Is It The Dog Or The Owner?

[zeebie]

How many times have we pondered this question, should the dog be blamed for its action, or should the owner be taken to court to justify their actions in not preventing the dogs behaviour?

Over and over again we see/hear in the media, and in the neighbourhood,reports of dog attacks.

last Sunday on my way to an event I had need at 7am to urgently stop at a very isolated and secure dog off lead area close to my home, I had only just driven 2 streets when pup decided to throw up in her crate,so taking both small dogs into this area, Dogs romped around while I disposed of liner etc. Job done and pup back on lead I commenced walking to exit when suddenly confronted by a huge Ban dog X Rhodesian ridgeback looking rather agro and dragging lead, my only defence was to scope puppy into arms and turn and brace myself against a large gum tree trunk, thus leaving my other little dog at the mercy of this 50Kg dog, this dog immediately "attacked" no smelling, no "lets just check out this other dog" he just swopped on his prey and had my dog like a rag doll, this all happened in a matter of seconds with me standing metres away terrified and then hearing two people frantically yelling the dogs name etc, they came running up the lane way into the enclosure and the male grabbed the lead and dragged this dog away, whence the girl is telling me not to worry he is friendly and he only wants to play and that he is a puppy etc etc. Right then! this dog was 160cm on its hind legs I am 163cm, the dog weighed more then I did, I have extensive experience with dogs and none phase me unless I see this type of behaviour and there isn't a fence between myself and the dog.

I was in tears by this time and thankfully my little dog had no physical injury only emotional (yes dogs do suffer emotional trauma), as did I,completely ruining my day out and leaving me so shaken up. These people could NOT control this dog, it had no training, no discipline, as witnessed by the 180cm male owner trying to drag the dog away out of the park with it dragging him in opposite direction trying to get back to my dog, and according to them had escaped - conveniently under the fence with its lead on into the area where I was. Their argument being that he must have seen me walk past!

The house adjoins the area and belongs to the city council and is being rented out to families in crisis, these people said the dog was only staying for the w/e and would be gone the next day. So in all the chaos I did not get their names, the dogs name or any other information. So a call to the local council was met with well as long as you or your dogs are not injured etc, there is nothing we can do without this information. so now this dog has gotten off, well its owners have until next time when it possibly kills or seriously maimes an animal or human.

So it is great we have rules and regulations etc regarding animal control, trouble is the animals can't read, therefore it is ultimately their human owners responsibility to effectively safegaurd their dog to prevent it being labelled as a dangerous dog and or being potentially PTS.

[Guest Arcane]

It is never the dogs fault, never.

It's people that fault the dog, always.

[m-sass]

Ultimately, it's the owners responsibility to make sure that their dogs don't behave in that manner and they have effective control over them to prevent dangerous incidents occurring, but dogs who instinctively display aggressive and predatory behaviour is in the dog, not all dogs untrained and poorly managed will attack other animals and bite people, it's the default behaviour of that "type" of dog to attack and aggress where on the other side of the coin the authorities work on the stance if they ban the type or breed of dogs commonly known for aggressive behaviour, it will result in less attacks that irresponsible owners cause?.

[WExtremeG]

A bit of both (but you could hardly say a dog should be 'blamed' for its actions).

Edited May 31, 2012 by F11

[geo]

I think your last sentence answers your question. No rules or regs can be successful if people don't follow them. This isn't so much a BSL issue but a society issue.

Many unrestrained, untrained, prey driven dogs would'be done exactly the same. The dog being as big as you say could've easily killed your dog, and i'm surprised yours had no injures.

I think incidents like this happen all the time and it is ultimately the owners responsibilty to control their dog.

Don't think this is limited to large dog breed owners, as i have had to shoo away many SWF from snapping at my larger dogs because their owners do absolutely nothing to control their dogs bad habits.

[zeebie]

This isn't so much a BSL issue but a society issue.

i'm surprised yours had no injures.

Don't think this is limited to large dog breed owners, as i have had to shoo away many SWF from snapping at my larger dogs because their owners do absolutely nothing to control their dogs bad habits.

Totally agree it is a wider issue but unfortuneately if non dog orientated people were allowed to vote on a particular dog related topic we would probably all suffer the consequences.

