My Niece Wants A Dd Just Like Gillards!

[liverchips]

People get sick of it and that is why a lot end up in shelters in such a matted condition.

One of the arguments used by anti "designer dogs" is that designer dogs like "cavoodles" and "spoodles" etc. are bred in puppy farms. If a puppy farm is registered or if a puppy is sold through a pet shop i.e. domestic animal business they must be microchipped. Does anyone have any actual data or stats that support this theory

The 'theory' that they're bred in puppy farms?

The problem is that there's no universally accepted version of what a 'puppy farm' is. Some establishments that I would consider puppy farms are actually registered businesses that are licensed to do what they do - thus, they're not illegal. Being legal in my opinion doesn't make them okay, or something that I would ever consider supporting by buying a dog from them. Nobody advertises that they're a puppy farm, that would be marketing suicide. But a lot of registered establishments that are perfectly legal domestic animal businesses that microchip their pups and operate all above board, but are what I would consider puppy farms. A lot of similar establishment aren't registered though. I'd never support either kind, regardless of how legal and officially legitimate they are.

I'm not going to name establishments on here, but there are a number of "kennels" with nice sounding names like heatherview palace or blah blah fields, that type of thing, that you can order puppies from online. They're not going to put pictures of animals kept in cages and continually bred from. They have pictures that look like stock, getty images type photos of puppies running through fields etc.

Lots of crosses like cavoodles, spoodle etc, are bred by "backyard breeders" - you find them through ads in the paper, and someone's bred their pet or decided to start breeding dogs. Those aren't what I would consider puppy farms, but they're equally not something that I want to support.

Have a google, it won't take you long to find some pretty shocking things.

I agree with your definition of "puppy farm/factory". The term "puppy farm" conjures up different images into different people’s heads but normally its images of dogs in tiny cages in their own filth etc. These same images have been used by animal liberation type groups to get the publics attention but I came across a thread on the burkes backyard forum about a new "kennel" being built in Victoria. Some people have called it a "puppy farm" and although I don't support commercial breeders I was surprised to read that this breeder intends to build a "dog park" with sand pits and even an in ground swimming pool amongst other things. They have a website that goes over everything www.hepburnpark.com

Would you consider this place a "puppy farm"?

[darlingdog]

People get sick of it and that is why a lot end up in shelters in such a matted condition.

One of the arguments used by anti "designer dogs" is that designer dogs like "cavoodles" and "spoodles" etc. are bred in puppy farms. If a puppy farm is registered or if a puppy is sold through a pet shop i.e. domestic animal business they must be microchipped. Does anyone have any actual data or stats that support this theory

The 'theory' that they're bred in puppy farms?

The problem is that there's no universally accepted version of what a 'puppy farm' is. Some establishments that I would consider puppy farms are actually registered businesses that are licensed to do what they do - thus, they're not illegal. Being legal in my opinion doesn't make them okay, or something that I would ever consider supporting by buying a dog from them. Nobody advertises that they're a puppy farm, that would be marketing suicide. But a lot of registered establishments that are perfectly legal domestic animal businesses that microchip their pups and operate all above board, but are what I would consider puppy farms. A lot of similar establishment aren't registered though. I'd never support either kind, regardless of how legal and officially legitimate they are.

I'm not going to name establishments on here, but there are a number of "kennels" with nice sounding names like heatherview palace or blah blah fields, that type of thing, that you can order puppies from online. They're not going to put pictures of animals kept in cages and continually bred from. They have pictures that look like stock, getty images type photos of puppies running through fields etc.

Lots of crosses like cavoodles, spoodle etc, are bred by "backyard breeders" - you find them through ads in the paper, and someone's bred their pet or decided to start breeding dogs. Those aren't what I would consider puppy farms, but they're equally not something that I want to support.

Have a google, it won't take you long to find some pretty shocking things.

I agree with your definition of "puppy farm/factory". The term "puppy farm" conjures up different images into different people’s heads but normally its images of dogs in tiny cages in their own filth etc. These same images have been used by animal liberation type groups to get the publics attention but I came across a thread on the burkes backyard forum about a new "kennel" being built in Victoria. Some people have called it a "puppy farm" and although I don't support commercial breeders I was surprised to read that this breeder intends to build a "dog park" with sand pits and even an in ground swimming pool amongst other things. They have a website that goes over everything www.hepburnpark.com

Would you consider this place a "puppy farm"?

Yes I do consider it a puppy farm....large scale commercial breeder. Swimming pools and sand pits are just gilding the lilly in my opinion. It's still a lilly..so to speak. I sent an email to the gardener telling him in no uncertain terms what I think of his promotion of such places.

[Squidgy]

People get sick of it and that is why a lot end up in shelters in such a matted condition.

