kiesha09 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 A year or so ago I started teaching my dogs to retrieve with the Shirley Chong method. My boy got it no worries and will now happily retrieve. My girl however is a whole other ball game!! I have been stuck in the same spot for months. When I place the tug toy (I want to train a number of different items but starting with a rope tug toy) on the ground she will pick it up and then drop it straight away. I click as soon as she picks it up. When I try delaying the click (even by a second) to get a longer duration of having the toy in her mouth rather than holding it longer she starts to throw the toy. I don't know what to try next - any suggestions? I'm not fussed about training a formal obedience retrieve, I just want her to retrieve different items. She loves chasing after a ball and will pick it up but then drop it when she's about half way back. I just want her to bring me back the ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 What about shaping duration holds while you have both hands on the article. I would try using something like a bit of dowel or something that is somewhat rigid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 Mmmm that could work Ness... it's going back even a step further to having the item in your hands as well as her mouth. Hadn't thought of that. Would you just use a market word instead of a clicker in this case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) If it's not a formal retrieve I'd just throw it and then reward for bringing it back. Then shape her to put it in the hand you're holding out. It's what I did, and it only took about 2 sessions for them to get it. If it's not a formal retrieve there is no need to build duration I would think ? Edited May 8, 2012 by fuzzy82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Yeah you can use a marker word. The other thing I have done (if you don't have a dog with a huge person space issue) is sit on a chair and wedge the dowel between my legs. But if you have a dog who doesn't like to come in close it might not work for you. You don't necessarily need 2 hands on the object you might be able to just have one hand on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 1336520617[/url]' post='5826686']I'm not fussed about training a formal obedience retrieve, I just want her to retrieve different items. She loves chasing after a ball and will pick it up but then drop it when she's about half way back. I just want her to bring me back the ball what are you doing when she picks it up & starts to return with it? Standing still? Facing her? Encouraging with voice? Silent? I am working through this with one of my pups, who came to me at 9 months, with NO interest in a ball at all, let alone a retrieve. Once I got her interested in the ball, and picking it up, the next step was to turn & run away from her. She is at the point now where she will chase me with the ball in her mouth and instead of running to the other side of my yard, I'm only having to move a few steps. as soon as she catches me, I give her a reward marker & throw the ball again as quick as I can. It seems to be working. I have used this method with a number of dogs who have had no interest in retrieving & it seems to work each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted May 9, 2012 Author Share Posted May 9, 2012 Ahh Ness you are a good problem solver! Thats my problem I am not very creative with my training. I like the idea of the dowel between the legs. She wouldn't have any problems with that at all. I have tried throwing a ball and rewarding her when she brings it back but she ALWAYS drops it half way. I even tried shaping her to bring it closer to me by only rewarding her when she brought it a bit closer than the last time but I still never get past 1/2 way. Vickie I'll try running away from her as well. She may suprise me but I suspect she will drop the ball while she runs after me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Oh my gosh I had so much trouble with this. I ended up getting a great formal retrieve but she still won't do an informal one. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 The other thing I have done once we have some duration is hand the dog the object and then work on heeling around. It might not help but it helped Ness understand the concept of moving and actually holding the object at the same time. Otherwise you can also do a bit of the 2 toy game - initially all the dog has to do is pick up the first toy before you present the second toy. Then you build up so they start taking steps with the toy in there mouth. If they are chase motivated then you might be able to build more distance that way. Kenz has metal issues - she is 100% retrieve obsessed apart from her metal article. She will hold it kind of if I hand it to her but tends to not want to move with it in her mouth. So I'll rev her up and do something like a restrained recall - toss out the article make sure she is really keen let her race after it if she pounces on it then I'll click and reward that. Eventually building up so she takes a couple of steps towards me before being rewarded. A combination of playing this and using extra high value rewards while still having both hands on it seems to be working slowly. We still have days when she races out and won't grab it but she has improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 have never done formal retrieve anything ..but usually teach pups/dogs "Gimme" with anything they pick up ..toys/bones/sticks ..I get them to let me take it ..and then reward (don't use treats either, so can't help you there) once they know that ..then I just throw something , say 'get it", they run, grab it , I say 'Gimme" ..and they come to me .....then I throw, etc etc .