Difficult Sitiuations

[dogsaremyworld]

I have two dogs, both male, won't mention the breed as I don't wish to incriminate, but in Group 7 med to large minority breed in this country, from the same breeder, who has become a mentor and a friend to me.

They are co-owned, but when i got them the breeder assured me that he would not interfere with any decisions, but simply guide me in the right direction when i came across any problems. Fast forward four years, and I have been after a bitch to add to our kennel since I got the second boy two and a half years ago. He does not live in the same state as me, and i rarely see him, except for at shows, but we do facebook each other and phone every other week, or whenever we have good results.

Every time i see a bitch advertised, or hear of one from word of mouth, I email him pics and pedigrees. For many reasons, he has rejected 47 different pups from kennels in Australia and overseas, and keeps promising me that he 'will get me one'.

Reasons for rejecting the pups include;

- the people are not nice

- they are from puppy farmers

- the lines do not match in

- too big

- too small

- parents have HD

- sister died early, no one knows why

- don't like the grandfather

- eyes weepy

- tailset too high

- havent had any experience with them before

- screwed him over before

- was mean in the ring to him

- don't like the markings on the mother

- didn't like the size of the foot

- didn't like the colour

- looked cowhocked in one picture

- he heard the people sold substandard dogs to new people

- he heard the people were getting out of showing and were just breeding for money

- woman divorced his best friend

- they won't give you a puppy so don't even try

- etc, etc, etc, those are the ones i found when looking back in emails.

For differing reasons, including his bitches not birthing bitches, to other people in our breed getting them, he has had around 8 litters in the past 4 years, and we still have no bitch puppy. He has also promised that he will get me one from other breeders, all who have had litters but still no dice.

What do i do? If i get a bitch from someone else he will be difficult, and because he co-owns my dogs I am scared that he will be vengeful, but if i keep waiting I am doubtful I will ever get a bitch to add to our team. I really want to start my own lines, and kennel, and have had a prefix for over a year (since the last bitch he promised was coming, but he ended up selling it to someone else that he apparently owed a bitch to) I don't think I am a bad owner, I have shown both the boys to thier titles, and have won multiple BIG, RUBIS and RUBISS (just can't seem to crack that BIS!!!LOL) and I love them dearly, so I don't understand why this is happening!?!?!?!

Some of the reasons that he has knocked back potential puppies are probably true, and I agreed with him, but the personal ones had nothing to do with the dogs. I personally have had no problems with any of the people, and have been offered many bitches that i have knocked back as I don't want to ruin the relationship i have with him. After all, he trusted me, a new exhibitor with his dogs and has been very helpful while i was learning to show. But I realised today that I have been offered a pup from almost every kennel in this country including some top winners, and ALL of them he has rejected for a reason or another, I really have no one else to go to.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I'd set him a deadline - how long is unreasonable? It's possible he's unable to find a bitch puppy from other breeders because they feel the same way about him as he does about them. Nobody likes being nitpicked.

I think I would do my own research to find a nice breeder, and get on their waiting list.

And I wouldn't tell him.

As part of my research - I'd investigate what co-owner really means and if he could enforce it. If he could, I'd consider returning my dogs, or getting a bitch from someone else and breeding it with a dog that isn't one of his.

Or I'd go to a rescue, get a puppy and take up agility.

[Rysup]

Sometimes you just have to do what is right for you. It sounds as if he is now making excuses, you cannot reject THAT many puppies!!

I would just be saying to him, that you are going to be getting a bitch within the next 12 months, and that while you would like his approval, its not necessary, and that you have waited long enough. Just go out on your own and do it. If he is a good friend, and a reasonable one, he will be happy and encouraging to you. If he spits the dummy and tries to get vengeful, well at least you know where you stand.\

I've been in a slightly similar situation, except that I GOT a puppy from someone else, and my friend spat the dummy big time, and things went terribly sour, and now we have no contact, and I have blocked him in all the online avenues he has tried to contact me and threaten me. While I sometimes miss the friendship, I am glad I found out when I did what he was like. Better early on, than after 10 or 15 years in that breed.