One of the arguments used by anti "designer dogs" is that designer dogs like "cavoodles" and "spoodles" etc. are bred in puppy farms. If a puppy farm is registered or if a puppy is sold through a pet shop i.e. domestic animal business they must be microchipped. Does anyone have any actual data or stats that support this theory

The 'theory' that they're bred in puppy farms?

The problem is that there's no universally accepted version of what a 'puppy farm' is. Some establishments that I would consider puppy farms are actually registered businesses that are licensed to do what they do - thus, they're not illegal. Being legal in my opinion doesn't make them okay, or something that I would ever consider supporting by buying a dog from them. Nobody advertises that they're a puppy farm, that would be marketing suicide. But a lot of registered establishments that are perfectly legal domestic animal businesses that microchip their pups and operate all above board, but are what I would consider puppy farms. A lot of similar establishment aren't registered though. I'd never support either kind, regardless of how legal and officially legitimate they are.

I'm not going to name establishments on here, but there are a number of "kennels" with nice sounding names like heatherview palace or blah blah fields, that type of thing, that you can order puppies from online. They're not going to put pictures of animals kept in cages and continually bred from. They have pictures that look like stock, getty images type photos of puppies running through fields etc.

Lots of crosses like cavoodles, spoodle etc, are bred by "backyard breeders" - you find them through ads in the paper, and someone's bred their pet or decided to start breeding dogs. Those aren't what I would consider puppy farms, but they're equally not something that I want to support.

Have a google, it won't take you long to find some pretty shocking things.

I agree with your definition of "puppy farm/factory". The term "puppy farm" conjures up different images into different people’s heads but normally its images of dogs in tiny cages in their own filth etc. These same images have been used by animal liberation type groups to get the publics attention but I came across a thread on the burkes backyard forum about a new "kennel" being built in Victoria. Some people have called it a "puppy farm" and although I don't support commercial breeders I was surprised to read that this breeder intends to build a "dog park" with sand pits and even an in ground swimming pool amongst other things. They have a website that goes over everything www.hepburnpark.com

Would you consider this place a "puppy farm"?

Meh...until I see photos and reviews of this up and running I call BS :)

Its easy to talk up a big game but seeing a place thats main concern is profit I would like to see them prove it before I commend them on anything.

[Jed]

Liverchips

I agree with your definition of "puppy farm/factory". The term "puppy farm" conjures up different images into different people’s heads but normally its images of dogs in tiny cages in their own filth etc. These same images have been used by animal liberation type groups to get the publics attention but I came across a thread on the burkes backyard forum about a new "kennel" being built in Victoria. Some people have called it a "puppy farm" and although I don't support commercial breeders I was surprised to read that this breeder intends to build a "dog park" with sand pits and even an in ground swimming pool amongst other things. They have a website that goes over everything www.hepburnpark.com

Would you consider this place a "puppy farm"?

Dogs are not agricultural animals. Dogs are pets, workers, companions. Dogs may be bred in large establishments, but no matter how many ponds, pools, sand pits, or gardener recommendations they may have the basic philosophy is totally flawed. You can breed cows and pigs and sheep like that, because you are going to eat them, not play with them.

Dogs from those places are sometimes ok, but often not. When people buy them, they have no idea what the pup will turn into. I notice that the dogs which are bred in these establishments are the "easy" breeds, it doesn't matter if you abuse them, they probably wont attack you. And they are being abused.

Additionally, the only reason anyone would keep multiple dogs like that is M O N E Y. It seems to me that to breed dogs like that is not very ethical, but an excellent way of making a lot of money.

Burke may recommend it, but what does he know of dogs? He is a gardener. He doesn't even know enough to know it is just wrong ... and if he does, he doesn't care, because he is making money. And he is bashing the ANKC which has always been his motive, according to what he said years ago.

Additionally, the parent dogs come from dodgy sources - other puppy farms, pet shops, markets, stolen, from classified ads for giveaway purebreds, by people who bought a pet and couldn't persist with it. Surely none of these places are a good source of breeding dogs. There is a psychological component to breeding good pups, and puppy farms can't provide it.

You wouldn't breed the pony down the road to the baker's horse and expect Black Caviar.

Why do people expect a good pet when bred from 4th rate stock kept in misery bred by people whose only interest is the income?

And every time someone buys one of these oodly pups, they are condeming yet more harmless little dogs to lives of utter misery, with insufficient human contact. And being kept in a cage with messy eyes isn't the only horror. Being kept with other dogs with insufficient human interaction, not going anywhere off the place, being given rudimentary grooming and care, and being put down when you can't breed any more isn't very appealing either.

No one who is right minded could possibly think this is the right way to breed dogs. No one who is informed and right minded could possibly think this is the place to buy a family pet, or an obedience prospect, or a tracker from.

[Alkhe]

I agree with everything you said, Jed. Great post Sometimes I wish this forum had the ability to give people reputation points!

People get sick of it and that is why a lot end up in shelters in such a matted condition.

