Alpha Dog Training?

[TollerLover]

I have been training with Alpha Dog Training in Boronia since my dog was 10 weeks old. I have never seen any of the trainers kick their dogs, or disrespect them.

I have seen many methods of training, and I have found Alpha to be the best training method for MY dog. I personally don't believe in treat training - Talk about feeding the dog obesity epidemic! and my dog LOVES going to training.

I really like the experience of all the trainers, as all of their dogs must have graduated to Advanced level, and Its nice to actually see a trainer with their dog to show you how it is done.

The 'No' and circling method works for me, and my dog does have boundaries in the house (not allowed in the kitchen/bedrooms) unless i specifically allow her to enter. She sleeps on my bed, when i ask her too (and she wants too), but i don't want her on the new couch, so she rests on her mat in the lounge room.

Before you join Alpha, a free session is conducted to tell you what the training is about and the methods, if you don't like the ideas...you don't join. It doesn't make the training methods weird, cruel, or pfft wont work for anyone. It does work, it works for a-lot of dogs and you can see this every wed and sun. 100's of people attend, and they don't care about what problems you have or what breed it is....they just want you to have a well trained dog.

The lady you met who had allegedly trained as an Alpha Trainer, might just have done the two week course, which really gives you nothing... the real trainers course they provide lasts a year, with exposure to many dogs - not just your own. However, they are not certified. So maybe this 'trainer' wasn't experienced enough to provide you with full Alpha training.

But, what do i know? I'm just the average joe who just wants to train my dog to be a great companion, so i can take her with me everywhere. I'm not here to fight, i'm just putting in my 2 cents.

Carmen

FYI : I am in no way associated with this group, i just train there!

[Weasels]

I personally don't believe in treat training - Talk about feeding the dog obesity epidemic! and my dog LOVES going to training.

Hi, I am still interested in the question I asked above, if you wouldn't mind answering :) Does your dog gets its meals for free?

There are other people who I respect who I've seen say this too, and I just don't get why you wouldn't leverage such a deeply ingrained primary reinforcer (literally a life-or-death desire to eat) to get a behaviour.

[gsdog2]

I personally don't believe in treat training - Talk about feeding the dog obesity epidemic! and my dog LOVES going to training

It's great that you're enjoying these classes and they're obviously working for you and your dog.

But, ....................... although I personally don't use food as a reward for my dog many people do, and just as you are offended with the opinion of some re Alpha Dog Training I'm sure there will be others offended by your generalisation of treats in training.

Alpha Dog Training works for you AND treat training works for others - ultimately you use what works for you and your dog :)

[Weasels]

Sorry, can't resist :p

Here's my treat-trained dog 2 days ago. Not obese I don't think?

Edit - honestly I'll use any extra food I can get into her, she runs around so much she starts looking a little skeletal if I'm not careful :/

Edited June 4, 2012 by Weasels

[TollerLover]

I wasnt saying that all treat trained dogs are fat!

Take my opinion as you wish.

My dog gets fed via a treat ball/kong wobbler or frozen in water. This is for her mental stimulation........anything else you want to pick on me for?

[Weasels]

I certainly wasn't trying to pick on anyone, and I thought gsdog2's post was very respectful in tone.

I suppose in the same way there are many people who can't understand why the "purely positive"/reward-based trainers won't consider any aversive training methods, us hippies have trouble understanding it in reverse (not that I would say I'm purely positive, but it's certainly my first port-of-call).

[persephone]

Talk about feeding the dog obesity epidemic!

I don't train using food 90% of the time but also I do not see how owners who use a dog's food allowance to reward behaviours are contributing to the dog obesity epidemic.?

These dogs are out & about, working, learning, and getting their meal in bite sized increments ..not sitting at home and being given cake just because they look hungry .

[TollerLover]

But, i dont believe Alphas training methods are aversive..... Aversive is defined as:

Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification.

All we say is 'no' and a circle - This is not unpleasant or punishing...its just re-setting the activity.

If your dog does the wrong thing, how do you correct it?

[TollerLover]

People who have an understanding of a dogs daily food allowance dont have obese dogs, its the people who train with food, then go home and feed it a regular meal that have the issue. I wasnt stating that ALL dogs who are treat trained are obese.

90% of all dogs who walk in to clinic where i work are obese, heck hey probably dont train at all!

I think the topic is getting off track.

[Weasels]

If the dog is working to avoid it, it's aversive. I use an aversive whenever I say "HEY!" - it doesn't have to be physical.

Unless it's an urgent situation, if my dogs do something I don't want them to, I'll tell them to do something incompatible instead. Like if they start sniffing at the bin, they get sent to their mat and rewarded for that instead. So now the mat is more rewarding than the bin.

