Bad Luck Or Bad Breeding?

[minimax]

However, I followed the advice of the trainers to the letter and the behaviour never got better. It was at this point that they suggested I speak to the breeder about seeing if the puppy could return so it could be in an environment with lots of dogs and constant distractions.

And did you return her?

[Paptacular!]

You're lucky with the coccidia.

I had a puppy sent to me who had contracted it from her breeder's place and she died within 2 days of her arrival while being treated at the emergency vet.

[cavalong]

It is not the breeders fault that you chose the most expensive vets in Sydney and were charged that amount.

If you took your 2kg 8 week old puppy out at 1am to go to the toilet and was presented with a very large amount of blood in their poo, I would imagine you would take it to the only vet that was open at that time of night, regardless of the cost. I didn't care about how much it cost, I was concerned that my dog might die.

All specialists were very consistent with their training suggestions so there wasn't a vast range of methods.

[dancinbcs]

It is not the breeders fault that you chose the most expensive vets in Sydney and were charged that amount.

If you took your 2kg 8 week old puppy out at 1am to go to the toilet and was presented with a very large amount of blood in their poo, I would imagine you would take it to the only vet that was open at that time of night, regardless of the cost. I didn't care about how much it cost, I was concerned that my dog might die.

All specialists were very consistent with their training suggestions so there wasn't a vast range of methods.

My judgement may be clouded because I have a vet that is available on call 24 hours to regular clients to make sure I don't have to use a specialist centre just because it is night time. This is vital to breeders.

If the breeder was advised the puppy was that ill at 8 weeks they should have requested it be returned the next day for them to deal with at their own vet. I really am shocked too that the breeder didn't ask for the puppy back to assess it for herself re the behaviour as soon as they were advised there was a problem.

Have you requested that they take the puppy back and refund the purchase price due to the puppy not being suitable to being an only dog?

[Jumabaar]

It is not the breeders fault that you chose the most expensive vets in Sydney and were charged that amount.

If you took your 2kg 8 week old puppy out at 1am to go to the toilet and was presented with a very large amount of blood in their poo, I would imagine you would take it to the only vet that was open at that time of night, regardless of the cost. I didn't care about how much it cost, I was concerned that my dog might die.

All specialists were very consistent with their training suggestions so there wasn't a vast range of methods.

My judgement may be clouded because I have a vet that is available on call 24 hours to regular clients to make sure I don't have to use a specialist centre just because it is night time. This is vital to breeders.

If the breeder was advised the puppy was that ill at 8 weeks they should have requested it be returned the next day for them to deal with at their own vet. I really am shocked too that the breeder didn't ask for the puppy back to assess it for herself re the behaviour as soon as they were advised there was a problem.

Have you requested that they take the puppy back and refund the purchase price due to the puppy not being suitable to being an only dog?

Not sure how good a relationship the OP has with their vet but for their average puppy owner they wouldn't have the relationship with their vet to have 24hr service. And there are a fair number of vets that even if a pup were admitted during the day with these symptoms would transfer to a specialist hospital for overnight care.

I just want to check that the dog has been examined for any neurological problems? If its been to SASH I would assume so but just double checking. It seems unusual for a young pup to have behaviour this bad. Has the pup been otherwise healthy physically since being treated?

To answer your question this could all have been bad luck. i.e. with my first litter I had an infestation of fleas hit the litter two days before they left- I had honestly not seen a flea for over 18mths prior to this. Pups were treated and I provided enough treatment for the new owners to keep it up after they went home. On the other hand another breeder may always have a flea problem, not notice it and sell flea infested puppies and not really give a stuff.

It doesn't sound like your getting a whole heap of support from the breeder which must be really hard. I hope everything settles for you. Best of luck

[Rebanne]

how old is the pup now?

[dancinbcs]

To answer your question this could all have been bad luck. i.e. with my first litter I had an infestation of fleas hit the litter two days before they left- I had honestly not seen a flea for over 18mths prior to this. Pups were treated and I provided enough treatment for the new owners to keep it up after they went home. On the other hand another breeder may always have a flea problem, not notice it and sell flea infested puppies and not really give a stuff.

It doesn't sound like your getting a whole heap of support from the breeder which must be really hard. I hope everything settles for you. Best of luck

I agree it is probably all bad luck and I have no idea how anyone could be advising the breeder what or how to breed in future. The breeder's attitude is very disappointing but I would like to know exactly how these problems were put to them. Anyone can get their back up if you hurl accusations at them. No one sets out to breed unhealthy or unstable puppies especially if they are breeding show dogs. Some of those just churning out constant pet litters don't give a damn but you cannot breed show dogs without regard to health and temperament. One off bizarre things can happen to anyone with temperament/neuro problems and it doesn't have to be hereditary. Coccidia can also happen to any breeder but the right thing to do with any puppy that is clearly ill or having major issues is to get it back asap and work out what the problem is. Either refund the purchase price or offer it back to the buyer once the issue is resolved. 99% of puppy problems can be solved by a phone call to the breeder for advice but when they can't be resolved the puppy needs to be returned.

[cavalong]

I didn't hurl abuse at the breeder. I sent an email to them (because they were on holidays and I couldn't call) and explained the situation, what happened to the puppy and what the response was from the vet. I didn't even think about returning the dog, I didn't even realise it was an option. I just wanted to let the breeder know so they could act on the information and let the owners of the other puppies from the litter know if need be.