One of the arguments used by anti "designer dogs" is that designer dogs like "cavoodles" and "spoodles" etc. are bred in puppy farms. If a puppy farm is registered or if a puppy is sold through a pet shop i.e. domestic animal business they must be microchipped. Does anyone have any actual data or stats that support this theory

The 'theory' that they're bred in puppy farms?

The problem is that there's no universally accepted version of what a 'puppy farm' is. Some establishments that I would consider puppy farms are actually registered businesses that are licensed to do what they do - thus, they're not illegal. Being legal in my opinion doesn't make them okay, or something that I would ever consider supporting by buying a dog from them. Nobody advertises that they're a puppy farm, that would be marketing suicide. But a lot of registered establishments that are perfectly legal domestic animal businesses that microchip their pups and operate all above board, but are what I would consider puppy farms. A lot of similar establishment aren't registered though. I'd never support either kind, regardless of how legal and officially legitimate they are.

I'm not going to name establishments on here, but there are a number of "kennels" with nice sounding names like heatherview palace or blah blah fields, that type of thing, that you can order puppies from online. They're not going to put pictures of animals kept in cages and continually bred from. They have pictures that look like stock, getty images type photos of puppies running through fields etc.

Lots of crosses like cavoodles, spoodle etc, are bred by "backyard breeders" - you find them through ads in the paper, and someone's bred their pet or decided to start breeding dogs. Those aren't what I would consider puppy farms, but they're equally not something that I want to support.

Have a google, it won't take you long to find some pretty shocking things.

I agree with your definition of "puppy farm/factory". The term "puppy farm" conjures up different images into different people’s heads but normally its images of dogs in tiny cages in their own filth etc. These same images have been used by animal liberation type groups to get the publics attention but I came across a thread on the burkes backyard forum about a new "kennel" being built in Victoria. Some people have called it a "puppy farm" and although I don't support commercial breeders I was surprised to read that this breeder intends to build a "dog park" with sand pits and even an in ground swimming pool amongst other things. They have a website that goes over everything www.hepburnpark.com

Would you consider this place a "puppy farm"?

Look, I'm not going to get into the realm of defamation and unsubstantiated comments, but my understanding is that that establishment is being developed by the operator of a known .. establishment that I in no way support. I could never lend my support to any operation, commercial or otherwise, that exists to breed dogs like that. Crosses, designed to cater to a market that really should be educated and informed.

That's a nice website with great PR and it's slick and could really be marketing anything. It's got a lot of words but they don't actually say anything. (I'm a bureaucrat, I'm very adept at writing crap like that and smoothing things over and promising everything while providing nothing. I can recognise it a mile away, too.) Dogs don't give a rat's about landscaping and how pristine gardens are. That's designed to appeal to people, and no amount of landscaping, lawns, paths, hedges and trees are going to convince me that something like that is something worth supporting in principle, financially, or in any other way. The whole website reads like it's trying to convince me of its virtue and almost cover its arse - to me, it screams run a mile. The part defending itself against Animal Activists as if they're a cohesive group of devilish clones with a unified agenda who could never supporting the breeding of dogs, is ludicrous. And it's dog whistling.

I find places that are designed and purpose built to breed dogs like that fundamentally unnecessary. I disagree with them on principle, and even if the dogs are given access to a "private dog park" and whelp in boxes with whatever thickness of insulated whatever.. I don't care. What Jed said is spot on - dogs aren't agricultural creatures and they can't be treated that way.

The pictures on that site are from god knows where, as it appears that the place hasn't even been finished yet. Whether I think it's a puppy farm or factory or whatever is irrelevant, really. I don't condone places like that - and look, who cares what I personally condone. I'm just a loser on an internet forum who's very passionate about animals. There's been enough discussion about this kind of thing on this and other forums, I don't know what else I can say that will really clarify or shed light on or do anything other than add to the white noise. My moral objections aren't going to change this or any other similar place. All I know is that while there are great rescues and brilliant breeders out there, I'm not going to lend any credence to places like that. Yes, there are dodgy rescues and sh*t ANKC registered breeders who aren't worth the weight of hte paper their pedigrees are printed on. I wouldn't buy a pup fro them either - slick marketing, a dot com and a Harry Potter-esque logo does not a good breeder make.

[Squidgy]

I agree with everything you said, Jed. Great post Sometimes I wish this forum had the ability to give people reputation points!

People get sick of it and that is why a lot end up in shelters in such a matted condition.

One of the arguments used by anti "designer dogs" is that designer dogs like "cavoodles" and "spoodles" etc. are bred in puppy farms. If a puppy farm is registered or if a puppy is sold through a pet shop i.e. domestic animal business they must be microchipped. Does anyone have any actual data or stats that support this theory

The 'theory' that they're bred in puppy farms?

