Dog Allergy Vet Disappointment Again!

[ESCS]

I have not tried this so I am not sure if it will work but a Brisbane vet told me that if our vet can write us a script for cyclosporin, I can order the medication directly from the company that makes them. They apparently deliver interstate. The vet said it is cheaper this way. She gave me the name of the company that makes this medication but I can't remember what it is as our tibbie's dose has now reduced to 3 times per week and it has become much more affordable. It might be worth looking into although I have not tried this myself and it was a couple of years ago when I was given this information ( I could be completely wrong!). While our tibbie doesn't have food allergies as such, the diet we have him on seems to have made a difference as it has allowed us to reduce our use of cyclosporin and cortisone. Sweet potato was recommended to us as something that may help allergic dogs. I wasn't sure if this was helping until I stopped giving him sweet potato a few weeks ago and he has become quite itchy again. It's not a cure but for us, it has helped so he's now back on it again.

All the best in finding something that works for you. Skin issues can be so frustrating!

[stormie]

Try having a Great Dane on Cyclosporin :laugh:

What about just using Cortisone? I know a lot of people frown upon it due to potential side effects, but it's cheap and it will provide quality of life for your dog. If managed correctly on as low dose as possible on alternate dogs, your dog could still live a normal life.

My boy's been on Cortisone for nearly 4 years now (along with Cyclosporin - he's bad and needs both) and while I'm aware he may not live as long, I'd rather he have quality of life now.

Did you work out what was causing the allergy first though? My vet said cortisone is only a bandaid and isnt actually getting down to what is the problem and didnt recommend due to the side effects.

Yep, we've done (and continue to do) food elimination trials and have also done two lots of blood tests (which determine the allergens) and a course of desensitising injections.

The success rate of desensitising injections isn't really all that high, so the chances of working out the allergy and avoiding it is pretty low.

There's no avoiding allergens either - even if you rip up every plant, tree, weed etc in your grass, the pollens from next down, down the road and even km's away are still blowing around and will affect them.

Cortisone isn't really just a bandaid. When the dogs encounter the allergen and their bodies release histamine, the effect on the skin is an inflammatory one. Cortisone is an anti inflammatory (and also an immune suppressant at higher doses) so takes away that inflammation which keeps the skin happy and reduces the chances of secondary skin infections.

The reason Cortisone and Cyclosporin are used so frequently really is because they're the only things that work. Like I said, unless you keep your dog in a bubble, you cannot keep it away from many of the allergens that are the problem. They're literally everywhere.

If you want more answers and to find our the definite cause of the dogs scratching, then you should do to a dermatologist. There's no 'test' for Atopy and the only way to properly diagnose it is by eliminating every other possibility (fleas, scabies, bacterial or fungal infections, food allergies etc), which in itself is time consuming and very expensive.

Edited May 22, 2012 by stormie

[SparkyTansy]

Allergies are such a difficult thing to treat, most vets don't want to even try and work out the cause and the specialists take on a lot of cases because they want to work out the cause and treat it.

I was told when I first decided on desensitisation injections that it was 3 out of 5 dogs improve (not cured) by doing desensitisation. I was one of the lucky ones where it worked for my boy. After about a year of injections, he was off cortisone completely.

he was initially very difficult to diagnose because he had both atopic and food allergies. he's now 10, and while occasionally has a bit of a setback during seasonal changes, he has only had to be on cortisone once since he came off it (6 years ago)

[dancinbcs]

Is there a human equivalent to the drug your dog needs? If so, the vet can give you a prescription and it can be purchased from your local chemist (obviously it won't be as cheap as PBS drugs but it will be cheaper than a vet can supply it for as chemists have larger buying capacity)...

My old stafford used a few drugs that had a human equivalent and it saved us a fortune getting them from the chemist.. Our vet was happy to write the script.

It actually is a human anti rejection drug originally used for transplant patients called Cyclosporine. Its cost is based on weight, so for my 30kg dog it works out to $360 a month.

Any good (reasonably priced) Holistic vets recommended in Victoria eastern suburbs?

Dr Anne Neville at Sth Rd Animal Health in East Bentleigh does Traditional Chinese Medicine as well as normal vet work. Any dog with allergies has a wonky immune system that needs to be fixed if possible. Some are born with it (which is harder to treat), others have problem triggered by a drug like the heartworm injection, antibiotics, etc or a food additive. Cortisone and cyclosporin stop the symptoms but do nothing to normalise the immune system. No matter what treatment you use it will take a long time but at least with alternative treatment or desensitising you are treating the cause not just symptoms.