If your "mentor" cannot accept that you need to get a nice bitch from someone else, well really that is his problem, and I really suggest you move on NOW! If he chucks a spaz and does something that means you cannot show/breed with your current boys, at least you find out now, and not later.

[Bjelkier]

Sometimes you just have to do what is right for you. It sounds as if he is now making excuses, you cannot reject THAT many puppies!!

I would just be saying to him, that you are going to be getting a bitch within the next 12 months, and that while you would like his approval, its not necessary, and that you have waited long enough. Just go out on your own and do it. If he is a good friend, and a reasonable one, he will be happy and encouraging to you. If he spits the dummy and tries to get vengeful, well at least you know where you stand.\

I've been in a slightly similar situation, except that I GOT a puppy from someone else, and my friend spat the dummy big time, and things went terribly sour, and now we have no contact, and I have blocked him in all the online avenues he has tried to contact me and threaten me. While I sometimes miss the friendship, I am glad I found out when I did what he was like. Better early on, than after 10 or 15 years in that breed.

If your "mentor" cannot accept that you need to get a nice bitch from someone else, well really that is his problem, and I really suggest you move on NOW! If he chucks a spaz and does something that means you cannot show/breed with your current boys, at least you find out now, and not later.

I've been there too!

dogsaremyworld a good friend once gave me some wonderful advice when I was in a similar position as yourself. She said "in the end you should only be thinking of one thing, your kennel. You need to do what is best for Skyforger and stop worrying about everyone else."

Best advice I've ever gotten.

You need to do whats best your your kennel and as Rysup said, your 'mentor' needs to deal with that fact you will do your own thing. If it starts WW3 then, well at least you found out sooner rather then later.

[Sheridan]

And this kind of thing is precisely why I will never go into co-ownership with a breeder.

[Bug]

When you got your first male of this breed from your co-owner you obviously had done your research and had enough judgement to find a responsible breeder who offered you a 'show quality' pup that fulfilled its potential. You should trust your own judgement to do the same again. After 4 years in the breed you have some idea of what you like and what health checks to are desirable in the breed. Look at what other bloodlines have been successfully combined with those you already have but remember that when breeding, the dog in your backyard is not always the most suitable choice for your bitch. I agree with other comments about explaining to your co-owner that you have waited long enough. Find out where you stand with co-ownership but I am sure it is true that registration papers are not proof of ownership - just of registration but you do not want to get into a situation where you are stressed about losing the dogs you love. As suggested, try approaching your co-owner and explaining nicely and if it does not work then cut the apron strings and venture out in the world of showing and breeding without your mentor. Trust your own judgement but realise that after only 4 years in a breed there is still a lot to learn.

There is a big difference between mentor and control freak. People should be given advice but you can't breed for other people. Your co-breeder seems to be like so many in the dog world today - cannot see any good in anything that is not in their own backyard.

A word of warning. You have had a bad experience with co-owing males. Co-owning females is a minefield!

[espinay2]

Do what is right for YOU (as Bjelkier said!)

And remember, your dog may not turn out to be the best match for the bitch anyway.

I wouldn't be trying necessarily to choose a bitch to go with your dog (though if the stars align and he is suitable for her, and you can use him GREAT).

Rather I would be looking to get a bitch from whatever source you consider best to be your foundation.

Get his opinion most certainly if you like, but the thing to remember is that in the end, it is only an opinion and the final decision is yours.

You assess the opinion as PART of the information you use in making the decision.

If there is a logical reason why you consider the choice to be a valid one for you (set out all the pros and cons on paper - and try not to let impatience or emotion take too much of a front seat), then that is your choice to make.

[ellz]

Have been through a slightly similar situation to this. It has coloured all of my recent dealings with other breeders.