The problem is that there's no universally accepted version of what a 'puppy farm' is. Some establishments that I would consider puppy farms are actually registered businesses that are licensed to do what they do - thus, they're not illegal. Being legal in my opinion doesn't make them okay, or something that I would ever consider supporting by buying a dog from them. Nobody advertises that they're a puppy farm, that would be marketing suicide. But a lot of registered establishments that are perfectly legal domestic animal businesses that microchip their pups and operate all above board, but are what I would consider puppy farms. A lot of similar establishment aren't registered though. I'd never support either kind, regardless of how legal and officially legitimate they are.

I'm not going to name establishments on here, but there are a number of "kennels" with nice sounding names like heatherview palace or blah blah fields, that type of thing, that you can order puppies from online. They're not going to put pictures of animals kept in cages and continually bred from. They have pictures that look like stock, getty images type photos of puppies running through fields etc.

Lots of crosses like cavoodles, spoodle etc, are bred by "backyard breeders" - you find them through ads in the paper, and someone's bred their pet or decided to start breeding dogs. Those aren't what I would consider puppy farms, but they're equally not something that I want to support.

Have a google, it won't take you long to find some pretty shocking things.

I agree with your definition of "puppy farm/factory". The term "puppy farm" conjures up different images into different people’s heads but normally its images of dogs in tiny cages in their own filth etc. These same images have been used by animal liberation type groups to get the publics attention but I came across a thread on the burkes backyard forum about a new "kennel" being built in Victoria. Some people have called it a "puppy farm" and although I don't support commercial breeders I was surprised to read that this breeder intends to build a "dog park" with sand pits and even an in ground swimming pool amongst other things. They have a website that goes over everything www.hepburnpark.com

Would you consider this place a "puppy farm"?

Look, I'm not going to get into the realm of defamation and unsubstantiated comments, but my understanding is that that establishment is being developed by the operator of a known .. establishment that I in no way support. I could never lend my support to any operation, commercial or otherwise, that exists to breed dogs like that. Crosses, designed to cater to a market that really should be educated and informed.

That's a nice website with great PR and it's slick and could really be marketing anything. It's got a lot of words but they don't actually say anything. (I'm a bureaucrat, I'm very adept at writing crap like that and smoothing things over and promising everything while providing nothing. I can recognise it a mile away, too.) Dogs don't give a rat's about landscaping and how pristine gardens are. That's designed to appeal to people, and no amount of landscaping, lawns, paths, hedges and trees are going to convince me that something like that is something worth supporting in principle, financially, or in any other way. The whole website reads like it's trying to convince me of its virtue and almost cover its arse - to me, it screams run a mile. The part defending itself against Animal Activists as if they're a cohesive group of devilish clones with a unified agenda who could never supporting the breeding of dogs, is ludicrous. And it's dog whistling.

I find places that are designed and purpose built to breed dogs like that fundamentally unnecessary. I disagree with them on principle, and even if the dogs are given access to a "private dog park" and whelp in boxes with whatever thickness of insulated whatever.. I don't care. What Jed said is spot on - dogs aren't agricultural creatures and they can't be treated that way.

The pictures on that site are from god knows where, as it appears that the place hasn't even been finished yet. Whether I think it's a puppy farm or factory or whatever is irrelevant, really. I don't condone places like that - and look, who cares what I personally condone. I'm just a loser on an internet forum who's very passionate about animals. There's been enough discussion about this kind of thing on this and other forums, I don't know what else I can say that will really clarify or shed light on or do anything other than add to the white noise. My moral objections aren't going to change this or any other similar place. All I know is that while there are great rescues and brilliant breeders out there, I'm not going to lend any credence to places like that. Yes, there are dodgy rescues and sh*t ANKC registered breeders who aren't worth the weight of hte paper their pedigrees are printed on. I wouldn't buy a pup fro them either - slick marketing, a dot com and a Harry Potter-esque logo does not a good breeder make.

[Alkhe]

Liverchips

I agree with your definition of "puppy farm/factory". The term "puppy farm" conjures up different images into different people’s heads but normally its images of dogs in tiny cages in their own filth etc. These same images have been used by animal liberation type groups to get the publics attention but I came across a thread on the burkes backyard forum about a new "kennel" being built in Victoria. Some people have called it a "puppy farm" and although I don't support commercial breeders I was surprised to read that this breeder intends to build a "dog park" with sand pits and even an in ground swimming pool amongst other things. They have a website that goes over everything www.hepburnpark.com

Would you consider this place a "puppy farm"?

Dogs are not agricultural animals. Dogs are pets, workers, companions. Dogs may be bred in large establishments, but no matter how many ponds, pools, sand pits, or gardener recommendations they may have the basic philosophy is totally flawed. You can breed cows and pigs and sheep like that, because you are going to eat them, not play with them.

Dogs from those places are sometimes ok, but often not. When people buy them, they have no idea what the pup will turn into. I notice that the dogs which are bred in these establishments are the "easy" breeds, it doesn't matter if you abuse them, they probably wont attack you. And they are being abused.

