American Johnson Bulldog

[Steve]

Yep but its also the fact that there seems to be some mind set that only ANKC breeders care or test too.

Just because some breeds exist with out ANKC recognition shouldn't threaten ANKC recognised breed breeders.

[BJean]

Yep but its also the fact that there seems to be some mind set that only ANKC breeders care or test too.

Just because some breeds exist with out ANKC recognition shouldn't threaten ANKC recognised breed breeders.

It's also an aggressive monopolistic business strategy.

Eg: Judges from FCI and its signatories (ie ANKC)

cannot judge at any other dog show, or breed exhibition

unless the event is sanctioned by the FCI or ANKC etc.

So if another group of people or breeders wants to develop or learn more about their own breed or even a new breed

FCI and friends attempt to shut them down.

[Kajtek]

Yarracully, such disappointing information

Not sure why - its just different to what we are used to - its not so different to many other registries. No code of conduct for members and allowing them to breed how ever they want is also common including the AKC. Just because the ANKC do it one way doesnt mean its the only way.

Agreed Steve. I was referring to this and hope that's not the case. They are fantastic dogs.

Yarracully said:

"ETA: the more I search around about this the worse it seems. No requirements to register a kennel name with the breed council. "Just register the name when you have your first litter of pups" (Taken from the American Bulldog National Breed Council forum I just found) No code of ethics, no minimum age for breeding, no restrictions on consecutive litters".

Edited May 7, 2012 by Kajtek

[BJean]

"ETA: the more I search around about this the worse it seems. No requirements to register a kennel name with the breed council. "Just register the name when you have your first litter of pups" (Taken from the American Bulldog National Breed Council forum I just found) No code of ethics, no minimum age for breeding, no restrictions on consecutive litters".

Minimum age for breeding - what a rort that one is.

[Steve]

Yarracully, such disappointing information

Not sure why - its just different to what we are used to - its not so different to many other registries. No code of conduct for members and allowing them to breed how ever they want is also common including the AKC. Just because the ANKC do it one way doesnt mean its the only way.

Agreed Steve. I was referring to this and hope that's not the case. They are fantastic dogs.

Yarracully said:

"ETA: the more I search around about this the worse it seems. No requirements to register a kennel name with the breed council. "Just register the name when you have your first litter of pups" (Taken from the American Bulldog National Breed Council forum I just found) No code of ethics, no minimum age for breeding, no restrictions on consecutive litters".

But why? What is the problem with registering the kennel name at time of first litter instead of 18 months before hand?

Why do they need a code of ethics to register a dog if their only objective is to keep a stud registry and not regulate breeders?

Why do they need a minimum age for breeding when the concept of having a minimum age for breeding is against all science of canine husbandry and in most states its covered by state laws anyway? Why do they need to restrict consecutive litters when this is also against all science of canine husbandry and it is also regulated by state laws?

By the way this is exactly how the ANKC used to operate - and how the AKC still does operate.

[Sheridan]

If pedigree papers are issued "on the day" providing your dog meets the standard according to one individual, then there really isn't a guarantee about the purity of the dog.

We did pretty much the same thing with Stumpy Tail they were assessed then allowed on the register.

And the story of wheaten terrier Irish Kennel Club recognition is that a bunch of dogs were lined up and someone went along the line and said, 'That one's a wheaten, that one's an irish terrier, that one's a wheaten, that one's an irish terrier ...'

[yarracully]

But why? What is the problem with registering the kennel name at time of first litter instead of 18 months before hand?

Why do they need a code of ethics to register a dog if their only objective is to keep a stud registry and not regulate breeders?

Why do they need a minimum age for breeding when the concept of having a minimum age for breeding is against all science of canine husbandry and in most states its covered by state laws anyway? Why do they need to restrict consecutive litters when this is also against all science of canine husbandry and it is also regulated by state laws?

By the way this is exactly how the ANKC used to operate - and how the AKC still does operate.

