Buying A Puppy On "breeders Terms"

[Mystiqview]

Edit above: (on iPhone)

When they paid me, I decided I did note want her back for litter. However I place importance on health testing, hence why that was written in.

Stupid me did not put in co-own. However with bitches it is harder as the bitch has to be leased or transferred into the breeders name who is whelping the litter.

But then, who thought a "friend" would screw me over.

[dancinbcs]

Hmmm OK, it sounds more complicated than i thought and it sounds like it could get ugly.

My initial view was that I would acquire the bitch on breeders terms, I show the bitch and she is a part of our family, she stays with me to whelp and raise the puppies. The co-owner/breeder of the bitch gets first pick of the pups and I get second. We go halves on all vet costs. I would guess this would happen for 2-3 litters.

It would benefit me by not having to pay the initial cost for a show bitch, I get second pick of the litter. The benefit for the breeder - first puppy pick .... and im not sure what else! :laugh:

Clearly im an amateur at this! :laugh:

If you know the breeder really well and they agree to this arrangement there is no reason it shouldn't work. I have co-bred several litters and have never had any issues. It was always understood that the dog belonged to whoever it lived with and my only interest was to continue my prefix and have options for a puppy every now and then without keeping a big kennel. If you and the breeder are the sort of people who can be diplomatic, do not tend to make enemies and can go with the flow, it can be a good arrangement. If either party is the type that tends to have serious falling outs with friends, it can get complicated.

[Gretel]

I've had a bitch on breeders terms twice. The first was my lovely Dobermann. I paid no money up front for her. She went back to the breeder to be mated and didn't conceive. Before we tried again she developed Wobblers Lucky she had missed. The next was a Cavalier. I paid half the going price for her and bred her in my name with a pup to go back to the breeder. They decided they wanted the money instead of a pup so I sold the pup and gave them the money. I placed a girl on breeder's terms once and her patellas went dodgy at 12 months old so we never bred her. I didn't take any money for her upfront.

[becks]

Mystiqview i presume you hadn't microchipped the puppy before she went to your then friend? It is something I do and the chip details are listed on the puppy contract along with all the KC reg details so we both know exactly who this puppy is. Althought, with those people being so difficult in the end, I don't suppose it would have helped without going there to check her chip?!

[espinay2]

I think 'breeders terms' can be quite different in many different situations probably the most relevant being whether you as the owner will be breeding the bitch yourself (under your own prefix) or whether it is the breeder who will be having the litter (under their prefix). Of course there are so many variations even within these two groups and what is agreed is something that needs to be negotiated between the two parties. Bottom line is if you don't feel comfortable with the deal, you don't agree to it (and dont agree to it thinking that you can change something later if you want to).

I have found co-ownership 'breeders terms' agreements to be useful (and I do agree that for breeders terms agreements, co-ownership is best. Doing the lease paperwork really isnt that onerous) and I do own a bitch of another breeder on breeders terms. I know of quite a range of different breeders terms type arrangements in my breed, particularly overseas and from what I have heard and seen many are very beneficial to both parties. I know of some breeders that have a whole group of dedicated pet, breeder and show homes who have co-owned their dogs on breeders terms (some with multiple dogs over the years) and both benefit greatly from the deal. I saw some of this at a recent specialty show in the US - it was so great to see breeders with their 'entourage' of happy pet owners whose dogs (or the offspring of their dogs) were there for the show. It was clear that the breeders looked after them and they in return looked after the breeders. Without them many breeders really couldn't have the comprehensive and successful breeding programs that they do and it is what has helped many breeders get to the 'top'.

So really the MOST important thing though is first and foremost you have a good relationship with the other party. Without it, nothing will ever work.