Additionally, the only reason anyone would keep multiple dogs like that is M O N E Y. It seems to me that to breed dogs like that is not very ethical, but an excellent way of making a lot of money.

Burke may recommend it, but what does he know of dogs? He is a gardener. He doesn't even know enough to know it is just wrong ... and if he does, he doesn't care, because he is making money. And he is bashing the ANKC which has always been his motive, according to what he said years ago.

Additionally, the parent dogs come from dodgy sources - other puppy farms, pet shops, markets, stolen, from classified ads for giveaway purebreds, by people who bought a pet and couldn't persist with it. Surely none of these places are a good source of breeding dogs. There is a psychological component to breeding good pups, and puppy farms can't provide it.

You wouldn't breed the pony down the road to the baker's horse and expect Black Caviar.

Why do people expect a good pet when bred from 4th rate stock kept in misery bred by people whose only interest is the income?

And every time someone buys one of these oodly pups, they are condeming yet more harmless little dogs to lives of utter misery, with insufficient human contact. And being kept in a cage with messy eyes isn't the only horror. Being kept with other dogs with insufficient human interaction, not going anywhere off the place, being given rudimentary grooming and care, and being put down when you can't breed any more isn't very appealing either.

No one who is right minded could possibly think this is the right way to breed dogs. No one who is informed and right minded could possibly think this is the place to buy a family pet, or an obedience prospect, or a tracker from.

Just read this post again. Such a great, great post - I thought i'd read all the best ways of putting it but you've really hit the nail on the head.

[Ellie]

Liverchips

I agree with your definition of "puppy farm/factory". The term "puppy farm" conjures up different images into different people's heads but normally its images of dogs in tiny cages in their own filth etc. These same images have been used by animal liberation type groups to get the publics attention but I came across a thread on the burkes backyard forum about a new "kennel" being built in Victoria. Some people have called it a "puppy farm" and although I don't support commercial breeders I was surprised to read that this breeder intends to build a "dog park" with sand pits and even an in ground swimming pool amongst other things. They have a website that goes over everything www.hepburnpark.com

Would you consider this place a "puppy farm"?

Dogs are not agricultural animals. Dogs are pets, workers, companions. Dogs may be bred in large establishments, but no matter how many ponds, pools, sand pits, or gardener recommendations they may have the basic philosophy is totally flawed. You can breed cows and pigs and sheep like that, because you are going to eat them, not play with them.

Dogs from those places are sometimes ok, but often not. When people buy them, they have no idea what the pup will turn into. I notice that the dogs which are bred in these establishments are the "easy" breeds, it doesn't matter if you abuse them, they probably wont attack you. And they are being abused.

Additionally, the only reason anyone would keep multiple dogs like that is M O N E Y. It seems to me that to breed dogs like that is not very ethical, but an excellent way of making a lot of money.

Burke may recommend it, but what does he know of dogs? He is a gardener. He doesn't even know enough to know it is just wrong ... and if he does, he doesn't care, because he is making money. And he is bashing the ANKC which has always been his motive, according to what he said years ago.

Additionally, the parent dogs come from dodgy sources - other puppy farms, pet shops, markets, stolen, from classified ads for giveaway purebreds, by people who bought a pet and couldn't persist with it. Surely none of these places are a good source of breeding dogs. There is a psychological component to breeding good pups, and puppy farms can't provide it.

You wouldn't breed the pony down the road to the baker's horse and expect Black Caviar.

Why do people expect a good pet when bred from 4th rate stock kept in misery bred by people whose only interest is the income?

And every time someone buys one of these oodly pups, they are condeming yet more harmless little dogs to lives of utter misery, with insufficient human contact. And being kept in a cage with messy eyes isn't the only horror. Being kept with other dogs with insufficient human interaction, not going anywhere off the place, being given rudimentary grooming and care, and being put down when you can't breed any more isn't very appealing either.

No one who is right minded could possibly think this is the right way to breed dogs. No one who is informed and right minded could possibly think this is the place to buy a family pet, or an obedience prospect, or a tracker from.

Excellent post Jed. Thank you.

[liverchips]

I agree with everything you said, Jed. Great post Sometimes I wish this forum had the ability to give people reputation points!

People get sick of it and that is why a lot end up in shelters in such a matted condition.

One of the arguments used by anti "designer dogs" is that designer dogs like "cavoodles" and "spoodles" etc. are bred in puppy farms. If a puppy farm is registered or if a puppy is sold through a pet shop i.e. domestic animal business they must be microchipped. Does anyone have any actual data or stats that support this theory

The 'theory' that they're bred in puppy farms?

