Husband Wants Me To Return Pup

[NOCTRL]

Our stafford had mange as a pup, probably about the same age as yours. It was treated with oral ivermectin from the vet and he's happy, healthy and looking spunky. Its certainly lot a lifetime sentence like you're making it sound.

Unless you're going to be breeding from it, surely it's no reason to return the pup? Nearly ALL pups carry the demodex mite, it's often bought out when the immune system is low which gives it a chance to multiply and thats when you get your symptoms showing.

Far out it's not like the dog has three legs or anything

[Squinter]

No it *may* not be a life sentence, I was purely going by what the vet said and none of what he said was positive. He basically said we would be fighting an uphill battle for the life of the dog and it will be costly and time consuming, more than likely continually reoccurring for the life of the dog. He said by about age 4 he would probably have thickened black skin and no hair on his legs etc....but as I said I am getting another opinion.

I have to take the pup back to the vet this morning as he is having an adverse reaction to the ivermectin.

I want to keep the dog and just desex, keep as a pet - but the point is we paid a lot for this dog under the understanding it was a good show/breeding prospect and it is not. That is what my husband is so annoyed about.

And yes bad luck does happen, maybe it was just bad luck.

[Scales of Justice]

No it *may* not be a life sentence, I was purely going by what the vet said and none of what he said was positive. He basically said we would be fighting an uphill battle for the life of the dog and it will be costly and time consuming, more than likely continually reoccurring for the life of the dog. He said by about age 4 he would probably have thickened black skin and no hair on his legs etc....but as I said I am getting another opinion.

I have to take the pup back to the vet this morning as he is having an adverse reaction to the ivermectin.

I want to keep the dog and just desex, keep as a pet - but the point is we paid a lot for this dog under the understanding it was a good show/breeding prospect and it is not. That is what my husband is so annoyed about.

And yes bad luck does happen, maybe it was just bad luck.

Talk to another vet. Get a second opinion.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Scales of Justice

[espinay2]

1. as mentioned - get a second opinion. Ask the breeder to recommend a vet for the opinion perhaps. I find the doom and gloom of your vet interesting, particularly so early on in the treatment.

2. Keep the breeder in the loop on the dogs progress. Ask their opinion (giving the benefit of the doubt here as I don't know their side of the story - good communication is always important though.)

3. What is in your contract with the breeder (do you have one?). Even more important to follow any requirements in the contract and work with the breeder when it comes to deciding if the pup will indeed be suitable for show and/or breeding. If/when the demodex clears, you may have no problem showing the dog. Your choice based on research then on the breeding issue and that needs to be discussed with the breeder too.

4. You have several options open to you - as mentioned returning it to the breeder is the first one (and yes, PTS may be an option if the condition is very severe - if you are going to become a breeder yourself, you will learn that sometimes these hard decisions need to be made). Also realise that what the breeder does with the dog once they have it back is THEIR decision based on their own opinion, research and understanding of the situation as well as their own morals and beliefs (and being different doesnt mean they are always necessarily wrong). You can only control the decisions YOU make in your OWN kennel. Other options include cutting your losses, desexing the pup and either rehoming it in a pet home yourself or keeping it yourself (if you desex you may still have the option to show in neuter class too).

There are lots of avenues for you to take. First thing you need to do though is try and take emotion out of the equasion and look at the issue objectively. Read up as much as you can on Demodex from good sources the Merck Vet Manual is a good starting point and available online. Read up as much as you can on the prevalence of the issue in your breed (try international forums etc where serious breeders hang out or search for articles and info - enter the word 'demodex' and your breed name in a search engine and go from there). Discuss with your breeder (so they are part of the solution rather than being confrontational) and take it from there. The more info you have, the better your decision making will be.

[BC Crazy]

No it *may* not be a life sentence, I was purely going by what the vet said and none of what he said was positive. He basically said we would be fighting an uphill battle for the life of the dog and it will be costly and time consuming, more than likely continually reoccurring for the life of the dog. He said by about age 4 he would probably have thickened black skin and no hair on his legs etc....but as I said I am getting another opinion.

I have to take the pup back to the vet this morning as he is having an adverse reaction to the ivermectin.

I want to keep the dog and just desex, keep as a pet - but the point is we paid a lot for this dog under the understanding it was a good show/breeding prospect and it is not. That is what my husband is so annoyed about.

And yes bad luck does happen, maybe it was just bad luck.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make Squinter. Yes my girl had a bout of this when she was little BUT I brought her on Limited Register & she was desexed & all is swell. She is a wonderful pet. You on the

other hand brought this pup on Main Register with the thought of breeding etc down the track, now your hopes may not happen.Your husband is annoyed & rightly so IMHO. Disappointed too !

Money too is another factor in this naturally.

