espinay2 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 This is essentially what the prey model raw is, except we believe that wolves do not consume the stomach contents of prey so we do not add vegetables in any form. Wolves are carnivores and so are dogs. I've never heard "don't feed meat without bone" before. I suppose it depends how much meat is on the bone. It is certainly correct to ensure that the phosphorous/calcium ratio is desirable for the growth rate or need, but too much bone without meat etc. can lead to constipation and even compaction in the gut. Most "bone" feeds readily available to urban dwellers are more bone than meat as they are byproducts and the meat has been largely removed, so I would worry that that statement could be too easily misunderstood. In nature the bone in any one meal (say a rabbit) would be maximum about 15%. I find it better to think of a "carcase" diet, where the predator in nature consumes most of the carcase, including organs, gut contents, tendons, soft bone, marrow and even some skin and hair. Canid species will usually also consume opportunistic feeds of fish, insects and some fruits/vegetables. Grasses are usually semi-digested in a prey animals stomach which is why we put veges through the food processor or blender first to allow the dog's gut to access them. For those of us without easy access to entire fresh carcasses we do need to ensure diet components are added so that the "missing bits" of carcase are replaced or substituted. The 'wolves don't eat the stomach contests' thing is backed up by the research and observations of wolf behaviour guru Dr David Mech. They may still consume a small amount of course (as they tend to shake out the stomach and eat the stomach itself or may end up eating the stomach of small prey such as rabbits of they catch it, as they cant be bothered removing such a small amount) - but huge amounts they don't get and certainly not every day (or even necessarily every week). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Mine get a chicken based diet, not mince, they get whole chicken pieces daily (more meat than bone), with other meats thrown in whenever. They get an offal source 1-2 times a week, fish once a week (whole fish) and occasionally vegetables. Fantastic coats, wonderful small stool and beautiful teeth. Raw feeding doesn't have to be complicated, you just have to work out what works for you and the dog/s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Grasses are usually semi-digested in a prey animals stomach ..but IMO as dogs/cats do not eat the stomach contents ..this doesn't benefit them when given whole carcasses of,say ,rabbit about all that's left is the little stomach etc many years ago, in lean times when we used to feed the stomach and intestines of sheep butchered for our use, to dogs..they had to be washed well , or the dogs would not touch them ..or any other bits where stomach contents had been spilled . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Grasses are usually semi-digested in a prey animals stomach ..but IMO as dogs/cats do not eat the stomach contents ..this doesn't benefit them when given whole carcasses of,say ,rabbit about all that's left is the little stomach etc many years ago, in lean times when we used to feed the stomach and intestines of sheep butchered for our use, to dogs..they had to be washed well , or the dogs would not touch them ..or any other bits where stomach contents had been spilled . I imagine the stomach contents would be very bitter with the bile & digestive juices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minyvlz Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Funny though, how so many dogs and cats love green tripe! Grasses are usually semi-digested in a prey animals stomach ..but IMO as dogs/cats do not eat the stomach contents ..this doesn't benefit them when given whole carcasses of,say ,rabbit about all that's left is the little stomach etc many years ago, in lean times when we used to feed the stomach and intestines of sheep butchered for our use, to dogs..they had to be washed well , or the dogs would not touch them ..or any other bits where stomach contents had been spilled . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Unless your dog is ingesting fur and feather regularly, odds are it's prey model diet will lack fibre. Bone is not fibre and this is why the addition of vegetable matter can be useful. My dogs will live longer than any wild canine and I think some modifications to a "prey model" diet are called for as a result. Each to their own. Edited June 25, 2012 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Funny though, how so many dogs and cats love green tripe! Grasses are usually semi-digested in a prey animals stomach ..but IMO as dogs/cats do not eat the stomach contents ..this doesn't benefit them when given whole carcasses of,say ,rabbit about all that's left is the little stomach etc many years ago, in lean times when we used to feed the stomach and intestines of sheep butchered for our use, to dogs..they had to be washed well , or the dogs would not touch them ..or any other bits where stomach contents had been spilled . My dogs love kangaroo poo....the greener the better, but I think they would turn their noses up at stomach contents containing the bile. The tripe is just the stomach lining, isn't it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Unless your dog is ingesting fur and feather regularly, odds are it's prey model diet will lack fibre. Bone is not fibre and this is why the addition of vegetable matter can be useful. :) this why I always make sure to include some sort of 'cleaning brush' - skin with fur/hair attached ... hooves/claws also go down a treat . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 My dogs LOVE chickens feet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 My dogs LOVE chickens feet Mmmm...just like a chicken.......but cruncheeee :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minyvlz Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) green tripe isn't really green though :) more brownish? yep it is the stomach lining. My dogs love kangaroo poo....the greener the better, but I think they would turn their noses up at stomach contents containing the bile. The tripe is just the stomach lining, isn't it ? bone acts as "fibre", and so does connective tissue like gristle and sinew. it is the fibre that provides some impetus to move poops out of the dog and helps to express anal glands. ETA: wild wolves and canines often starve to death and do not receive the same health care that domestic dogs do. nonetheless, humans have not adjusted or evolved the dog's digestive tract or teeth structure in any way. addition of vegetable matter will mean the dog gets its vitamins from vegetables, instead of from highly-bioavailable animal parts. not to mention that a lot of carbs (pumpkin, potato) and vegetables humans add can be inflammatory and fattening when they're of no use to a carnivore. Unless your dog is ingesting fur and feather regularly, odds are it's prey model diet will lack fibre. Bone is not fibre and this is why the addition of vegetable matter can be useful. My dogs will live longer than any wild canine and I think some modifications to a "prey model" diet are called for as a result. Each to their own. Edited June 25, 2012 by minyvlz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Bone does not act as fibre. Feed enough of it WITHOUT fibre and you'll end up with a constipated dog. Vegetable matter is largely indigestible which is why (unlike sinew and gristle) it will pass through the stomach and provide sufficient bulk to void anal glands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Bone does not act as fibre. Feed enough of it WITHOUT fibre and you'll end up with a constipated dog. Vegetable matter is largely indigestible which is why (unlike sinew and gristle) it will pass through the stomach and provide sufficient bulk to void anal glands. Which is why VAN for instance contains whole cereal. Not for the nutritional value, but for the cleanout value. I wish I had a dollar for every dog I've seen that has gorged itself on bones and ended up crapping out absolutely rock solid white rabbit pellets...that is of course IF they are able to crap anything out at all!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 As my vet explains, for voiding anal glands, size matters. Compacted bone faeces simply won't do the trick. You need bulk to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minyvlz Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Exactly, too much bone will lead to constipation hence never ever feed more than 10-15%, and certainly not bones with meat at every meal. Too many bones lead to constipation and too few lead to soft stools because it acts said fibre. Bone is pooped out too, you can actually see them under a microscope. Given the number of vets that actually support raw I am not inclined to listen to any of them for feeding advice. Haredown: you should ask my dogs and the vast number of dogs in the world that are on a prey model diet if they have constipation. I have been feeding my dogs pmr for more than a year and they get regular bowel movements :) my itchy westie has also stopped scratching since eliminating the veggies. Bone does not act as fibre. Feed enough of it WITHOUT fibre and you'll end up with a constipated dog. Vegetable matter is largely indigestible which is why (unlike sinew and gristle) it will pass through the stomach and provide sufficient bulk to void anal glands. Which is why VAN for instance contains whole cereal. Not for the nutritional value, but for the cleanout value. I wish I had a dollar for every dog I've seen that has gorged itself on bones and ended up crapping out absolutely rock solid white rabbit pellets...that is of course IF they are able to crap anything out at all!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeckoTree Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Can't help but wonder how many posters in here eat a strictly paleo diet, what we as a species evolved on, agricultural diet, what we evolved towards, or an industrial food stuffs diet, what we settled for. Or a mix of all 3 LOL. Let your dog decide. Dogs know best for dogs, just open your eyes to them.. Edited June 25, 2012 by GeckoTree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Let your dog decide. Dogs know best for dogs, and is that why most of ours would kill us to get a peanut butter sandwich ? :p Aside from peanut butter sandwiches , Our pack def. prefer raw and as untouched as possible - luckily we can mostly provide that with fresh killed ferals and mutton offcuts . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Can't help but wonder how many posters in here eat a strictly paleo diet, what we as a species evolved on, agricultural diet, what we evolved towards, or an industrial food stuffs diet, what we settled for. Or a mix of all 3 LOL. Let your dog decide. Dogs know best for dogs, just open your eyes to them.. You should see the begging eyes on my KFC :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Can't help but wonder how many posters in here eat a strictly paleo diet, what we as a species evolved on, agricultural diet, what we evolved towards, or an industrial food stuffs diet, what we settled for. Or a mix of all 3 LOL. Let your dog decide. Dogs know best for dogs, just open your eyes to them.. If my dogs decided they'd be on roast chicken, doughnuts, chicken nugget, chips and liver cake. Oh and Howie would add fudge. Edited June 25, 2012 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) Too many bones lead to constipation and too few lead to soft stools because it acts said fibre. Nutrition 101 - an excess of fibre leads to flatulence and loose stools, not constipation. Why? Because its largely indigestible and also stimulates the gut. Based on your own observation, you've just disproven your assertion that bones are fibre. Some of the diets fed by people around the world defy basic nutritional concepts - and popularity is no test of a good diet for any species. Edited June 25, 2012 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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