The problem is that there's no universally accepted version of what a 'puppy farm' is. Some establishments that I would consider puppy farms are actually registered businesses that are licensed to do what they do - thus, they're not illegal. Being legal in my opinion doesn't make them okay, or something that I would ever consider supporting by buying a dog from them. Nobody advertises that they're a puppy farm, that would be marketing suicide. But a lot of registered establishments that are perfectly legal domestic animal businesses that microchip their pups and operate all above board, but are what I would consider puppy farms. A lot of similar establishment aren't registered though. I'd never support either kind, regardless of how legal and officially legitimate they are.

I'm not going to name establishments on here, but there are a number of "kennels" with nice sounding names like heatherview palace or blah blah fields, that type of thing, that you can order puppies from online. They're not going to put pictures of animals kept in cages and continually bred from. They have pictures that look like stock, getty images type photos of puppies running through fields etc.

Lots of crosses like cavoodles, spoodle etc, are bred by "backyard breeders" - you find them through ads in the paper, and someone's bred their pet or decided to start breeding dogs. Those aren't what I would consider puppy farms, but they're equally not something that I want to support.

Have a google, it won't take you long to find some pretty shocking things.

I agree with your definition of "puppy farm/factory". The term "puppy farm" conjures up different images into different people’s heads but normally its images of dogs in tiny cages in their own filth etc. These same images have been used by animal liberation type groups to get the publics attention but I came across a thread on the burkes backyard forum about a new "kennel" being built in Victoria. Some people have called it a "puppy farm" and although I don't support commercial breeders I was surprised to read that this breeder intends to build a "dog park" with sand pits and even an in ground swimming pool amongst other things. They have a website that goes over everything www.hepburnpark.com

Would you consider this place a "puppy farm"?

Look, I'm not going to get into the realm of defamation and unsubstantiated comments, but my understanding is that that establishment is being developed by the operator of a known .. establishment that I in no way support. I could never lend my support to any operation, commercial or otherwise, that exists to breed dogs like that. Crosses, designed to cater to a market that really should be educated and informed.

That's a nice website with great PR and it's slick and could really be marketing anything. It's got a lot of words but they don't actually say anything. (I'm a bureaucrat, I'm very adept at writing crap like that and smoothing things over and promising everything while providing nothing. I can recognise it a mile away, too.) Dogs don't give a rat's about landscaping and how pristine gardens are. That's designed to appeal to people, and no amount of landscaping, lawns, paths, hedges and trees are going to convince me that something like that is something worth supporting in principle, financially, or in any other way. The whole website reads like it's trying to convince me of its virtue and almost cover its arse - to me, it screams run a mile. The part defending itself against Animal Activists as if they're a cohesive group of devilish clones with a unified agenda who could never supporting the breeding of dogs, is ludicrous. And it's dog whistling.

I find places that are designed and purpose built to breed dogs like that fundamentally unnecessary. I disagree with them on principle, and even if the dogs are given access to a "private dog park" and whelp in boxes with whatever thickness of insulated whatever.. I don't care. What Jed said is spot on - dogs aren't agricultural creatures and they can't be treated that way.

The pictures on that site are from god knows where, as it appears that the place hasn't even been finished yet. Whether I think it's a puppy farm or factory or whatever is irrelevant, really. I don't condone places like that - and look, who cares what I personally condone. I'm just a loser on an internet forum who's very passionate about animals. There's been enough discussion about this kind of thing on this and other forums, I don't know what else I can say that will really clarify or shed light on or do anything other than add to the white noise. My moral objections aren't going to change this or any other similar place. All I know is that while there are great rescues and brilliant breeders out there, I'm not going to lend any credence to places like that. Yes, there are dodgy rescues and sh*t ANKC registered breeders who aren't worth the weight of hte paper their pedigrees are printed on. I wouldn't buy a pup fro them either - slick marketing, a dot com and a Harry Potter-esque logo does not a good breeder make.

I agree with some of your points but my question was would you consider this place a "puppy farm" not if you condone this place. I don't think I could condone this type of place but it doesn't really fit into my definition of a "puppy farm" either. When I think of puppy farms I think of dogs being kept in filthy places with very little or no vet care, no socialization and normally very hidden. This place hasn't been built yet but if it was to be built the way the owner says it will it's difficult for me to see how the dogs would be suffering and its clearly being open about its intentions and motivations. I don't like the idea of dogs being bred for money but it doesn't automatically mean suffering for the dogs, so when your niece comes to you and says she wants to buy a "cavoodle" from Hepburn Park and you say they are a puppy farm what do you say when she answers "no they're not, look they have dog parks, they are clean and even have a swimming pool etc."?

How do you convince your niece without using words like "probably" "may" "usually" "often" in other words not assuming the worst is happening there but having some proof of the suffering taking place there?

[Squidgy]

Because as Jed said dogs are not agricultural animals and should not be factory farmed

[liverchips]

Because as Jed said dogs are not agricultural animals and should not be factory farmed

So what is your definition of a "puppy farm" or "puppy factory"? If a show judge has 50 Golden Retrievers is he a puppy farmer? or is he factory farming dogs?