Look I really feel for you because you have become attached to the little pup & this is a terrible situation to be in & it sounds like quite a severe case of Demodex, going by what you have said.

I am no vet but when Stella had it she just had slight hair loss around one eye, nowhere else & she never had another issue with it.

I would be getting another vets opinion & talking to the breeder, as others have already said. Good luck with what you choose to do. Sorry you have to endure this as this is not how it is suppose to be when getting a new pup :)

[dancinbcs]

No it *may* not be a life sentence, I was purely going by what the vet said and none of what he said was positive. He basically said we would be fighting an uphill battle for the life of the dog and it will be costly and time consuming, more than likely continually reoccurring for the life of the dog. He said by about age 4 he would probably have thickened black skin and no hair on his legs etc....but as I said I am getting another opinion.

I have to take the pup back to the vet this morning as he is having an adverse reaction to the ivermectin.

I want to keep the dog and just desex, keep as a pet - but the point is we paid a lot for this dog under the understanding it was a good show/breeding prospect and it is not. That is what my husband is so annoyed about.

And yes bad luck does happen, maybe it was just bad luck.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make Squinter. Yes my girl had a bout of this when she was little BUT I brought her on Limited Register & she was desexed & all is swell. She is a wonderful pet. You on the

other hand brought this pup on Main Register with the thought of breeding etc down the track, now your hopes may not happen.Your husband is annoyed & rightly so IMHO. Disappointed too !

Money too is another factor in this naturally.

Look I really feel for you because you have become attached to the little pup & this is a terrible situation to be in & it sounds like quite a severe case of Demodex, going by what you have said.

I am no vet but when Stella had it she just had slight hair loss around one eye, nowhere else & she never had another issue with it.

I would be getting another vets opinion & talking to the breeder, as others have already said. Good luck with what you choose to do. Sorry you have to endure this as this is not how it is suppose to be when getting a new pup :)

Localised demodex around the eyes used to be very common in BC between 3-5 months and in bitches having a first litter but is a lot less so these days and I have no idea why. No one ever thought there was a hereditary problem so they were bred from with no obvious connection to affected offspring except when a mother was affected, when actually raising puppies, then some of the litter would also be affected at about 12 weeks. In those days we used to treat it with Ectodec wash that was applied weekly all over the dog for three weeks. If you used it as a spot treatment the problem came back if the dog was stressed again but if you did it all over it cured them for life. Nearly all dogs have demodex mites on their skin but they only cause localised demodex if the dog is under physical stress, like pregnancy, vaccinations or illness and this can allow the mites to multiply too much and invade the skin. But I have never even heard of a case of generalised demodex in a BC.

Now we know the immune system plays a bigger part in demodex and it would seem that hereditary factors might be a big contributor to generalised demodex. It does seem to be much more common in some breeds and they tend to be short coated breeds. I would never breed from a dog with generalised demodex and would consider pts if the first round of treatment didn't work.

If the op's puppy can be successfully treated without needing ongoing lifelong expense then keeping the puppy to show might be an option. Not every show puppy turns out good enough to be bred from anyway. That is the luck of the draw and no breeder can guarantee that a dog will win or be suitable to breed when it is mature. Nature has it's own agenda sometimes depite the best efforts of the breeder. If however the second opinion also deems that this will be a chronic case needing ongoing treatment then return to the breeder to be pts would be the best option all round.

[BC Crazy]

Totally agree dancinbcs. It is the luck of the draw when you purchase a puppy even if it's from the very best of breeders. Breeders can't make any guarantee's. These things can happen.

I do think stress is a big contributer to this condition. Stella is & always has been a very nervous girl. But I do keep her on the best diet I can & also add vitamins, I use Troy Behave etc to her diet so her immune system

doesn't become run down as my vet suggested & to help her with her stress levels so far so good.

The op's puppy sounds as if it has it much more severe, legs etc. I don't know enough about it to say any more than what I have. What you recommend makes perfect sense to me. As unfortunate as it is for the op.

Edited June 14, 2012 by BC Crazy

[minimax]

Our stafford had mange as a pup, probably about the same age as yours. It was treated with oral ivermectin from the vet and he's happy, healthy and looking spunky. Its certainly lot a lifetime sentence like you're making it sound.

Unless you're going to be breeding from it, surely it's no reason to return the pup? Nearly ALL pups carry the demodex mite, it's often bought out when the immune system is low which gives it a chance to multiply and thats when you get your symptoms showing.

Far out it's not like the dog has three legs or anything

Did you even bother to read the original post, where they said they were going to breed and show the pup?

[Dame Aussie]

I feel for you, horrible situation to be in.

If it were me I would keep pup as a pet and see how the condition progressed.

This is only what I would do and I understand it may not be the same for you, especially when you've paid a lot of money for a show/breeding prospect.

Good luck with it.