I also agree with those that suggest an elimation diet. A vet I used to use would recommend that any itchy dog be tried on an all raw diet for a few weeks and then if the syptoms were still there, they should come back. At least half were fixed by the diet change. Sometimes a food or additive allergy will sensitise the dog to react to other more obvious allergens.

[Mason_Gibbs]

Agree food allergies are very common

[Kavik]

I'm finding that washing Diesel frequently is helping (once a week or once a fortnight depending on my time - with Malaseb) - at least to keep it to a bearable level. I think also this helps to keep good airflow through his coat by getting rid of the dead coat (bath and brush) which I also thinks makes a difference.

[westiemum]

Try having a Great Dane on Cyclosporin :laugh:

What about just using Cortisone? I know a lot of people frown upon it due to potential side effects, but it's cheap and it will provide quality of life for your dog. If managed correctly on as low dose as possible on alternate dogs, your dog could still live a normal life.

My boy's been on Cortisone for nearly 4 years now (along with Cyclosporin - he's bad and needs both) and while I'm aware he may not live as long, I'd rather he have quality of life now.

Did you work out what was causing the allergy first though? My vet said cortisone is only a bandaid and isnt actually getting down to what is the problem and didnt recommend due to the side effects.

Yep, we've done (and continue to do) food elimination trials and have also done two lots of blood tests (which determine the allergens) and a course of desensitising injections.

The success rate of desensitising injections isn't really all that high, so the chances of working out the allergy and avoiding it is pretty low.

There's no avoiding allergens either - even if you rip up every plant, tree, weed etc in your grass, the pollens from next down, down the road and even km's away are still blowing around and will affect them.

Cortisone isn't really just a bandaid. When the dogs encounter the allergen and their bodies release histamine, the effect on the skin is an inflammatory one. Cortisone is an anti inflammatory (and also an immune suppressant at higher doses) so takes away that inflammation which keeps the skin happy and reduces the chances of secondary skin infections.

The reason Cortisone and Cyclosporin are used so frequently really is because they're the only things that work. Like I said, unless you keep your dog in a bubble, you cannot keep it away from many of the allergens that are the problem. They're literally everywhere.

If you want more answers and to find our the definite cause of the dogs scratching, then you should do to a dermatologist. There's no 'test' for Atopy and the only way to properly diagnose it is by eliminating every other possibility (fleas, scabies, bacterial or fungal infections, food allergies etc), which in itself is time consuming and very expensive.

Great post Stormie. I tried so many things to try and help my westie girl - but none of them actually really helped. And she became more and more miserable as time went on. So in the end under dermatologist supervision I bit the bullet as I explained in my previous post - and the difference it's made to her is remarkable. So in my experience the cyclosporin was the only thing that worked for her too. Can't believe how much better her skin is!

Edited May 22, 2012 by westiemum

[booge]

Has anyone else used the online pharmacy supplies from overseas to get cheap medication? I saw a site called pharmnet.com and noticed their prices for a generic Cyclosporine were very cheap. All they need is the vet to email or fax the script.

[stormie]

Has anyone else used the online pharmacy supplies from overseas to get cheap medication? I saw a site called pharmnet.com and noticed their prices for a generic Cyclosporine were very cheap. All they need is the vet to email or fax the script.

Are they that much cheaper though?

I get mine from a compounding pharmacy (and I don't think it works as well as Atopica does, but it still helps) and the prices would be very similar.

I pay $550 for a 200mg/ml liquid in a 100ml bottle. This site sells 100mg/ml liquid in a 50ml bottle for $240. I'd need to buy 4 of those to get the same amount of doses as I currently get here.

[booge]

A box of 50mg capsules of Cyclosporine is $66 for a pack of 30. There's different strengths from 25mg up to 100mg. I'm assuming capsules could still be opened and put in the dogs food?

[persephone]

I'm assuming capsules could still be opened and put in the dogs food?

My guess is they are in capsule form so that this form of the active ingredient gets released where it needs to be released . As there is no taste to a sealed capsule , I find there is usually little resistance to slipping into a treat, or coating with butter and poking down :)

[booge]

I don't know what dosage, how many pills, would be required for my 30kg dog though. The vet didn't get that far in the conversation after I heard the price!

[stormie]

The dosage varies, but my boy is on 5mg/kg every day, so that's 300mg every day (he weighs 60kg). I think they recommend starting on the 5mg/kg dose.

Cyclosporin needs to be given on an empty stomach, so usually about 2 hours either side of a meal.