[WExtremeG]

There is a phrase I have heard;

"There are those that live to breed and those that breed to live"

So anyone that comes into the second category is a puppy farmer - they are not doing it for the love of dogs and their breed, they are doing it to improve/maintain other aspects of their lives.  That includes Mr & Mrs Smith from number 39 who are having a litter from Fluffy to help fund their Holiday, Christmas, new car etc all the way up to the guy in Wales with 300 dogs in one barn that have never seen grass or the sky.

If you do not intend to leave the breed in a better state than you found it, you are a puppy farmer.

Found this...and I agree.

[dogbesotted]

She must be the only one that Idolises Julia at the moment :laugh:

Does anyone idolize the alternative? What sort of dog does he own?

he definitely owns a rare budgie smuggler pooch

H

[tdierikx]

From the pictures Google gives up, it looks like Abbott is also a DD owner...

T.

[Alkhe]

I agree with everything you said, Jed. Great post Sometimes I wish this forum had the ability to give people reputation points!

People get sick of it and that is why a lot end up in shelters in such a matted condition.

One of the arguments used by anti "designer dogs" is that designer dogs like "cavoodles" and "spoodles" etc. are bred in puppy farms. If a puppy farm is registered or if a puppy is sold through a pet shop i.e. domestic animal business they must be microchipped. Does anyone have any actual data or stats that support this theory

The 'theory' that they're bred in puppy farms?

The problem is that there's no universally accepted version of what a 'puppy farm' is. Some establishments that I would consider puppy farms are actually registered businesses that are licensed to do what they do - thus, they're not illegal. Being legal in my opinion doesn't make them okay, or something that I would ever consider supporting by buying a dog from them. Nobody advertises that they're a puppy farm, that would be marketing suicide. But a lot of registered establishments that are perfectly legal domestic animal businesses that microchip their pups and operate all above board, but are what I would consider puppy farms. A lot of similar establishment aren't registered though. I'd never support either kind, regardless of how legal and officially legitimate they are.

I'm not going to name establishments on here, but there are a number of "kennels" with nice sounding names like heatherview palace or blah blah fields, that type of thing, that you can order puppies from online. They're not going to put pictures of animals kept in cages and continually bred from. They have pictures that look like stock, getty images type photos of puppies running through fields etc.

Lots of crosses like cavoodles, spoodle etc, are bred by "backyard breeders" - you find them through ads in the paper, and someone's bred their pet or decided to start breeding dogs. Those aren't what I would consider puppy farms, but they're equally not something that I want to support.

Have a google, it won't take you long to find some pretty shocking things.

I agree with your definition of "puppy farm/factory". The term "puppy farm" conjures up different images into different people’s heads but normally its images of dogs in tiny cages in their own filth etc. These same images have been used by animal liberation type groups to get the publics attention but I came across a thread on the burkes backyard forum about a new "kennel" being built in Victoria. Some people have called it a "puppy farm" and although I don't support commercial breeders I was surprised to read that this breeder intends to build a "dog park" with sand pits and even an in ground swimming pool amongst other things. They have a website that goes over everything www.hepburnpark.com

Would you consider this place a "puppy farm"?

Look, I'm not going to get into the realm of defamation and unsubstantiated comments, but my understanding is that that establishment is being developed by the operator of a known .. establishment that I in no way support. I could never lend my support to any operation, commercial or otherwise, that exists to breed dogs like that. Crosses, designed to cater to a market that really should be educated and informed.

That's a nice website with great PR and it's slick and could really be marketing anything. It's got a lot of words but they don't actually say anything. (I'm a bureaucrat, I'm very adept at writing crap like that and smoothing things over and promising everything while providing nothing. I can recognise it a mile away, too.) Dogs don't give a rat's about landscaping and how pristine gardens are. That's designed to appeal to people, and no amount of landscaping, lawns, paths, hedges and trees are going to convince me that something like that is something worth supporting in principle, financially, or in any other way. The whole website reads like it's trying to convince me of its virtue and almost cover its arse - to me, it screams run a mile. The part defending itself against Animal Activists as if they're a cohesive group of devilish clones with a unified agenda who could never supporting the breeding of dogs, is ludicrous. And it's dog whistling.

I find places that are designed and purpose built to breed dogs like that fundamentally unnecessary. I disagree with them on principle, and even if the dogs are given access to a "private dog park" and whelp in boxes with whatever thickness of insulated whatever.. I don't care. What Jed said is spot on - dogs aren't agricultural creatures and they can't be treated that way.

