Whipitgood Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Do breeders still sell puppies on breeders terms? I am asking because I am considering buying a puppy on BT, not selling one. What sort of things should I ensure is in the contract so that the terms benefit both myself and the breeder? I would want the puppy to show and do agility and obedience with, but also to be a part of our family, it would be an inside much loved family member first and foremost. Are there any pitfalls I should be aware of? I am guessing no money is exchanged unless I buy the dog outright at a later date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Do breeders still sell puppies on breeders terms? I am asking because I am considering buying a puppy on BT, not selling one. What sort of things should I ensure is in the contract so that the terms benefit both myself and the breeder? I would want the puppy to show and do agility and obedience with, but also to be a part of our family, it would be an inside much loved family member first and foremost. Are there any pitfalls I should be aware of? I am guessing no money is exchanged unless I buy the dog outright at a later date? Is it a dog or bitch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whipitgood Posted May 7, 2012 Author Share Posted May 7, 2012 A bitch most likely. Do breeders still sell puppies on breeders terms? I am asking because I am considering buying a puppy on BT, not selling one. What sort of things should I ensure is in the contract so that the terms benefit both myself and the breeder? I would want the puppy to show and do agility and obedience with, but also to be a part of our family, it would be an inside much loved family member first and foremost. Are there any pitfalls I should be aware of? I am guessing no money is exchanged unless I buy the dog outright at a later date? Is it a dog or bitch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Sometimes you will be asked to pay for the bitch but reimbursed when a litter is had. At least that is how I know a couple have happened. I have also known some where no money exchanged hands. I would want it made very clear how many litters, who will whelp them, what costs (eg health testing, vet bills) each party is paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 A bitch most likely. Do breeders still sell puppies on breeders terms? I am asking because I am considering buying a puppy on BT, not selling one. What sort of things should I ensure is in the contract so that the terms benefit both myself and the breeder? I would want the puppy to show and do agility and obedience with, but also to be a part of our family, it would be an inside much loved family member first and foremost. Are there any pitfalls I should be aware of? I am guessing no money is exchanged unless I buy the dog outright at a later date? Is it a dog or bitch? My preferred option with a bitch is for the buyer to pay for the bitch then have the breeder pay back the purchase price when the bitch produces a litter for the breeder, at the breeder's premises, under their prefix. This protects the breeder if the buyer reneges on the deal or the bitch is lost or killed in an accident. Some place the bitch for free but expect two or even three litters back. Personally I think one normal sized litter is all that should be expected but some owners are happy for their girl to have a second or third. In these circumstances I think the owner should be paid the price of a puppy for each normal sized litter produced. With a litter of just one or two puppies the breeder is usually well out of pocket. Another arrangement that has worked well for me on several occasions is for the buyer to pay for the bitch and all expenses for the litter. They raise the litter, by my choice of sire, at their house, under my prefix with supervision and lots and lots of help including finding buyers. They sell the puppies (usually keeping one) and keep the money and if I want pick puppy I pay for the outgoing expenses of registration, vaccinations, microchip, etc for that puppy. This gives them the experience of having a litter with someone to "hold their hand" before they decide if dog breeding is something they really want to get in to. Some decide one litter is enough, others go on to be dedicated breeders. It allows my prefix to continue while leaving the bitches at home with their families and I have no interest in any financial gain from the arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 It is essential that it is very clear what costs and arrangements are going to happen. Who pays for general upkeep and who pays for health tests. Also when the bitch is to be bred and how long do you keep her entire if not bred early. If you take on a bitch, be prepared to potentially lose the bitch for up to 6 months as the breeder may wish to keep the bitch from the beginning of her season to when the pups leave at 8 weeks. If you have ANY qualms about that potential aspect, then maybe rethink a bitch in favour of a dog. If there is anything you think is amiss in what the breeder is wanting back, then please ask them questions and get clarification. If you are still unsure, do not go through with it. Some BT are good, others are very one sided to the breeder My BT has been a co-own with buyer paying full price and me to assess the puppy at 18 months for breeding. If I wish to proceed, then I pay all health testing as I would need to do this of I kept the bitch here and re-imburse the puppy buyer their purchase price or give option for a puppy in the litter. At least as others have said, if she is desexed, then they get their pet and I dont lose either. BT's can be very good but we have seen on here when they fall very bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 How many litters would be fair for this agreement? and would it depend on if the bitch had an average size litter first time, or a litter of just one sex (that the breeder didn't want) or a small number of pups? I'm thinking about looking for my next giant on breeding terms, simply as I want a good quality bitch to show and have never wanted to have a litter of this breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I know in my breed some consider 4 a decent size litter (at least as far as stud fee goes) I suppose if you get all of one sex, then that is part