Retrieving

[persephone]

speaking as one who has never laid hands on a dumbell... don't know if this would work ..but try this

have your dog sitting....give him the dumbell...ask him to hold..if necessary, tickle him gently under the chin, so's he doesn't open his mouth..then after a minute, say give, or whatever, take the dumbell, as SOON as he starts to release his hold.

Lots of praise, treat, & do it again, & again & again.....having a little less tickling, so he holds it himself, a little more time in his mouth, a little further from him..THEN start calling him to you....

[PAX]

Paddles,

I went through this stage as well. I got down on the ground and asked for the dumbell right next to me and made sure i caught the dumbell ( i didn't not cue it with a word yet) It only took a few times, maybe ten or so until he worked out i wanted it in my hand. Then when he had that i stood up and did it. Once they understand this well then add the word. Keep each session short one to two minutes.

Then slowly make it slightly more difficult for him to put it in your hand, like have your hands behind your back when he brings it to you then take it. Just progress slowly. Make sure you have 80% rate before increasing the difficulty.

Sounds like your making good progress.

Keep us posted

[m-j]

I don't know weather I'll actually try a clicker, sounds a bit strange to me, and, to my mind, you always have your voice! (and in my case food) I've spoken to a few friends, and its interesting in the replys I got, Clicker training relys on good reflexes, which I don't have, so I'll stick to voice and food at this stage

Hi

Unfortunately you have to have good timing even if you are using a bridge word instead of a clicker. I personally don't use clickers, due to the fact I'm a clutz, but they are a lot more effective because it is a unique sound (unless you are at a kids party ) cos we talk to our dogs all the time and if there is something else going on in the dogs mind (like anticipating a reprimand the words become background noise). I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that you maybe going to fast (lumping instead of splitting) holding the dumbell in the mouth and walking with the dumbell are two different things to the dog and the hold needs to be solid before you add the walking criteria to the trick.

When your dog drops the dumbell just ask to hold again and if you think your movement causes ther dfog to drop the db stay still. Increase your hold times by fractions of seconds.

If the dog shuts down on you ask for a behaviour he knows really well reward that and end your training session and try again tomorrow.

hth

Cheers

M-J

[Kavik]

I am getting quite frustrated with the retrieve. My fault entirely, my first try at clicker training it. Diesel knows that mout over dumbell is good, and will try to rip it out of my hand to throw it! I must have inadvertently clicked when he was throwing the dumbell. So now back a few step to mouth over dumbell.

My main problem is how to get him to hold it longer? If I let go of the dumbell to see if he will hold it himself, he drops it or throws it. I am afraid if I wait too long and he doesn't decide to hold it longer he will give up and not try to hold it.

[paddles]

I understand your frustration! I have given up on one of my dogs, (She is an absolute fleabrain!) and am concentrating on my other dog, its more rewarding, However I now have the vet telling me that "dukes"days are numbered, and I'm feeling a little sorry for myself. (I could say talk about frustration!) I love my dog, he's a one owner dog, and our bitch is the family dog, so I sort of feel hard done by at the moment. (I'm still discussing treatments/operations)

[Lablover]

I looked at this question a couple of times before I have decided to add to the thread.

Due to the breed of dogs having problems with hold and fetch etc,not being gundog breeds which tend to very easy to teach holding an article, has anyone heard of force fetch using the ear pinch?

Please before you all jump on me, force fetch can be done in a humane manner. Not much different than pushing a dog's bottom down to train to sit or using a heeling stick for faster responses to known sit commands. I would much rather use a heeling stick to guide a dog to teach heeling than a chocker collar.

Are you interested in your dogs retrieving just for the sack of retrieiving a ball in the park or retrieving because your interest is in CDX or UD?

[paddles]

I just do obedience etc, as a hobby, and I am trying to learn to be nice to the dog, I get told off in ob class for being too aggressive, if the dog doesn't learn the trick it doesn't really matter, but I would like to teach these tricks for funs sake.

[Lablover]

Being too aggressive, how?

[Kavik]

I would like to trial in obedience, so want the retrieve for that. Diesel is my first serious attempt at trialling. I know retrieving is so important for the more advanced exercises.

