cavalong Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I should start by saying, I have had this particular breed of dog for 30+ years, so I am well versed in how the breed usually behaves and it is why I consulted so many experts. I had been looking for a new dog to add to our family for quite a while and came across this particular breeder. I researched them and found they were quite reputable, a long term breeder, showing and judging for many, many years. After talking with the breeder, I was really happy with the conversations as it seemed they were very focused on raising the dogs & puppies as part of the family, rather than out in a kennel as some others do. I organised to pick the puppy up when I thought it was 9 weeks old, which I was pleased with as an extra week or two is always helpful in my experience. When I got home, I found all the paperwork pointed to the puppy actually being 7 weeks old. Don't they have to be at least 8 weeks old? When I got the puppy home, it was quite reserved (as I would expect) and over the next few days & weeks the puppy became increasingly distressed whenever I left the room. A bit of anxiety is understandable, but this went from zero to hysteria in a matter of seconds and the puppy never soothed. In the two minutes it takes me to go to the bathroom, I would return to urine, faeces and vomit all over the floor. Even their crate wasn't safe. The next stage consisted of biting paws and maniacally pulling out their hair. Obviously I thought I might be training the dog wrong, so I spoke to two dog trainers, two vets and a vet behaviorist. They all concluded the same thing. The puppy had a severe case of separation anxiety that would be very difficult to fix and may not be curable. They all believe it is hereditary and asked me to speak to the breeder about not mating the two parents again. Despite this, I would still spend 4-6 hours a day training my puppy to try and get this problem under control. Also, not long after I took my puppy home, I had to rush to SASH because they had a parasite and advanced worms. 48 hours and $2600 lighter, I was able to take my puppy home. The vet at SASH advised that I speak to the breeder and have them check with the owners of all the other puppies in the litter to ensure they were treated. Speaking with the breeder, they were very hostile and refused to believe there was anything wrong with the puppy and if there was, it was entirely my fault. I can understand them being a bit upset as it is their reputation, but they were not willing to listen. So my question to you is, do you think this is a case of bad luck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) This all sounds very weird. What did the paperwork with the puppy state about how often it was wormed and with what? Why did it need to go to SASH for worms and what sort of worms? How long after you took the puppy home did you leave it to call the breeder and tell them you were having problems? If you take a new puppy home and there is a problem the FIRST thing to do is call the breeder. If there is a health problem that isn't an accident then the FIRST thing to do is call the breeder. If you let behavioural problems go on for weeks or run up a huge vet bill without consulting the breeder you are likely to get a hostile reaction if you call to complain after the event. Having said that, lots of puppies hate to be away from the new owner but that level of anxiety is not normal. We would need to know exactly how the situation was handled from day one in your care to know if you added to the problem or if the puppy really does have issues. As to the worm problem the last time I heard of a vet diagnosing worms in a very ill puppy and accusing the breeder of not worming it, the puppy turned out to have an undiagnosed liver shunt, not worms at all. You would hope that SASH would know the difference but I suppose it depends on the vet. Edited June 4, 2012 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 The ANKC code of ethics and the RSPCA both say the dog is not to be rehomed before 8 weeks old. In the USA - they say 7 weeks is ok but here, that's considered too young in terms of best immunity from mother's milk and social development. I don't know about the worms thing. The separation anxiety does seem extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 by parasite- do you mean something like giardia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) $2600 to treat some worms? That sounds ridiculously expensive?! What was the actual parasite? Edited June 5, 2012 by Aussie3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) ... Edited June 5, 2012 by Aziah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddick Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I think this has got more questions to be answered before anyone can give a full and honest answer. And I do actually think if you have bought a pup that it can be trained out of the separation anxiety. I do think it might be a slow thing to do but really most pups are an open slate. No I am not a trainer or anything like that but I have had pups and they do learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embellish Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I would imagine the worm infestation would have been hookworm?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 SASH is an emergency after hours service I think? Some other 'parasite' perhaps that caused symptoms needing immediate treatment? Coccidia? OP can you confirm exactly what symptoms and parasites you are referring to? If it was Coccidia, the presence of birds (poultry, parrots or even wild birds) in particular can often mean that this is present on a property. It can be more prevalent in wet weather. With dogs (in particular puppies) problems won't often occur unless the pup is placed under some kind of stress - the stress of going to a new home for example. Symptoms can include diarreha, vomiting, poor apetite etc, but it is generally easily treated once identified. Often a breeder won't even know coccidia is present until a puppy in its new home is diagnosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 You know, I'd almost be prepared to have stab at the name of this breeder. This sounds like way more than bad luck IMO. You don't "accidentally" home 7 week old pups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavalong Posted June 5, 2012 Author Share Posted June 5, 2012 To answer some questions: The puppy was taken to SASH because of quite a lot of blood in their poo. It was later found to be Coccidia. The puppy is fed and has water