and parcel of breeding. I did breeders term once on a A litter. I got two pups - one male, one female. Too bad so sad as far as trying again goes. The deal was one litter and that is what I got. Personally I think two litters are enough, especially if the first was small. As for more of one sex, well it only takes one pup to be the potential next BIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Personally, I wouldn't do it. Have done it in the past and it ended in tears. If you really want to do it, get it ALL in writing and cover ALL eventualities, even those you'd rather not think about, including the bitch dying as a result of an unsuccessful litter, changes of circumstance, illness and infertility etc. Personally, unless the agreement is for a single puppy back, and you have some input into the dogs she goes to and unless the ownership of the bitch reverts to you at the completion of the breeding/s, then I would be running a mile. Breeders terms agreements generally only favour one person and that isn't usually the person who has the responsibility of the day to day maintenance and care of the bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Ellz: Or the person who takes the bitch, screws you over, and won't even honour any part of the agreement/contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Ellz: Or the person who takes the bitch, screws you over, and won't even honour any part of the agreement/contract. That too. Either way, any agreement must cover ALL eventualities. And remember too that in a court of law, it is unlikely that any dispute over a breeding term or lease agreement will go in the favour of the breeder/owner. Consideration will most likely be given to the person who has paid most of the bills for the care and welfare of the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) It all comes down to the terms of the agreement. Ellz is right - get it all in writing. Where the bitch will live, who pays for what (show entries, vets fees, food etc), how many litters/pups breeder gets, a maximum breeding age, who choses sires, and most importantly what happens if the bitch does not whelp any pups. Will the dog be co-owned or owned outright by you? Personally, if you are taking on a bitch and the breeder will get her back for a litter OR get a pup back, IMO you shouldn't have to pay anything for her. Edited May 10, 2012 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 If you'd like to send me an email/PM with your email, I can send you a contract regarding a bitch I currently have out on terms. It may give you a starting point and ideas at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I had a full contract on the bitch I had out. They failed to do the health testing, bred the bitch to an untested dog of theirs. They have made quite a considerable profit on this bitch. I believe she is now up for sale on the classifieds. When I had contacted them and informed them of the contract terms. They first claimed they offered her back months ago (lie as they bred her), and secondly then said, how can I guarantee it is my bitch they have up for sale. Full clauses in the contract of what/who etc. To take it further I will need to take it to the small claims court. Bottom line.. BT's are not worth the paper they are printed on unless you wish to take it to court when you are screwed over by someone not any better than a BYB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I had a full contract on the bitch I had out. They failed to do the health testing, bred the bitch to an untested dog of theirs. They have made quite a considerable profit on this bitch. I believe she is now up for sale on the classifieds. When I had contacted them and informed them of the contract terms. They first claimed they offered her back months ago (lie as they bred her), and secondly then said, how can I guarantee it is my bitch they have up for sale. Full clauses in the contract of what/who etc. To take it further I will need to take it to the small claims court. Bottom line.. BT's are not worth the paper they are printed on unless you wish to take it to court when you are screwed over by someone not any better than a BYB. People read the above and learn what can happen. Also make sure your bitch is microchipped and has been DNA Profiled it may be the only way to get her back. We often hear of how the person with the bitch may get screwed but in this case see how the owner of the bitch has been screwed. So sorry this has has happened to you and your bitch Mystiqview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whipitgood Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Hmmm OK, it sounds more complicated than i thought and it sounds like it could get ugly. My initial view was that I would acquire the bitch on breeders terms, I show the bitch and she is a part of our family, she stays with me to whelp and raise the puppies. The co-owner/breeder of the bitch gets first pick of the pups and I get second. We go halves on all vet costs. I would guess this would happen for 2-3 litters. It would benefit me by not having to pay the initial cost for a show bitch, I get second pick of the litter. The benefit for the breeder - first puppy pick .... and im not sure what else! :laugh: Clearly im an amateur at this! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) Hmmm OK, it sounds more complicated than i thought and it sounds like it could get ugly. My initial view was that I would acquire the bitch on breeders terms, I show the bitch and she is a part of our family, she stays with me to whelp and raise the puppies. The co-owner/breeder of the bitch gets first pick of the pups and I get second. We go halves on all vet costs. I would guess this would happen for 2-3 litters. It would benefit me by not having to pay the initial cost for a show bitch, I get second pick of the litter. The benefit for the breeder - first puppy pick .... and im not sure what else! :laugh: Clearly im an amateur at this! :laugh: I have a bitch that I will have a litter with (in my prefix) but the breeder gets a puppy back. I am happy with that because I have bred before and didn't want her to have to go back to the breeder. I will say make sure it is all signed off and your happy with it well in advance. Edited May 10, 2012 by Jumabaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Hmmm OK, it