Why don't you ask your Vet to look into a compounding pharmacy for you? If the Vet is nice and doesn't charge you a mark-up on top of the pharmacy price, then you could buy what I buy, for about $550-600 which would last you 4 months even if you used it every day (though quite a few cases are able to get down to using it only a couple of times a week, in which case it would last you much longer than that!).

Edited May 25, 2012 by stormie

[Jumabaar]

Not sure if the vet mentioned using Ketoconazole to lower the dose of Cyclosporin. It reduces the speed that the body gets rid of Cyclosporin, and can reduce the cost of the overall treatment.

[aussielover]

Not sure if the vet mentioned using Ketoconazole to lower the dose of Cyclosporin. It reduces the speed that the body gets rid of Cyclosporin, and can reduce the cost of the overall treatment.

I have heard of bad experiences when doing this. Personally I wouldn't risk it.

Allergies are extremely frustrating for vets and owners to deal with

Special diets are generally only useful for food allergic dogs. Desensitization injections reduce itchiness in up to 70% of dogs that go thru the process. Unfortunately they don't help in around 30% of cases. It is extremely rare they completely resolve the problem though.

Cyclosporin and Pred are options for management of severe cases. They can greatly improve quality of life as stormie has said.

For less severe cases, anti histamines and topical steroid creams/sprays can help manage allergic dogs.

My own dog is moderately to badly affected by atopic dermatitis. She is allergic to pollens, grasses and dust (so basically to life!). She is currently managed with twice daily anti histamines, topical creams and desensitization injections although she remains moderately itchy but less so than previously. Unfortunately she reacts quite badly to pred (lethargy, polyphagia) so I prefer to keep her off it. We will re evaulate her for cyclosporine once she has finished the course of desensitization injections.

[bonny_beagle]

Has anyone else used the online pharmacy supplies from overseas to get cheap medication? I saw a site called pharmnet.com and noticed their prices for a generic Cyclosporine were very cheap. All they need is the vet to email or fax the script.

Bringing prescription medication into Aust from overseas requires an import licence so be prepared for customs to confiscate if they see your package.

[Mason_Gibbs]

Not sure if the vet mentioned using Ketoconazole to lower the dose of Cyclosporin. It reduces the speed that the body gets rid of Cyclosporin, and can reduce the cost of the overall treatment.

I have heard of bad experiences when doing this. Personally I wouldn't risk it.

Allergies are extremely frustrating for vets and owners to deal with

Special diets are generally only useful for food allergic dogs. Desensitization injections reduce itchiness in up to 70% of dogs that go thru the process. Unfortunately they don't help in around 30% of cases. It is extremely rare they completely resolve the problem though.

Cyclosporin and Pred are options for management of severe cases. They can greatly improve quality of life as stormie has said.

For less severe cases, anti histamines and topical steroid creams/sprays can help manage allergic dogs.

My own dog is moderately to badly affected by atopic dermatitis. She is allergic to pollens, grasses and dust (so basically to life!). She is currently managed with twice daily anti histamines, topical creams and desensitization injections although she remains moderately itchy but less so than previously. Unfortunately she reacts quite badly to pred (lethargy, polyphagia) so I prefer to keep her off it. We will re evaulate her for cyclosporine once she has finished the course of desensitization injections.

Doing all the same with Mason but he gets 5mg pred daily or every second day, he is also badly affected hence the low dose. I hate giving it to him but without it some days would be horrible for him

[shepherds4me]

Holistic vet worked wonders for me but I am in Briz so won`t help for Victoria.

If you can find a holistic vet that does NAET allergy testing as done by : http://www.kathycornack.com/services.html

Also homeopathics at: http://www.holisticanimalmedicines.com/ you can phone them up and have a chat, very approachable.

My shepherd has inflammable bowel condition which I was told was incurable... .. on hills prescription zd and never thought she could have "nice" food again, but with patience and holistic healing she is now enjoying turkey mince, cooked liver, chicken necks and rice on a rotating basis and hopefully add vegies and perhaps other foods (added to the hills at this stage). She also has slippery elm powder (magic stuff!) and a probiotic.

She was also very itchy and constant licking which has improved out of sight.:)

This is my experience - oh Reiki too if you do it! All the best - keep searching and NEVER GIVE UP!

[sas]

Hi, can I suggest, if you haven't already, look at diet. Dr Bruce Syme has a 70% success rate at controlling atopic allergies just through diet. If your interested in having a phone chat with him just let me know.

Really? How do you come up with that figure? How can you know of the people who try the product who gets results? How does one treat atopy through diet? Is it really atopy then? Are these dogs actually diagnosed as atopy?

[Mason_Gibbs]

Yeah VAn Never worked wonders for my Atopy dog lol