inside only and did not have access to any birds when with me. The anxiety continued to become worse after treatment. I too thought that I could train the anxiety out of the puppy which is why I saw so many specialists as I thought the first one was wrong. I contacted the breeder immediately after the illness & again during the anxiety issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 And what did the breeder say when you contacted them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavalong Posted June 5, 2012 Author Share Posted June 5, 2012 The breeder told me there was nothing wrong with the puppy and wanted to know what I had done to make the dog behave that way (like it is possible to create anxiety like that in a matter of days). I think the reason why I was given the puppy at 7 weeks was because the breeder was going on holidays. Had I known, I would have waited until they returned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Is it possible that the puppy didn't display those behaviours whist still in the company of it's littermates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Why would a puppy suffer separation anxiety while it's still with its litter mates? I've heard that "you have to take the puppy now cos I'm going on holidays" excuse before. Not good. Ie a responsible breeder plans the mating - knows how long a bitch wil be pregnant - and knows how long the puppies need to stay with their mum. So that means they know how to avoid holidays and puppies clashing. I wouldn't be happy about this - but what would make it right for you? Do you want to return the puppy to the breeder? Or keep it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Why would a puppy suffer separation anxiety while it's still with its litter mates? That was my point. The pup may not have showed any signs of SA at the breeders . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 To answer some questions: The puppy was taken to SASH because of quite a lot of blood in their poo. It was later found to be Coccidia. The puppy is fed and has water inside only and did not have access to any birds when with me. The anxiety continued to become worse after treatment. I too thought that I could train the anxiety out of the puppy which is why I saw so many specialists as I thought the first one was wrong. I contacted the breeder immediately after the illness & again during the anxiety issues. Coccidia is something most breeders would never have encountered and many would never have heard of it. If your puppy contracted it from the breeder's property they would also have other dogs infected. They don't require direct contact with birds to get it as it can be in soil. The symptoms should show within the first couple of weeks and are made worse by the stress of the puppy changing homes. Coccidia is not a sign of bad breeding practice, just bad luck. Even for SASH, that seems a ridiculous amount to diagnose and treat coccidia. A normal vet could probably have done the same thing for less than $200. It is not the breeders fault that you chose the most expensive vets in Sydney and were charged that amount. The separation anxiety would not be evident to the breeder. It is something that shows when the puppy is taken from the litter. If the puppy was reacting that badly after the first couple of days you should have called the breeder then for advice. I do wonder if consulting "so many specialists" has caused the problem to escalate if you are trying all different methods? As you have now tried many remedies there is no way of knowing why the puppy is so stressed. It may have a neuro problem of some sort or might just be completely confused. I suggest you call the breeder in a completely non-confrontational way and ask for help. If you have already made accusations, apologise first, then see if maybe they can take the puppy back for a couple of days to observe it's behaviour themselves. If they truly are uncaring breeders then I am not sure what to recommend. What is the puppy's routine? Where does it sleep? How long is it left alone? How long have you had the puppy and was it there a major problem from day one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 How old is the puppy now? You say you spend 4-6 hours a day training it? I'm not surprised it's stressed with that amount of training :/ What sort of love and fun and general "being a puppy" does it have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavalong Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 Is it possible that the puppy didn't display those behaviours whist still in the company of it's littermates? I would assume it didn't. It is the reason why the trainers and the behaviourist said the puppy could be better suited to an environment with a lot of dogs and constant distraction. Also, I am not saying the breeder knew the puppy had anxiety before, but to refuse to believe me, or the 5 experts without speaking with them (some wanted to talk to the breeder to explain the behaviour if it would help) and to say that they would be continuing to breed the two dogs in the future (against the advice of all 5 experts) is irresponsible in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavalong Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 How old is the puppy now? You say you spend 4-6 hours a day training it? I'm not surprised it's stressed with that amount of training :/ What sort of love and fun and general "being a puppy" does it have? I use the word training loosely. I just meant that I followed the trainers advice by getting up and leaving the area where I was with the puppy for most of the day for lots of very short bursts. So if I wanted to make my lunch, I would get up and go to the kitchen and get the plate and cup, then come back. A couple of minutes later I would get up again and cut the bread roll and come back and so on. It was time consuming, but the idea was to show the puppy that I would leave, but I would always come back and the short bursts of 30 seconds to a minute were short enough that the puppy shouldn't reach the point of being too distressed and they should tire out enough that they wouldn't want to follow me to the kitchen for such a short amount of time. However, I followed the advice of the trainers to the letter and the behaviour never got better. It was at this point that they suggested I speak to the breeder about seeing if the puppy could return so it could be in an environment with lots of dogs and constant distractions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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