[TollerLover]

If the dog is working to avoid it, it's aversive. I use an aversive whenever I say "HEY!" - it doesn't have to be physical.

Unless it's an urgent situation, if my dogs do something I don't want them to, I'll tell them to do something incompatible instead. Like if they start sniffing at the bin, they get sent to their mat and rewarded for that instead. So now the mat is more rewarding than the bin.

So will they then know the bin is off limits? In the future?

I'm genuinely curious!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I don't get how so many professional trainers can avoid the science that's out there.

Aversives don't work as well as rewards.

They can still work but it usually takes longer. Dogs are not very good at figuring out what you don't want. They're better at figuring out what you do want them to do (especially if you give them a reward for that).

So if my dog is doing something I don't want her to, I make a decision about what I do want her to be doing instead and ask for that and reward that. Being careful not to get back chaining ie being naughty to get to do something good and get rewarded...

I haven't met many well trained dogs using reward based methods who are also fat. It's the dogs where the owners have completely given up their share of the training and are letting the dog train them, - they have fat dogs. Look in to my big round eyes... feed me... feed me more...

[Weasels]

So will they then know the bin is off limits? In the future?

I'm genuinely curious!

Mine do - although I had the advantage of working from home for the first 6 months of having them, so I was able to redirect them every time they started to sniff, and they never got the chance to get a reward out of the bin! That helped a lot.

Edit - I've also used purely reward training to teach them not to counter-surf, not to chew things except their own toys, and toilet training. They have the run of my house's living areas and the kitchen all day during the week and i've never come home to find anything out of place. I'm happy with that level of reliability. I've even accidently left a plate covered in crumbs on a dog-height coffee table all day and came home to find it untouched :)

Dogs are awesome. They will do their best to figure out what we're trying to communicate to them. Mine learn best with a clicker and a reward, whether it's food, a toy, or a pat. Cutting out one of their two favourite rewards (food) would just make things go slower. Not all dogs are overly motivated by food of course, but it's a nice quick, clear reward for those that are.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Weasels

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

As far as the bin goes, I never put anything my dog wants in it. Anything of that nature stays in the fridge or freezer until rubbish collection day, or goes outside to the sulo bin that she has never figured out how to get into.

She did cop a bit of a self inflicted aversive when small - the bin bit her. She hasn't tried again. She had a similar problem trying to shove through a too small gap in a doorway and pulled the door shut on herself. Hasn't tried that again either. But that is the perfect way to apply an aversive - it's entirely a consequence of the dog's own thoughts and actions.

If she's doing something naughty, I put the lead on her (stop the fun - technically an aversive?) and redirect to something I do want.

[Weasels]

If she's doing something naughty, I put the lead on her (stop the fun - technically an aversive?) and redirect to something I do want.

I know someone who really uses putting their dog on-lead as a punishment (associated with a bit of yelling and angry looming), the result is a dog that goes zooming off every time she pulls out the leash and is difficult to catch when it's time to go home

I prefer making being on-lead just a different (hopefully better) kind of fun :D Makes 'em heaps easier to recall when we're leaving!

[Dame Aussie]

Sorry, can't resist :p

Here's my treat-trained dog 2 days ago. Not obese I don't think?

Edit - honestly I'll use any extra food I can get into her, she runs around so much she starts looking a little skeletal if I'm not careful :/

:laugh: Weasels! Your dog is so obese

But seriously, my Aussie is the same, she would fade away to nothing if I didn't feed her as much as I do :laugh:

[perfect partners]

I have been training with Alpha Dog Training in Boronia since my dog was 10 weeks old. I have never seen any of the trainers kick their dogs, or disrespect them.

I have seen many methods of training, and I have found Alpha to be the best training method for MY dog. I personally don't believe in treat training - Talk about feeding the dog obesity epidemic! and my dog LOVES going to training.

I really like the experience of all the trainers, as all of their dogs must have graduated to Advanced level, and Its nice to actually see a trainer with their dog to show you how it is done.

The 'No' and circling method works for me, and my dog does have boundaries in the house (not allowed in the kitchen/bedrooms) unless i specifically allow her to enter. She sleeps on my bed, when i ask her too (and she wants too), but i don't want her on the new couch, so she rests on her mat in the lounge room.

Before you join Alpha, a free session is conducted to tell you what the training is about and the methods, if you don't like the ideas...you don't join. It doesn't make the training methods weird, cruel, or pfft wont work for anyone. It does work, it works for a-lot of dogs and you can see this every wed and sun. 100's of people attend, and they don't care about what problems you have or what breed it is....they just want you to have a well trained dog.