[Sandra777]

Our stafford had mange as a pup, probably about the same age as yours. It was treated with oral ivermectin from the vet and he's happy, healthy and looking spunky. Its certainly lot a lifetime sentence like you're making it sound.

Unless you're going to be breeding from it, surely it's no reason to return the pup? Nearly ALL pups carry the demodex mite, it's often bought out when the immune system is low which gives it a chance to multiply and thats when you get your symptoms showing.

Far out it's not like the dog has three legs or anything

Noctrl - generalised demodex is a VERY big deal. Sometimes it can't be treated. Some dogs don't respond to ivermectin. No ethical breeder would consider breeding from an animal which has had generalised demodex. Sounds like your dog had localised demodex so you can thank your lucky stars you didn't have to face the very real dilemma of whether to keep trying to treat a dog which is obviously suffering.

A dog with three legs is in a way better place than a dog with generalised demodex!

[persephone]

A dog with three legs is in a way better place than a dog with generalised demodex!

OOh yeah!

I know of an older bitch who suffered the whelping and loss of a pup ... she then developed a really bad demodex , which left her missing heaps of hair , some infection , and a lot of discomfort.

A couple of times it was looking grim,and euthanasia was mentioned but 4 months later, with an all-you-can -eat raw diet , antibiotics and other medication , vitamin C and other supplements , and weekly scrubs , she looked much happier and almost fully coated again .

The vet thought stress from losing the pup was a big factor, apparently.

it is NOT something to make light of

[Squinter]

Well, we have been screamed at, sworn at and verbally abused by the breeder for suggesting there is anything wrong with a dog from her. She is completely non-negotiable and told us we would be charged with harassment if we called her again (we left two messages, she called me once and hung up on me, then my husband called her and she hung up after screaming at him so he tried to call back and she said we are harassing her). So it looks like we have paid above the odds for a very expensive pet.

Lucky he is a lovely dog and tolerating his treatments well so far. I hope no one else ever has to deal with this woman. I wish there was a way to make her give us a partial refund.

[Salukifan]

I'm sure your state Dept of Fair Trading and the local small claims court could assist you to recover some of the costs of your purchase.

[tlc]

I agree with HD, You would have signed a contract yea?

What a terrible situation to be in. What an awful breeder to deal with, surely she would realise you are going to tell anyone you can of your bad experience with her as the pups breeder. Is she listed here on DOL?

[Guest english.ivy]

Well, we have been screamed at, sworn at and verbally abused by the breeder for suggesting there is anything wrong with a dog from her. She is completely non-negotiable and told us we would be charged with harassment if we called her again (we left two messages, she called me once and hung up on me, then my husband called her and she hung up after screaming at him so he tried to call back and she said we are harassing her). So it looks like we have paid above the odds for a very expensive pet.

Lucky he is a lovely dog and tolerating his treatments well so far. I hope no one else ever has to deal with this woman. I wish there was a way to make her give us a partial refund.

Oh no, sounds horrible

I would be taking it further if you can afford to, as your pup is already costing a lot of money.

Wish you and your family all the best and your puppy a full recovery.

[dancinbcs]

I also suggest you start another thread in the health forum with photos of your puppy showing the demodex (asking for other's experiences with generalised demodex) and include his full name and who his parents are to alert others that may have related dogs that there may be a problem in the lines. If you own the dog outright there is nothing to stop you naming him and even publishing his pedigree so long as you don't refer it back to this thread or make any comments re his breeder.

[Alyosha]

If the matter is to be pursued legally that is not a good idea.

[Salukifan]

If the breeder of this dog is listed on DOL, I would be letting Troy know.

[Squinter]

No I don't think it would be a great idea to name them on here. And she has still not given me any papers anyway so I can't write all the details down here. The puppy's skin is looking a little better as he has been on antibiotics and ear drops for over a week so the secondary stuff is clearing but he still has both front legs, stomach and back legs with patchy hair loss and a moth eaten appearance.

The breeder said if it is as bad as I say I should send it back to her and she will "just have the F***ing thing killed then". Way to have the best interests of the dogs at heart all we asked for was a partial refund as the dog was not what she had told us it was. She still would have made money out of it. Sorry I am so angry, waiting to hear back on some legal advice before proceeding further.

[tlc]

I really feel for you, its a terrible situation to be in, you are already ended to the pup and to think this "person" and I use that term lightly she sounds like a horrible person will have the pup its is just heartbreaking. Hopefully the pup will get better and you can put it all behind you. I guess it depends how much you are willing to fight, do you have a copy of your contract? It should state about the dogs health etc and with your vets support you should be able to recoup your money, or at least some of it. Probably depends on whats in the contract. You did the right thing going to a registered breeder but its hard to tell if they are ethical, theres a lot about who aren't!!