I asked for advice on what to do and was just told that there was nothing wrong with the dog and everyone I had consulted was obviously wrong.

I returned the puppy to the breeder when they returned from holidays thinking that it would be given a home with them, but I was browsing online and they have put the puppy up for sale with no mention of it needing to be homed somewhere with lots of dogs, and may have separation anxiety. It was also before the follow-up fecal float needed to be done to ensure the puppy was clear of Coccidia.

It has been a really disappointing experience to be honest and has left me heart broken as I had totally fallen in love with the pup

[Guest lavendergirl]

What a horrible experience for you to go through - especially as you were trying to do the right thing in choosing a reputable breeder. Pity this poor pup and whoever takes him on next - the breeder sounds very shonky to say the least.

[dancinbcs]

I didn't hurl abuse at the breeder. I sent an email to them (because they were on holidays and I couldn't call) and explained the situation, what happened to the puppy and what the response was from the vet. I didn't even think about returning the dog, I didn't even realise it was an option. I just wanted to let the breeder know so they could act on the information and let the owners of the other puppies from the litter know if need be.

I asked for advice on what to do and was just told that there was nothing wrong with the dog and everyone I had consulted was obviously wrong.

I returned the puppy to the breeder when they returned from holidays thinking that it would be given a home with them, but I was browsing online and they have put the puppy up for sale with no mention of it needing to be homed somewhere with lots of dogs, and may have separation anxiety. It was also before the follow-up fecal float needed to be done to ensure the puppy was clear of Coccidia.

It has been a really disappointing experience to be honest and has left me heart broken as I had totally fallen in love with the pup

As hard as it has been, I am glad you returned the puppy and hope it is a better fit in it's next home. You mentioned 30 years experience with the breed but have you ever raised a puppy before or just had adult dogs? I am not trying to blame you for the problem just trying to work out what went wrong so it never happens to you again. Some puppies are just a bad fit with some owners and nothing other than rehoming them to where they do fit in will fix the problem. It is no one's fault, just something that happens sometimes. I have seen dogs with seemingly impossible behavioural problems just magically improve in a different home. Not a better home just a different situation.

BTW, I didn't say anyone hurled "abuse" at the breeder I said "accusations" and by telling them to not breed the parents again, that is in fact accusing them of bad breeding and something that a lot of breeders would take offence at. The breeders may in fact be jerks or the whole thing could have been wrong dog in the wrong home and a lot of misunderstanding. There is no way for us to know with only one side of the story but I do hope you are able to find the right dog for you in the future, whether it be a baby puppy or an older dog.

[minimax]

I'd hope the breeder would at least mention the issues to a potential buyer ... but they probably won't :/

Have you looked further into the breeder to see if anyone else has had similar issues? Do they adverise here on DOL?

[Guest]

I have read your post and felt compelled to reply and let you know that you are not alone. Last year we went through a terrible ordeal very similar to your own experience with similar responses when we tried to resolve the issue and get to the bottom of the whole matter.

I have enormous sympathy for you, as the stress of this whole ordeal still effects me, even while typing this information in for you to access. I wish you all the very best, as you are obviously very caring and a decent human being. They are in short supply these days.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Troy
Link removed

[Paptacular!]

Romymyst, you might like to be careful splashing that link around. It may be construed as libel.

Also, breeders are not required to be registered as a business.

[Bjelkier]

Romymyst, you might like to be careful splashing that link around. It may be construed as libel.

Also, breeders are not required to be registered as a business.

I agree.

That could get you in a lot of trouble.

[dancinbcs]

Romymyst, you might like to be careful splashing that link around. It may be construed as libel.

Also, breeders are not required to be registered as a business.

That is a dreadful experience Romymyst but you have missed some important facts in your blog.

95% of registered ANKC breeders do not make enough profit to be classed as a registered business. The Tax dept classes dog breeding as a hobby unless you derive an overall profit from it. The only ones that are registered businesses are primary producers or those that just breed in large numbers for profit. Most ANKC breeders only have one litter per year so can hardly derive an profit from that after taking out all their dog expenses for the year.

Also the shoulder problem mentioned in the blog does not have to be genetic, congenital yes, but not genetic and there is a big difference. Any puppy from any bloodlines, champions or not, can have a congenital or genetic defect and some vets don't pick them up. I know someone that bred a puppy with weird shoulders. The vet that vaccinated the litter thought it was fine so the breeder sought a second opinion and x-rays. The shoulders joints were missing with the bones crossed instead of joined. This is not a genetic problem, just bad luck and the puppy was pts. Dogs are not all born perfectly formed any more than children are.

No idea what happened with the hookworm except to say a lot of regular wormers don't get rid of it but it is pretty rare and most breeders will never have to deal with it. Once it is on a property it is very hard to get rid of and multiple dogs would have been affected. It can lay dormant in soil for a long time and once a dog brings it on the the property you have a major problem.

There are definitely shonky breeders out there but bad luck can happen to the best of breeders and they don't have a crystal ball. The best advice I can give anyone is to immediately return an ill puppy, if possible, if it gets sick within the first week and let the breeder work it out from there.

So Romymyst, if you are going to make accusations get your facts straight first before going public with it or you could find yourself in legal troubles.