My little dog is very very fast and initially was able to outrun and actually ran under belly of this dog causing it to fall over when trying to turn back on him, this gave him some time, he also had a weather beta coat on which also helped stop the dogs teeth getting into his body thank heavens.

Agree also about small dogs being ferrocious with the small dog syndrome and often owners think it is funny to see their little dog standing up to a big dog while not realising the small dog transfers this aggression onto humans and other smaller animals.

I am definately in favour of bringing in the same system they have in the USA, that is everyone MUST complete a compulsory new owners course and get a certificate of competency before being allowed to own a dog, when they purchase or rescue a dog they then must attend a dog orientation group, so it more or less makes people think twice before rushing off and buying a dog as they have these added committments to take on. the authorities who regulate this system also provide education as to most suitable type of dog for the persons situation, and they monitor the "license", unlike here where people get dogs, if your lucky they register with council and no one ever checks on the dogs welfare etc unless there is a problem.

[Riddick]

Not real sure how I will go about answering this one.

But I tent to think more on the sode of the owner.

To what brings me to this is this.

I have done obedience training with our last 4 dogs.

And in this time we have had 2 Black Labrodors in our class for about only 2 lesson each.

Both of these were people and dog visious.

I knew I didn't want my dog anywhere near these dogs at all.

The instructor actually go me to do a few things with our class as she know I was up to the standard of our class.

While she took this Black Lab on a one to one thing.

It never worked out and I give credit to the people who owned them for trying to fix the problems.

But as I said they only lasted 2 lesson's and never seen them again in both cases.

Now I don't know if these owners had inherited these dogs or what.

But we well most of us know what this breed in known for.

So it sort of makes you point the finger to the owners or in these case maybe the previous owners.

[StaceyB]

IMO it's up to the owner to know the temprement of the breed and their individual dog and treat it accordingly. My dog is dog aggressive (breed trait) and an escape artist, it's my responsibility to ensure that she is contained at all times and not put in a situation where an attack it likely to occur. It's not my dogs fault that her breed was bred and used for dog fighting for 100's of generations, you can't do anything about natural instinct.

It's just too easy to open the local paper and just buy a dog because it's the right price with no thought to the temperament and development of the breed so people end up with a dog they have no idea how to handle.

Ultimately, regardless of whether the person is a responsible owner or not they are legally responsible for anything and everything that dog does. I have spend a lot of money on training and behaviourists over the years and my dog is contained as best I can but if she got out and caused a car accident or attacked another animal etc then I am responsible for that.

[Riddick]

IMO it's up to the owner to know the temprement of the breed and their individual dog and treat it accordingly. My dog is dog aggressive (breed trait) and an escape artist, it's my responsibility to ensure that she is contained at all times and not put in a situation where an attack it likely to occur. It's not my dogs fault that her breed was bred and used for dog fighting for 100's of generations, you can't do anything about natural instinct.

It's just too easy to open the local paper and just buy a dog because it's the right price with no thought to the temperament and development of the breed so people end up with a dog they have no idea how to handle.

Ultimately, regardless of whether the person is a responsible owner or not they are legally responsible for anything and everything that dog does. I have spend a lot of money on training and behaviourists over the years and my dog is contained as best I can but if she got out and caused a car accident or attacked another animal etc then I am responsible for that.

I am applauding your camments as it would have been hard to say this in an open forum such as this.

But to take ownership of this is a rare thing these days.

So to that you have to be call a more than responsible owner.

My wife just back from walking our boy ans she said that these new neighbours have let their dogs get out since they have been here (2 Weeks)

And the best they have said is that they are friendly. Still they are roaming the streets.

Poles apart from you and the way you are doing things.

[zeebie]

yes there are very responsible owners and then unfortuneately very iresponsible ones and there in lies the problem so the sooner a 'licence' to own a dog is brought in the better as this would require pre deterimed steps by people pre getting a dog and there would be no more impulse buying, and breeds specifically bred for illegal reasons would soon disappear.