I have heard of force fetching, but am not sure I want to do it. Nobody in my club has experience with it - they just practice hold (close dog's mouth over dumbell) and praise and somehow their dogs just get it! Most have goldies, but some have GSDs and Mini Schnauzers and that is how they all teach retrieving (at both clubs I have been to). I haven't had success with either of my dogs with that method (well, it worked to a point, but they were not enthusiastic to take the dumbell).

I would rather not force retrieve, and certainly not without someone to show me how to do it properly - I am worried about doing it wrong and causing the dog to dislike retrieving. I only know one person who force retrieved his dogs, he did retrieving trials with his Labs but I don't see him anymore (he only rarely came to class, and now I have moved clubs). I might consider it if I had someone to show me how to do it.

I like the idea behind the clicker method (encourages interaction with the dumbell and positive experiences), and have a site bookmarked on how to do it (30 steps or so :D ) but am just really stuck as Diesel doesn't seem to be offering the behaviour I want.

[m-j]

Hi Kavik

My main problem is how to get him to hold it longer? If I let go of the dumbell to see if he will hold it himself, he drops it or throws it. I am afraid if I wait too long and he doesn't decide to hold it longer he will give up and not try to hold it.

Could you hold it in his mouth, let go for a fraction of a sec, leave your hand in the same position, just lift your fingers and no more than a few mm, grab it again and the instantly click it and at the same time take it out of his mouth. Very gradually increase the time you aren't holding the DB for. You will then have to teach him that the fingers / hand moving away from the DB is okay as it will come back grab the DB and you will get rewarded for your efforts. This also has to be done in very small increments.

For me this is the hardest part of a targeted retrieve, getting duration of the hold, my timing isn't good enough to get it without having to go back, fifty times .

I must have inadvertently clicked when he was throwing the dumbell. So now back a few step to mouth over dumbell.

You may not have. You may have clicked while the DB was in his mouth but because he was thinking of grabbing and spitting you, in his mind, have rewarded him for thinking about and doing the grab / spit, maybe.

hth

cheers

M-J

[Kavik]

The problem with holding it in his mouth (holding his mouth closed over dumbell) is that he then really wants to spit it out and then resents the dumbell (that is the problem I have with the way my club teaches it).

Using the clicker he wants to grab the dumbell, but he will not hold it calmly. It seems using the clicker makes him want to be very active with the dumbell, and if I wait for a longer hold he tries to rip the dumbell out of my hand, or paws at it.

[Pete]

My suggestion would be to firstly learn how to clicker train your dog, then teach some tricks, don't start with any trialling exercises, just have fun. Then you can progress to the dumbell when the dog is a bit more clicker savvy. You already have the beginning of teaching the dumbell. Clicker training will teach the dog to push a bit harder. Once the dog is mouthing the dumbell reliablly then you start to hold off a bit, frustrate the dog a little and it will push harder so the moment you get the tiniest bit more grip then click, and build it from there. This may be the Shirley Kong method, not sure, will have to read it too.

[Vickie]

Using the clicker he wants to grab the dumbell, but he will not hold it calmly. It seems using the clicker makes him want to be very active with the dumbell, and if I wait for a longer hold he tries to rip the dumbell out of my hand, or paws at it.

I remember having the same problem with Noah years ago. He is a dog that took to the clicker very quickly & has always been very enthusiastic to offer behaviours. He also had no interest in retrieving whatsoever. I am certainly no expert here, but I do remember one thing that seemed to help.

He had a lot of trouble with holding the dumbell. All his previous clicker work was to do something...rather that nothing (ie the hold). Initially I had to do a lot of work just to get him to touch it with his mouth, and this was done by creating a little excitement about the dumbell. I then needed to be careful as my next step was a behaviour that required no excitement.

I took it very slowly. All we worked on was the hold & I never introduced the word give until we had a reliable hold for a period of time, as I didn't want him to anticipate the give. I worked with him every day, by ourselves in the lounge room where there were no distractions whatsoever. I sat on a chair, with him in front of me & started clicking for touch, the mouth over, then a hold for longer durations. Because all the holding was done over my knees, the dumbell never dropped to the ground, so there was always success. I didn't take my hands away until I could see that he was reliable holding it on his own. The click was the release. After this was reliable, I added the word give to the click.

It took a long time & a lot of calm patience. I would set yourself a program. 3 times a day, 5 mins a time. It may take a couple of weeks but I found that for a dog who had absolutely no inclination to pick that dumbell up, it was worth getting the behaviour so reliable.