I would have thought the purpose of maintaining a registry is to ensure the purity of the breed and to provide a documented ancestory for the dog to back up its purity. But then if a breed is recognised by a registry that will register anything then that must ensure purity.

Have a look at the Animal Research Foundation website. They have nothing to do with research. They simply provide a registry for anything you can think of, cows, goats,cats, dogs, you name it. And this is one registry set up by one individual that recognises the breed this topic is about.

As for the minimum age, are you saying you are Ok with a pup at nine months of age having a litter of pups of her own. Or even having litter after litter after litter.Because I'm not. In my opinion the bitch is not mentally or physically mature enough to deal with a litter of pups. This attitude simply allows for bitches to be bred before all possible health testing can be done. I for one will not breed a litter of pups from any dogs with PLL, CHG or luxating patella (relevant to our breed). Yet some of these can not be tested until at least 12 months of age. So how is breeding these before all testing is done and in the process producing pups which are not healthy a benefit to the breeds future.

That is why there are many people buying pups and then spending an absolute fortune at the vets because they are unhealthy. Quite often hereditory problems that testing would have prevented

This is exactly why there is such a cry over puppy farms. This is the main reason I don't support the MDBA because in my view (and I will stress this is my view established after researching the organisation with a view to joining it) all they do is provide a registry for puppy farmers. I did look into the MDBAs code of conduct, in my view, really doesn't address areas of health of the dogs.

It could be said that it isn't necessary to regulate a minimum age and let the owners decide this themselves. However with a written regulation as ANKC has then it is possible to prosecute for any breach. No written rule no ability to discipline. And yes there has been prosecution by state CC for breaches. I suppose though if you aren't concerned with health of your dogs then this doesn't really matter.

Then again I only breed to improve the health of my breed. Anyone that will allow a mating to occur without knowing any health issues obviously doesn't care about improving health.

There are many things covered by State laws but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[Steve]

I would have thought the purpose of maintaining a registry is to ensure the purity of the breed and to provide a documented ancestory for the dog to back up its purity. But then if a breed is recognised by a registry that will register anything then that must ensure purity.

Have a look at the Animal Research Foundation website. They have nothing to do with research. They simply provide a registry for anything you can think of, cows, goats,cats, dogs, you name it. And this is one registry set up by one individual that recognises the breed this topic is about.

As for the minimum age, are you saying you are Ok with a pup at nine months of age having a litter of pups of her own. Or even having litter after litter after litter.Because I'm not. In my opinion the bitch is not mentally or physically mature enough to deal with a litter of pups. This attitude simply allows for bitches to be bred before all possible health testing can be done. I for one will not breed a litter of pups from any dogs with PLL, CHG or luxating patella (relevant to our breed). Yet some of these can not be tested until at least 12 months of age. So how is breeding these before all testing is done and in the process producing pups which are not healthy a benefit to the breeds future.

That is why there are many people buying pups and then spending an absolute fortune at the vets because they are unhealthy. Quite often hereditory problems that testing would have prevented

This is exactly why there is such a cry over puppy farms. This is the main reason I don't support the MDBA because in my view (and I will stress this is my view established after researching the organisation with a view to joining it) all they do is provide a registry for puppy farmers. I did look into the MDBAs code of conduct, in my view, really doesn't address areas of health of the dogs.

It could be said that it isn't necessary to regulate a minimum age and let the owners decide this themselves. However with a written regulation as ANKC has then it is possible to prosecute for any breach. No written rule no ability to discipline. And yes there has been prosecution by state CC for breaches. I suppose though if you aren't concerned with health of your dogs then this doesn't really matter.

Then again I only breed to improve the health of my breed. Anyone that will allow a mating to occur without knowing any health issues obviously doesn't care about improving health.