The pictures on that site are from god knows where, as it appears that the place hasn't even been finished yet. Whether I think it's a puppy farm or factory or whatever is irrelevant, really. I don't condone places like that - and look, who cares what I personally condone. I'm just a loser on an internet forum who's very passionate about animals. There's been enough discussion about this kind of thing on this and other forums, I don't know what else I can say that will really clarify or shed light on or do anything other than add to the white noise. My moral objections aren't going to change this or any other similar place. All I know is that while there are great rescues and brilliant breeders out there, I'm not going to lend any credence to places like that. Yes, there are dodgy rescues and sh*t ANKC registered breeders who aren't worth the weight of hte paper their pedigrees are printed on. I wouldn't buy a pup fro them either - slick marketing, a dot com and a Harry Potter-esque logo does not a good breeder make.

I agree with some of your points but my question was would you consider this place a "puppy farm" not if you condone this place. I don't think I could condone this type of place but it doesn't really fit into my definition of a "puppy farm" either. When I think of puppy farms I think of dogs being kept in filthy places with very little or no vet care, no socialization and normally very hidden. This place hasn't been built yet but if it was to be built the way the owner says it will it's difficult for me to see how the dogs would be suffering and its clearly being open about its intentions and motivations. I don't like the idea of dogs being bred for money but it doesn't automatically mean suffering for the dogs, so when your niece comes to you and says she wants to buy a "cavoodle" from Hepburn Park and you say they are a puppy farm what do you say when she answers "no they're not, look they have dog parks, they are clean and even have a swimming pool etc."?

How do you convince your niece without using words like "probably" "may" "usually" "often" in other words not assuming the worst is happening there but having some proof of the suffering taking place there?

The answer is, I don't know. I'd hedge on the side of 'yes', it's a puppy farm. What the place says on its website doesn't necessarily have any bearing on what it actually is. Dog parks and swimming pools don't really mean anything. They're not going to say that their dogs are kept in cages - and while it's conjecture, I highly doubt that this place will end up being as open and transparent as its website suggests at the moment. Some places that I definitely consider to be puppy farms have similar websites.

As for how I convince my hypothetical niece - the same way I engage with anyone else. Point them to rescues, talk with them about what they want, and what kind of breed, age etc, would best match them. Explain why I chose to go to a breeder, and how and why I chose the breeder that I did. Explaining the importance of health, why I think it's best to go to someone who prioritises that, and has a well thought out breeding program, rather than someone who could be lumped in with puppy farming and the whole whole industry. At the end of the day, everybody is going to make their own choice around what dog they get and where they get it from. I don't see a problem with 'probably', 'may', 'often', etc. Most people are quite reasonable and open if you talk to them in an open and interested way - it's not about brow beating someone into not buying from a particular place.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Alkhe

[nawnim]

She must be the only one that Idolises Julia at the moment :laugh:

Does anyone idolize the alternative? What sort of dog does he own?

he definitely owns a rare budgie smuggler pooch

H

:laugh:

[LizT]

Thanks :) I sent her all of these links and stuff she started to cry I felt so bad so relieved.

whether it has actually made her not want one or not I will never know at this point in time but atleast now she is a little more educated about the whole designer breed process.

Thanks DOL xxxx

Great, now she 'll find a lovely family with a well looked after, loved and cared for Poodle and Cavalier that they breed the occassional litter from. That's my friends daughter, she used to breed unregistered CKCS and is now mating them to Miniature Poodles. But apparently it's okay as she is not a "Puppy Farmer". I think health testing is a stronger point to make. Even my son's girlfriend thinks it's okay to buy a puppy from a Pet Shop if the Pet shop has a sign that says "We do not support Puppy Farms. Our dogs are bred from loved family pets". You can go round in circles trying to explain this one, I have.

[nawnim]

From the pictures Google gives up, it looks like Abbott is also a DD owner...

T.

Ah we've found them some common ground. :laugh:

[Sandra777]

I agree with some of your points but my question was would you consider this place a "puppy farm" not if you condone this place. I don't think I could condone this type of place but it doesn't really fit into my definition of a "puppy farm" either. When I think of puppy farms I think of dogs being kept in filthy places with very little or no vet care, no socialization and normally very hidden. This place hasn't been built yet but if it was to be built the way the owner says it will it's difficult for me to see how the dogs would be suffering and its clearly being open about its intentions and motivations. I don't like the idea of dogs being bred for money but it doesn't automatically mean suffering for the dogs, so when your niece comes to you and says she wants to buy a "cavoodle" from Hepburn Park and you say they are a puppy farm what do you say when she answers "no they're not, look they have dog parks, they are clean and even have a swimming pool etc."?

How do you convince your niece without using words like "probably" "may" "usually" "often" in other words not assuming the worst is happening there but having some proof of the suffering taking place there?

Clean, swimming pools, sandpits - so what. They are mass producing dogs for NO reason except $$$$$. They are commercially breeding companion animals for the mass market. That makes them a puppy farm. They could be keeping their breeding stock in penthouse suites overlooking Sydney harbour for all I care - it's still going to be a FARM.

[Rozzie]