More times then not puppies and cuteness soon disappear and owners suddenly realise that this dog is now in their lives for at least 10yrs and costs etc start to add up and thats when problems begin

While not related but still annoying is that so many backyard breeders are still selling non microchipped pups and silly people are diving in head first and parting with big bucks for them falling prey to scams that they are to naive to realise they are being taken. Stolen pups and non pedigree pups being passed off as pedigree are 2 examples.

[Tia]

I rescued a staffy off death row from the pound, stupid me assuming she'd been assessed with other dogs.

I grew up with dogs all my life such as german shepards, a rottie and a pitbull, dogs people normally fear but we never had a problem with them.

I quickly learnt this girl was very animal aggressive and we started training with a top trainer to try to tone down the aggression to a level where she could be walked and ignore other dogs. Unfortunately a lot of people around our area believe it's ok to let their aggressive dogs run loose reinforcing her fighting instincts. The number of encounters we had was sickening though the other owners accepted it as their fault, one owner even got excited as he had an AM-staff and it was a full on fight between our girls, it sickened me to see them so excited.

2 owners blamed my dog though and even though we had witness statements to say my dog was on lead and always on lead when out our council declared her dangerous with all that the rules entailed (it was at the height of the BSL). After much discussion with experts it was decided having her pts would be kindest. I gave her I hope one happy year though.

It really upsets me when I know someone caused our girl to be like this as I have met some of the most beautiful staffies and I often wonder if we had had her as a pup would she have turned out the same. We did all we could and she was beautiful with our kids but I wondered from the time she left the yard, the way she was on watch just waiting to fight if she was a happy dog.

It's been over 4yrs now and we have slowly over the last few months started talking about getting another dog as this whole thing affected me so badly. I wish I could find her old owners and take a broom to them at the very least, we know that was one thing they used to get her going.

[GeckoTree]

Bit of both, it's more a management thing, many dogs in this country don't actually have owners at all. I know mine didn't until I grabbed her. I would never break a dogs spirit be it a bad ass or a sap, I only adapt and manage where I live in society.

[m-sass]

I rescued a staffy off death row from the pound, stupid me assuming she'd been assessed with other dogs.

I grew up with dogs all my life such as german shepards, a rottie and a pitbull, dogs people normally fear but we never had a problem with them.

I quickly learnt this girl was very animal aggressive and we started training with a top trainer to try to tone down the aggression to a level where she could be walked and ignore other dogs. Unfortunately a lot of people around our area believe it's ok to let their aggressive dogs run loose reinforcing her fighting instincts. The number of encounters we had was sickening though the other owners accepted it as their fault, one owner even got excited as he had an AM-staff and it was a full on fight between our girls, it sickened me to see them so excited.

2 owners blamed my dog though and even though we had witness statements to say my dog was on lead and always on lead when out our council declared her dangerous with all that the rules entailed (it was at the height of the BSL). After much discussion with experts it was decided having her pts would be kindest. I gave her I hope one happy year though.

It really upsets me when I know someone caused our girl to be like this as I have met some of the most beautiful staffies and I often wonder if we had had her as a pup would she have turned out the same. We did all we could and she was beautiful with our kids but I wondered from the time she left the yard, the way she was on watch just waiting to fight if she was a happy dog.

It's been over 4yrs now and we have slowly over the last few months started talking about getting another dog as this whole thing affected me so badly. I wish I could find her old owners and take a broom to them at the very least, we know that was one thing they used to get her going.

Sorry to hear about your situation, but you need to understand that aggression is in the dog's genetics for the most part, even if the previous owner had taught the dog to fight to some degree, there is fighting instinct in the dog's make up to bring it out in the first place, it's the reason not every GSD or Rottweiler can be trained as a security/guard dog and most that can are bred specifically to inherit the required traits to work in those roles. I too have met and know some wonderful Staffies in fact I know someone well who's Staffy boy is fantastic with other dogs, their girl is massively dog aggressive, same owners, same raising different genetics/temperament between the two dogs of the same breed.

Out of interest, are you saying that your dog was declared dangerous from being on leash fighting dogs roaming off leash

Edited June 8, 2012 by m-sass

[sandgrubber]

Better a bad dog with a good owner than a bad owner with a good dog. Best of all, a good dog with a good owner. Bad owners with bad dogs are bad news.