As I said I am no expert, this was just what worked for me. I think the key was structured sessions, with goals & a lot of patience. Also the training done over my knees and resisting the temptation to move too fast.

ETA: By the way...I gave up with Zeus, he has never been one to offer behaviours with a clicker.

Edited April 14, 2005 by vpzn

[paddles]

Being too aggressive, how?

the way I was taught to train a dog, was if the dog doesn't get the idea in a few attempts to give the correction chain a yank, now this does train the dog, but I found that it leaves me with a dog that works nigh on perfectly, but like a robot whith head and tail down, no enjoyment in what it is doing. the new method I am being taught is frustrating at times but does leave me with a happier dog. It is very tempting at times to fall back on old tried methods, but I do query wheather the results are worth it.

[Kavik]

vpzn,

That makes a lot of sense! My problem is I am impatient and try to hurry things along. A program sounds like a good idea, I need to set some small goals.

[pgm]

Paddles: the way you were taught is unfortunate. I am not surprised that you ended up with an unhappy dog.

A dog should never be corrected until AFTER it has been established that it understands the command.

There are some very good old methods, but the one you were taught does not sound like one of them.

[m-j]

The problem with holding it in his mouth (holding his mouth closed over dumbell) is that he then really wants to spit it out and then resents the dumbell QUOTE]

No not holding his mouth,

Sorry I didn't explain very well Hold one hand, on one end of the DB and clicker in the other, rest the DB on his teeth for a fraction of a sec, and then you grab hold of the DB again at the same time clicking, before he mouths/spits it.

That is, if he offers you a brief window of opportunity to do this

cheers

M-J

[bilby]

Hullo everyone ... any progress reports on this one ???

I'm at the same block with Bouf .. had a 1-on-1 with my trainer today because Bouf just hates the dumbbell.

I realise that I probably instigated a lot of this .. I had retrievers before .. & I guess I conveyed my frustration to him even though I was trying to suppress it.

Then I decided that actually I didn't really mind .. hey he's a well behaved dog in all the social occasion .. so just forget about retrieving .. why bother if it was so difficult & alienating for us both ?

So we just played .. & had a lot of fun ... this dog can now track & fetch scent articles ...

So .. I decided to try dumbbell work again .. will work on her advice ( very similar to here) .. though she was able to pinpoimt something I'd never factored in before .. ie Mastiffs can't hold dumbbells if they're excited & panting & drooling ,, so we did 5 mins ..waited 10 mins .. etc

Just wondered if anyone had any follow-up pointers ?

If it gets too hard .. I'll just settle for my lovely companion dog .. no worries

[birdielover]

Hello i hope I am not stepping on any toes here, being new and all. But I have just taught my border collie to retrieve the dumbell and I did not think i would ever manage to do it. He learned in about 6 weeks. I first did fetch/hold/give while he was sitting with me and not doing anything else. Then i would go a bit further away. Getting him to hold was a bit difficult, but I kept my hand gently over his snout and kept saying hold, hold, hold, then "give" and then made a fuss over him and told him "good boy". I thought I would have big problems because with a tennis ball his brings it so far then nudges it with his nose to me. But with a few mins a day and a bit of patience he is now fetching and retrieving on the flat and over the jump. I only started to teach him this in early June as he got his CD title at end of May. I have entered in a double trial on the 3/4 Sept with him. I am only learning clicker training and so did not clicker train him this or anything else so far. I have only used the clicker on him to get him to look at me and to stay close to me.

I have used the clicker on my staffy to get her to drop.

Just thought I'd share that.

[Kavik]

Diesel now holds the dumbell well and will carry it around while heeling or recalling to me. He will come and sit with it and give it nicely. He will reach for it in front of him and lower, and on the ground. Our problem now is speed on going to get the dumbell - he is very slow! And sometimes he pauses when he gets to the dumbell.

I tried some advice from K9 Force - no longer doing the sit stay first, and attaching some string to it so I can make it move if he gets disinterested. Which is sort of working, but I'm still thinking about it.

My next idea is (this is going to sound funny!) put the dumbell in a sock (he loves socks) and throw it with the sock on it to see if that helps, and to run with him to get the dumbell, make it a game to get it fast. We'll see how that goes . . .

Any other suggestions?