this surgery done and on what breed? I'm interested in recuperation time and re-hab as well as approximate cost on larger breeds.

HW can you please PM me your recommendations for specialist surgeons? Are there any locally? Once I have x-rays I'd like to get second opinion anyway.

Interesting about the anal glands. Lola's about 8 and starting to stiffen up in back end. Recently had course of cartrophen. She's had real trouble with her glands for the last couple of years with nothing prior to that.

ETA

Wish we had a hydrotherapy pool closer than Berrima.

Edited June 27, 2012 by LOLAFOLATA

[espinay2]

I have very mixed feelings about TPO surgery largely becaue I feel it is currently being very much over prescribed and performed.

It appears to be the latest money making venture for many vets - the latest 'in thing'.

What I would suggest to anyone contemplating it is that you relax and take your time sorting out the pros and cond beforehand. Do NOT be rushed or guilted into it!

First step I would recommend is x-rays. You can't tell anything concrete without them. You can NOT tell wither a dog does or does not have hip issues by palpating the hips. And any vet that does try to give you any kind of definitive diagnosis like this is IMO not one I would be trusting.

Second thing is to remember that the average vet can NOT read x-rays properly (I wish I had a dollar for every time a vet has told me confidently what the results of a hip x-ray would be when the actual official hip score is in fact totally different). This is particularly the case for a young dog. Even specialists have difficulty reading them for still growing dogs and the hip score system used in Australia can NOT be used on immature dogs as it is in no way accurate if the bones are still developing. Large dogs (such as my Pyrs) we don't do hip scores until two years of age for this reason. The ONLY way to get an accurate reading on a young dog is to get x-rays done for PennHIP (which requires 3 x-rays rather than just one and the person taking it must be accreddited to do so) and send them to the US to have them assessed. PennHIP assessment can ONLY be done in the US - no one in Australia is trained to do it). Your vet can NOT read them. So please don't just rely on the word of your local vet that the 'hips look dodgy and the dog will need an operation' without this specialist advice first as basically they are 'blowing it out their a (to put it politely).

Third is to remember that even a dog with 'above average' score for a breed may still be perfectly fine and this is not a death sentence. Remember that 'average' is the MIDDLE of the bell curve for those dogs that have been tested. The average is ued for breeding purposes as a guide so that breeders may work to lower that overall average over time. It seems that many of the vets recommending the operation are doing so 'just in case' because the dog is a 'target' breed (read large) or because the hips are not 100 percent perfect. 'Normal' hips includes a much wider range than just 0. 'Mild' hip Dysplasia is not generally considered until a dog has a range (under the AVA system used in Australia) of 26-35 total. See the following chart for example that compares a number of scoring systems in use (apologies the table keeps scrambling):

OFA (USA)/ FCI (European) / BVA (UK/Australia)/ SV (Germany)

Exellent/ A-1 / 0-4 (no > 3/hip) / Normal

Good/ A-2 / 5-10 (no > 6/hip)/ Normal

Fair / B-1 / 11-18 / Normal

Borderline / B-2 / 19-25/ Fast Normal

Mild / C / 26-35 / Noch Zugelassen

Moderate / D / 36-50/ Mittlere

Severe / E / 51-106 / Schwere

It seems to me that many times surgery is being recommended by vets for growing dogs when in many cases the dogs would have normal hips with minimal problems once grown, or mild symptoms which can be easily managed (note I have had a dog with a score of 65 and she was managed will until she passed from an unrelated condition at 10 years of age. With management she had a full, happy and active life). I am not saying that it is not perhaps a good option in some cases. IMO though I would personally only be considering it for the more severe cases after thorough and proper diagnosis and I would NOT be succumbing to any guilt trips to 'do it now or our dog will suffer' which seems to be the way some vets are convincing caring owners to put their dogs under the knife. But that is JMHO.

Edited June 30, 2012 by espinay2

[dancinbcs]

Don't get x-rays done by just any vet. Even in the practice I go to, that deals almost exclusively with breeders, only one of the vets does the hip x-rays because getting them right is quite complicated and if they are not perfect the result can be out by a lot. You need one that does regular hip x-rays every week.

The only ones I trust to give any sort of indication of possible hip problems from palpation are the chiros. Mine are very good at predicting good or bad hips but vets just don't know what to feel for. So maybe try a chiro first, then look for a breeder's vet that is more used to doing x-rays. Ask your dog's breeder to recommend someone.