sounds more complicated than i thought and it sounds like it could get ugly. My initial view was that I would acquire the bitch on breeders terms, I show the bitch and she is a part of our family, she stays with me to whelp and raise the puppies. The co-owner/breeder of the bitch gets first pick of the pups and I get second. We go halves on all vet costs. I would guess this would happen for 2-3 litters. It would benefit me by not having to pay the initial cost for a show bitch, I get second pick of the litter. The benefit for the breeder - first puppy pick .... and im not sure what else! :laugh: Clearly im an amateur at this! :laugh: If it would only work that way Whipitgood. The reality is more likely going to be.....you acquire the bitch on breeders terms, show her, have her as part of your family, pay all her vets bills, care etc. Return to the breeder to whelp and rear the puppies. Owner of bitch gets ALL of the litter unless they are very very generous which is most unlikely. And what happens if you do agree for the breeder to have first pick and they pick the puppy YOU want?? The owner of the bitch, and therefore the litter would pay the expenses for whelping but you would still have to feed up until the puppies are born and then get the bitch back into condition after the litter. It would not benefit you at all because you have all the expenses and responsibilities of the bitch but no real reward UNLESS the breeder is prepared to sign her over afterwards. And then you have to pray that nothing happens to render the bitch infertile, or that you don't lose the bitch during whelping or due to complications afterwards. It's really NOT worth going into unless you really, really, REALLY trust the person whom you are dealing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I got my first bitch back in 1982 on Breeders Terms It was a great way for me to learn as the breeder taught me everything and then supported me when I bred on further litters. - have had 3 bitches from the past out on the same terms as I had been given - two of these bitches i bred and then signed over to the homes and one I decided not to breed and so signed over. Currently have two bitch pups out on breeders terms - The registration stays in my name - The families take the dog (no cost) but pay all the normal expenses of having a dog, (vaccinations, food, kenneling) - I pay all expenses relating to DNA, hip/elbow and eyes and then the costs of the breeding - when the bitch comes into season the family can choose to send her to stay with me so they don't have to worry about her season. When the bitch is about 2 to 3 years old, she will come back to have her litter and when able to be separated from pups will then go back to the home - If I get five live puppies (including at least one bitch) and then will sign the bitch over to the family, if there are no bitches and/or less than 5 pups then we go 50/50 partnership on the next litter. The advantage for the people taking the bitch on terms mean they get a good quality pup who ends up with all the health tests done and is a proven breeding bitch - I get the advantage of having the chance to breed on with some of my own stock but not have to run on too many dogs. The dog has the advantage of having a permanent loving home. There is a lot dependant upon the people who you enter into this agreement. I have been lucky to have families who I have known for years and have lived nearby. One family years ago showed the bitch and then went on to breed two more litters of which two pups were successful in the ring. I have even a few families who have purchased dogs prior who are thinking that in the next year or so they might love to take on a girl on breeders terms. This is probably the best way for a bitch to go out on terms as these are families that have been successful and happy living with your breed and you have built a relationship and loyalty with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I had a full contract on the bitch I had out. They failed to do the health testing, bred the bitch to an untested dog of theirs. They have made quite a considerable profit on this bitch. I believe she is now up for sale on the classifieds. When I had contacted them and informed them of the contract terms. They first claimed they offered her back months ago (lie as they bred her), and secondly then said, how can I guarantee it is my bitch they have up for sale. Full clauses in the contract of what/who etc. To take it further I will need to take it to the small claims court. Bottom line.. BT's are not worth the paper they are printed on unless you wish to take it to court when you are screwed over by someone not any better than a BYB. People read the above and learn what can happen. Also make sure your bitch is microchipped and has been DNA Profiled it may be the only way to get her back. We often hear of how the person with the bitch may get screwed but in this case see how the owner of the bitch has been screwed. So sorry this has has happened to you and your bitch Mystiqview. I did not put this bitch out in co-own. I had written into the contract a return litter/puppy. They paid me for the bitch when she was 14 months old, however in the contract there was still the condition the bitch must be hip/elbow scored and eye tested PRIOR to breeding. It was also in the contract that if they do not wish to keep the bitch, she was to be returned and should they contravene any condition, they forfeit rights to the bitch. Well they did not health test her claiming that being a "working" dog any hip/elbow score Would be inaccurate. They did not eye test her. And then used a dog of theirs who ALSO was not fully health tested. They charged a full amount for each puppy gaining a healthy $7000 pure profit. I had requested to have bitch returned as per contract upon finding her for sale. And was told a F OFF This was a supposed friend and at the time they got the puppy from me had been doing the right thing with regards to health testing. It now seems like their primary concern is maximum profit by not health testing their breeding stock. Pretty peeved as this is a bitch holding my prefix being used in a breeding program with someone who is no better than a BYB Would I do BT again? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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