The lady you met who had allegedly trained as an Alpha Trainer, might just have done the two week course, which really gives you nothing... the real trainers course they provide lasts a year, with exposure to many dogs - not just your own. However, they are not certified. So maybe this 'trainer' wasn't experienced enough to provide you with full Alpha training.

But, what do i know? I'm just the average joe who just wants to train my dog to be a great companion, so i can take her with me everywhere. I'm not here to fight, i'm just putting in my 2 cents.

Carmen

FYI : I am in no way associated with this group, i just train there!

Tollerlover, I'm glad the Alpha methods are working for you and your dog - as I said, they work for some dogs. Being released from a position is rewarding for energetic dogs that don't enjoy staying still, but it wouldn't be much help for teaching more advanced behaviours or shaping, where you need the dog to use it's brain to work things out. I went to the free session and it all sounded good. I started when my puppy was 10 weeks old and it all seemed ok. It was only after I started the trainers course and spent 4 hours a week watching classes, time at their kennels handling dogs, lectures at the kennels and one of the trainer's houses, that I started to see 'behind the scenes'. Watching classes, I saw dogs shutting down, trying to get their halters off, and heard the way trainers talked about their dogs in a way that clearly lacked empathy. You don't see these things when you are concentrating on your own dog in a class. I also watched one trainer (who was also one of their kennel trainers), recall her dog to heel, which the dog did instantly, but because it sat a little crooked, it copped a loud 'no' and got hauled around in a circle with its front feet off the ground and dropped into position. She repeated this over and over again. I don't know how that poor dog was supposed to know what it was doing wrong. I also saw a Boxer's head held down on the ground, with the handler's foot on the lead/end of halter, for 5-10 minutes, until he finally dropped - is that 'positive'/not aversive? I wouldn't say I'm a purely positive trainer (no such thing anyway) - I use rewards to teach behaviours, but sometimes, when the dog is doing something self rewarding, it's not interested in our rewards, so an aversive is needed to stop the behaviour.

Just before I quit Alpha I did 6 trick training classes with Luke Hura. No halters and we used food rewards. Luke says food is just a tool, like a leash - you use it to train and then you phase it out. (Incidentally, no-one that I know, that uses food to train, has overweight dogs!) The difference in my dog at those classes compared to Alpha classes was amazing - she was a different dog, happy, engaged, she learnt things really fast and loved it. That convinced me I had to stop going to Alpha, for her sake. Since then she has been such an easy dog to train. I did learn a few good things at Alpha, which I still use, but what I have issue with is their claim of 'one size fits all' training. This is simply not true. Dogs, like children, have different personalities and different methods are needed. Sure Alpha methods will get any dog to do the basic behaviours, but at what cost to the dog/handler relationship and the dogs mental/emotional wellbeing?

Edited June 5, 2012 by perfect partners

[perfect partners]

But, i dont believe Alphas training methods are aversive..... Aversive is defined as:

Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification.

All we say is 'no' and a circle - This is not unpleasant or punishing...its just re-setting the activity.

If your dog does the wrong thing, how do you correct it?

Would you say that pulling the halter up for sit, back for stand and down for drop, often quite sharply or holding it down with your foot, is not unpleasant or aversive? Instead of being guided into position to show it what you want, or lured with food initially, the dog is made uncomfortable with the halter until it finds a position that gets it out of the unpleasant situation.

With the circle, it probably depends on the attitude the handler does it with. The way it is demonstrated in class and the way I saw the trainers doing it behind the scenes was often not the same! If it is not unpleasant then why do dogs learn to run off as soon as you say 'no' to avoid being circled?

If you have a dog that is quite confident and compliant then these methods probably work fine, but if you have a soft, submissive dog you have to be very careful or they shut the dog down and if you have a dog that doesn't want to comply then they are definitely aversive. Not that I have a problem with the use of aversives when necessary, but only after the dog has been shown the exercise.

[Erny]

I don't get how so many professional trainers can avoid the science that's out there.

Aversives don't work as well as rewards.

As a blanket statement, I don't agree. IMO, it would depend on the situation, event, the dog and what you're trying to achieve.

Generally speaking though, an appropriate mix of aversives and rewards can work even better than either of these things individually. But again - no blanket statement being made by me .... it depends on the situation, event, the dog and what I'm trying to achieve.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Weasels - I also make sure lead going on means lots of treats - most of the time. Especially if we're out in an off lead space. Lead goes on and off and on ... all the time.

There is a bad person at our dog club who yanks her dog around on the choke collar and screams at it when it nicks off instead of doing a recall. It's horrible and embarrassing to watch. She's a club instructor.

Our chief instructor knows she's bad and her methods are bad, but does nothing for fear she will lose three or so of her most reliable instructors. If she could lose those - she'd gain about ten instructors who refuse to instruct because of them.