[aussielover]

Better a bad dog with a good owner than a bad owner with a good dog. Best of all, a good dog with a good owner. Bad owners with bad dogs are bad news.

Really? I think the opposite.

If a dog has such a good temperament that it remains well-behaved and not aggressive even with a clueless owner, I think that is a good thing. These are the sorts of dogs that we should be encouraging as pets.

A bad dog, no matter how good the owner is, is always a risk and it only takes 1 accident, 1 slip of attention etc for a disaster to happen. Obviously it depends on how "bad" exactly the dog is...

But I don't think there is any place in today's society for a dog that would kill another dog or repeatedly and seriously attack a human with little provocation given the chance.

I don't think you can entirely blame either party- there are some dogs born with bad temperaments and some owners that cause dogs to develop bad behaviours.

Although technically, I suppose, you could blame people for breeding dogs with terrible temperaments- either purposely or accidently (just by not placing a high value on temperament in their breeding program).

Edited June 12, 2012 by aussielover

[YOLO]

Ultimately, it is always a Person’s fault.

Dogs are a product of their breeding and their training (or lack thereof.)

The underlying problem with every piece of dog legislation is that it is mostly effective against responsible dog-owners. Irresponsible owners (and worse,) the minority who give dogs a bad name, are less impacted by laws and continue on their obnoxious way.

Rottweiler’s are beautiful dogs. We had a neighbour who kept them, they were lovely well-bred dogs and he would bring them over to socialise with our dog and children. NEVER had a problem, but he always kept them on a leash and he was a BIG enough guy to manhandle them if the need ever arose. Unfortunately there are those that have been deliberately bred with poor temperament for security work and worse. They can be trained to fight and can (and have) kill people. Comes down to the Breeders, the Trainers, and the Owners.

[Bonniebank]

Sorry to come into this discussion so late but a news item on tele caused interest enough for me to check the forum.

Firstly, a recent attack on humans by what the television reported as American Staffies showed the dogs. I don't know much about Amstaffs but the dogs didn't look like them to me.

I discussed it with a mate who said that some owners of dogs who may be declared by councils as Pitbulls or Pitbull crosses (the dogs....not the owners), register their dogs as Amstaffs for some reason????????

and secondly, IMVHO, no matter what breed of dog one owns, one would have to be constantly aware of what it was bred for when assessing and managing it's behaviour.

Yes. There will always be ANY breed of dog that will attack other dogs (just as there will always be ANY human that will attack other humans), but as an owner of say a dog bred for fighting, guarding etc, one should know and manage the breeds traits accordingly.

No different to owning a herding breed, a scent finding breed, a mushing breed etc etc.

I know owners of spaniels and mushers who can't let their dogs off leash unless the area is well fenced.

I own herding breeds and when we lived in suburbia, had one that would try to work all the dogs at the local dog exercise area. I would have had to keep him on lead there except that the other owners told me not to as their dogs got plenty of excercise and it was very handy to use my dog to round up their dog when it was time for them to go home *rolls eyes*. He also came in handy at the park for rounding up runaway toddlers

Getting off track sorry but what I mean is that I think that the number one issue is the particular breed. Number two issue may be the breeding of various dogs and number three issue is the training and management of a dog belonging to (or descended from) a particular breed.

So my answer to the original question is BOTH.

[gwp4me]

Well spoken, it is both - plus the unpredictable Murpy's Law: Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong!

[geo]

Getting off track sorry but what I mean is that I think that the number one issue is the particular breed. Number two issue may be the breeding of various dogs and number three issue is the training and management of a dog belonging to (or descended from) a particular breed.

So my answer to the original question is BOTH.

I can't agree, pitbull 'type' does not indicate it has a higher propensity to attack a person, however you can guarantee it's more likely to hit the headlines.

[scooby13]

Completely agree geo. There are owners out there who treat their dogs how dogs should not be treated, yet they're the first to defend themselves and their dogs when something goes wrong. How your puppy is treated from a young age is a massive factor, just like kids. There is such a stereotype around dogs like Pitbulls, Rottweilers etc that when something happens, no matter how little, it gets splashed around on the news and the whole dangerous dog debate flares again. Rarely see the "good news stories" about these dogs do we.