I purchased a dog from a well known and successful breeder for what was a typical fairly high price for the breed back then. At the time there was no real discussion about restriction of breeding, just that I would need to be careful with which bitches he was bred to for various reasons and in particular a kennel was mentioned who were highly suspected to have major eye problems in their dogs at that stage. It took some time for the papers to arrive because it was the time of the ANKC changeover to a national registration database and when the papers arrived, the dog was on a 20 year lease and not the outright ownership I had expected. Biggest mistake was not dealing with it then and there, however at that stage I had no real reason to doubt that all the breeder wanted was to ensure that I could not transfer the dog's ownership to another party.

The dog was injured as a puppy and didn't start a show career until he was 10 months of age, but won a juicy Specialty Best In Show in Sydney at his first show which brought him to many people's attention.

A little later, a few stud enquiries started rolling in so not knowing the breed all that well, I referred back to the breeder for advice. For some time there was always something wrong with every bitch, a list not unlike that in the OP. And I'm talking some GORGEOUS bitches that could potentially have come to my boy but even multiple BIS winners were being knocked back summarily.

There came a point when the dog was about 3 that I decided enough was enough and agreed for him to be used at stud. WELL...did that start some major explosions. To the point where I was receiving letters from lawyers, nasty phone calls and threats to "repossess" my dog. The first letter stated that I had violated a lease agreement and that I had to return the dog and receive my "lease fee" back. To which I replied, you show me a copy of that lease agreement and I will take it to my legal representative for further advice....which ended that route but opened into the next.

Over the years, that dog went to about 7 bitches in total, including 3 litters of my own. I had never intended to pimp him out and I did not do so even after the furore. In the years of his life, due to their "friends in high places" he was de-registered, put on Limited Registration, his puppies were de-registered and others put on Limited Registration (all without a paper trail or my signature) and all of this was halted by the ANKC at a meeting some years later when representatives from two states asked that the matter be tabled on my behalf to end the continual crap which cost me many thousands of dollars in legal fees and my marriage (as a result of the stress and angst).

The last time I spoke to the breeders personally was on the day of his 7th birthday when the breeders rang and offered me what I paid for him for me to send him back. I laughed and suggested that $500 for a proven, Specialty Best In Show winning, Royal BOB and group winning champion was a gross underestimation of their own breeding program. My then husband yelled out something rather loud and unmentionable about their parentage in the background and they hung up, never to be heard from again.

The fact that that dog was the youngest male Specialty BIS winning dog in the history of the breed and the repeat breeding wasn't as successful has never been acknowledged and to this day he still isn't on their website but that's just collateral damage. I still go down in history as being one of the only people to have ever retained ownership of their dog bred by that particular kennel.

[cowanbree]

I think the question you have to ask yourself is do you want him making your decisions going forward? It strikes me he is behaving in a very controlling manner. Are you ever going to be able to make your own decisions or is he going to want his name on every puppy you ever register?

Personally I would pick a bitch myself, try to include him in the process but if he stalls again buy it anyway and see how it goes. Potentially it could be a bit difficult with your boys and he could stop you using them at stud but sometimes you have to lose a little to make gains. A mentor should be there to offer advise not control your every move.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

If the breeder is blocking all avenues, I suppose I would put the question to them that way - ie, "each suggestion I've made you've not been keen on, what would you suggest I do?".

I think you know the answer to your question already, otherwise you would not have written out that huge long list. You've got a hard decision in front of you and I think Bjelkier's suggestion is very sound - what will be the best decision for the path you want to travel?

[puglvr]

You know what. Find your potential bitch and be prepared for his response. Tell him not to worry about who is who and who did what. Look at the dog, and then when he points out the bad, counter with the good and how if there is a fault that maybe your boy is strong enough in that feature to improve it in the pups. Show him you know the breed as well.

[Sir Sniffalot]

We had a similar situation and the co owner of my boy had issues with every litter or breeder we looked at getting a bitch from. An old friend said to me " if your worst enemy has the dog you want to use or the lines your after you ask them, personal feeling aside your here for the betterment of the breed"

In the end we bought a bitch l told the co owner of my boy that my OH bought it as a gift for me l didn't even know he was planning it until we picked her up. l ended up using an outside stud for her mating. 3 years down the track we are all friends and he has a pup from her.