Second is that you put EVERYTHING in writing. Sit down and go through every contingency you can think of - all the 'what if's'. Some of these might include:

What if the pup doesnt turn out suitable;

what if it doesnt pass the health tests (what is considered to be a 'pass' on health tests too);

who pays for tests;

who pays for showing if the pup is to be shown - and is there an agreement on the dog being titled if possible as a requirement?;

where will the bitch be when she is pregnant/whelps/raises the pups;

Who's prefix will the breeding take place under;

Who pays breeding related vet bills;

who chooses or has the final say on the stud dog;

what if she doesn't concieve;

how many litters are covered by the agreement;

what if the bitch dies as a result of breeding;

how many (live at how many hours/days after whelping) pups constitute a litter;

if you are having the litter what does the breeder get back (first pick of all/first pick of bitches or dogs only, second pick of whatever after you have chosen one to keep yourself etc);

do you pay nothing for the bitch upfront in return for a puppy back, or do you pay for the bitch but the breeder gets to pick but must pay a set price for the pup in return (e.g. money back when they get a pup), or is some other cost agreed;

at what time does the contract end? - after one litter, if it is decided the bitch will not be bred for a particular reason and is desexed etc;

also what happens if the bitch is desexed without agreement of the breeder (i.e. just because you want to rather than a set reason) - is there any compensation to be paid to the breeder.

And whatever else you think of depending on the individual arrangement being considered. Don't be afraid to discuss it! (and if it can't be discussed upfront that is probably a good indication that the arrangement may not work in the long run). A good upfront agreement is liberating, NOT restrictive. It may sound like a lot, but imo it really is a good idea to agree to these things and write them down - even if some of it it is an agreed and initialled (by both parties for each question/answer) Q&A attached as an annex to the main contract and referred to in the contract as being part of the terms agreed. By discussing it upfront you are taking the guesswork out of the agreement, both parties know where they stand and they can get on with enjoying the dogs the way you want to.

JMHO

[espinay2]

Hmmm OK, it sounds more complicated than i thought and it sounds like it could get ugly.

My initial view was that I would acquire the bitch on breeders terms, I show the bitch and she is a part of our family, she stays with me to whelp and raise the puppies. The co-owner/breeder of the bitch gets first pick of the pups and I get second. We go halves on all vet costs. I would guess this would happen for 2-3 litters.

It would benefit me by not having to pay the initial cost for a show bitch, I get second pick of the litter. The benefit for the breeder - first puppy pick .... and im not sure what else! :laugh:

Clearly im an amateur at this! :laugh:

Yes, there are agreements like that out there (I have/am doing something similar though not exactly the same) and from my experience not that uncommon (though you may find that you are paying all vet costs if you are having the litter under your own prefix and only giving one pup back - you may be able to negotiate if the litter is to be registered under the breeders prefix and you are doing all the work). Sometimes an agreement will only run for one litter, sometimes for more.

Naturally it will depend on what the breeder wants to offer and that may depend on how well they know you and what their own needs are and what their situation is.

[dancinbcs]

I will add the absolute worst agreement I have ever heard of was a large breed where the owner was expected to whelp and raise the large litter incurring all costs but the breeders got to sell the puppies and keep the money, before signing the bitch over to the owner. That is a totally unfair agreement with the owner doing all the work and trading a litter of about 10 for one bitch.

Most of the successful agreements have the person who shells out for costs and does the work, keeping any income from the puppies. It can be one party or the other, or the costs and income can be split, regardless of which prefix is used.

Co-owns, leases etc are very common in BCs and rarely have contracts or go pear shaped. The golden rule for breeders is to never let a bitch you cannot afford to lose off your property to anyone. Keep the really valuable ones for yourself just in case things do go wrong and work these agreements with bitches that could add to your breeding program but are not essential for you to carry on.

[Mystiqview]

Mystiqview i presume you hadn't microchipped the puppy before she went to your then friend? It is something I do and the chip details are listed on the puppy contract along with all the KC reg details so we both know exactly who this puppy is. Althought, with those people being so difficult in the end, I don't suppose it would have helped without going there to check her chip?!

Becks,

THe pup was microchipped at 8 weeks (as per Animal Management Act (Cats and Dogs)2008 )prior to leaving me.