There are many things covered by State laws but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Breeds with open stud books take any dog depending on their criteria without any idea of ancestry and start them off as F1 - it still ensures purity by the time the breed is recognised or by the time they close the stud books

As far as what age a bitch should be bred Im not saying anything more than the science of canine husbandry doesn't support holding bitches off nor does it support across the board decisions which take that out of the breeders hands when all breeds are different , have different requirements etc - and if the only goal of the registry is to maintain accurate stud records they don't need to concern themselves with anything other than those records. Originally the only function of the ANKC was to record accurate records on the stud registry and co ordinate shows - when we can mate, how often , what testing etc is a recent development and not all [most] registries are interested in anything more than keeping the stud records so they can see what dog is in the lineage.

You are way off base as far as the MDBA is concerned but I am forbidden to discuss this here so making these accusations seems a little unfair when we can have no right of reply and you couldn't have a clue about what it takes to register a dog on our registry , what mandatory health requirements are needed for each breed to have their puppies registered etc. And we dont register these puppies from this breed so its difficult to see why the MDBA has been bought into the discussion. We have no one who is puppy farming in our membership and no puppy farmer can register dogs on our registry. If you have any evidence to the contrary we are eager to hear it and we will take steps to eliminate them. I am happy to discuss this and answer any questions you have to clarify your false assumptions privately.

I said it isn't necessary for a REGISTRY which has as its only goal to keep accurate stud records to make any attempt to regulate their breeders - they may know they are not able to police that due to a lack of resources or they may not care what a breeder does and only care about the integrity of the registry - it may not be as special as the ANKC has but it is common and the biggest canine registry in the world - the AKC does it this way - the AKC also has a foundation registry which enables breeds which are hoping one day to gain recognition to use their arms length registry - its just different and if they don't want to regulate their members about anything other than criteria for their registry it doesn't mean the registry isn't doing what its intended to do or the pedigrees are not bone fide.

The breeders I know who are breeding this breed do all health testing and only breed for the betterment of their breed and are passionate about them as much as any breeder and to assume that because their breed isn't recognised by one registry that they are not caring as much for the future of their dogs and their breed is ridiculous. With all breeds you will find some who don't care but assuming these guys aren't having as much of a go at it as any other breeder because they register their dogs on a registry which is not the registry you use,simply isn't true.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Steve

[CanberraCarer]

Edited :)

Edited December 16, 2012 by CanberraCarer

[dancinbcs]

It is against forum rules to post that link.

[Staffyluv]

Very old thread - for the record, no I wasn't interested in purchasing one..

Might be an idea to remove that link though..:)

[moosmum]

Out of curiosity,wouldn't this be the way most ANKC breeds were 1st formed? The standard being the guide to strive towards,the pedigree a record of whats gone before.A tool to assist in the best decisions to achieve that standard.

Hard to have purity before you have the breed and they all had to start some where.

It all sounds pretty much usual practice for livestock registries.The goal there is not "Purity" for its own sake,but rather reliability of type that comes after consistent goals.A large gene pool assists to avoid problems.The pedigrees value is in the reading.What to avoid/what to bring in. I know of registries still open after more than 20 years and no pressure to close them yet.

Seems to work anyway.

Is there a written history of the KCs, or even in depth for specific breeds? I would be interested to read up on that if material is there.

[CanberraCarer]

It is against forum rules to post that link.

My apologies. It wasn't my link. It was only for interest because some were discussing it. removed now.

[Jed]

Some breeders in Aus register the dogs in USA with the relevant registry. I don't fully understand it but they are initially registered as puppies, and then registered again as adults. I understand there is some temperament or health testing involved in adult registration. I think the pups are recorded and then registered if up to standard

This is for dogs descended from American Bulldogs which are registered in US - and in truth, all bulldogs should descend from stock registered in US. Maybe a few generations back, but the line would be there.

I think there are also registries in Aust, but I know nothing about them.

Mantis, think of a big boxer. I love 'em!!

Unless you wanted to show at ANKC conformation shows, you should be able to buy a properly registered purebred American Bull dog. The only problem would be if someone decided to outcross a little and call them American Bulldogs but it should be possible to weed out those people.

Search and rescue, police dogs, watchdogs, pets. Need some training, and reasonably experienced owners but not savage or nasty.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Jed