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I am working on Kaos's formal retrieve with a dumbell and we are also stuck. Also using Shirley Chong. He will eagerly reach for it and put his mouth around it no matter where I put it but does not want to go the next step and actually hold it. If I let go, he drops it and then takes a while to get him happily coming in to take it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Kavik I had some success getting the hold by lightly placing a finger under her jaw when handing it to her. Seemed to give me that tiny bit of extra time to click and it went uphill from there :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Actually touching the jaw or just underneath but not touching? Kaos is not as good at being handled around his mouth as I would like - would probably baulk. Need to work on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Actually touching the jaw or just underneath but not touching? Kaos is not as good at being handled around his mouth as I would like - would probably baulk. Need to work on that. Touched, just lightly. Just a suggestion though that I got from another DOLer - don't have to try if you don't think it will work :) It took me 6 months to get my girl holding the dumbell so hang in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerJack Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I had issues with one of my flyball dogs who dropped the ball on the run back to me. I had deliberately never thrown a ball to her as I did not want a dog that was mad for chasing a moving ball, I wanted the return to me to be just as fast as the run to the box. I tried a lot of things encouraging her to hold it longer but in the end the thing that worked best was backchaining the retrieve completely by starting with the ball to hand part of it. I had never done a lot of clicker work but decided to give it a go and was pleasantly surprised at how effective it was and that it took literally one week. n I now hav a dog that is so keen to give me a ball she will punch me with her paws and hold it in contact with me till I take it. Still not interested in fetching a thrown ball, just giving me any that are lying near me on the ground. I started in the living room. Sat on the couch with a ball held out in one hand in front of me and a large bowl of cut up steak on the table next to me. I played with the steak so she knew it was there and completely ignored the dog and watched the telly. She tried every trick she knew to get my attention and kept indicating she wanted the steak. Eventually her head turned slightly towards the ball so I clicked and rewarded. You could see the lightbulb moment. She then nose touched it for reward. Then I upped the ante and waited till she opened her mouth and tried to grip it. After that I tugged it a bit till she held on for longer. after that I briefly let go when it was in her mouth and immediately grabbed it again and clicked as I grabbed it. Another lightbulb moment! Then after she was repeatedly grabbing it and giving it back I moved on to increase her drive to get it for me. I dropped the ball onto the couch once and she pounced on it. After this was reliable, I placed it on the floor at my feet. After that I held her collar and rolled the ball to the corner of the room and then released her collar once it was stopped. She pounced on it then too. and so on... really important not to race through these sections, do tiny increments of change before progressing. I then moved it outside and started close again and then once she was bringing it the length of the yard I started running away from her and she had to chase me down to give me the ball. This part got her very determined and is when the punching me and holding the ball against me started up. (because I am not that coordinated at catching with one hand the slobbered ball she had been tossing whilst also holding treats and a clicker.) So inadvertantly my clumsiness increased her urgency to get it and return it to me. When I dropped it, she would again pounce on it and hold it in contact with me till I took if from her. I started storing the treats up in the peg basket hanging from the washing line as I had too much in my hands. I knew she had it thought out when she would give me the ball, wait till I had a firm hold on it then she'd run to the line and stare up at the peg basket waiting for her treat. One thing I notice with other peoples attempts to do this sort of backchaining is that it fails if you lump behaviours together. Don't progress even a little bit till the earlier bit is really solid. I was pig headed about it and still the whole thing took me about 8 days with maybe 3 daily sessions of no longer than 5 minutes each time. For a long while after this I would wake up from a nap on the couch and find a small pile of balls next to me. She still loves handing them to me and still prefers to let other dogs fetch them while she herds them back closer to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Actually touching the jaw or just underneath but not touching? Kaos is not as good at being handled around his mouth as I would like - would probably baulk. Need to work on that. Touched, just lightly. Just a suggestion though that I got from another DOLer - don't have to try if you don't think it will work :) It took me 6 months to get my girl holding the dumbell so hang in there. I'll give it a go. May start in small incrememts getting closer to his face though - he can be a bit touch sensitive. Ultimately I'm hoping this will help is retrieve of the tug - I'm coming at it from a few different angles and hoping it all helps :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 My boy is ball crazy ... so I have two balls. I started by throwing the ball, he races out to get it and once he picked it up I call him and show him the ball I had in my hand ... he would see the ball and come racing back to me forgetting about the ball already in his mouth and would skid to a stop at my feet and drop the ball between my feet while looking at the other ball waiting for me to throw it. He is clearly not bright enough to realise if he really wants the ball - he already has it in his mouth :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I found that by training "tug" (with the rules that go with it), throwing ball and getting a retrieve was a natural progression that didn't really need training for. Of course, every dog is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) My fellow likes to posess the tug. Unlike Tilly's dog he does realise he already has it - have tried two toy game lol. He is getting better but still a work in progress - when I started he would brace his legs and refuse to come closer - little bugger! :laugh: he is now trotting up happily but still sometimes turns his head to prevent me getting it when I go to hold it again. What is interesting is my older girl who I first taught a formal retrieve for obedience will bring the tug back no problem. Edited May 9, 2012 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 My fellow likes to posess the tug. What does he do with the tug (or "try" to do with the tug) when he possesses it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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