Alpha Dog Training?

[Kavik]

Hi Megan

As I said to Huski, I don't believe that my dog should have to earn the right to be fed, no more than my human family does. Yes, I was a failure at treat-reward training because my dogs expected treats the whole time. I was a failure at a lot of things. I'm human. But I have at last really found a method that produces rewarding results, and it's a training method I'm having success with, for MY purposes. I'm not telling anyone else how to train their animals - it's not about you, or anyone else, it's about how I feel about MY dog and MY training.

I'm sure you taught your children to say please and thank you? You could think of training them for their dinner (or for their game of fetch) as the same sort of thing :)

[Tapua]

Thanks! I'm going to watch this tonight too (along with the PBS documentary vid Blackdogs posted) - so excited! (I am such a nerd, I know).

The book I've been reading is 'In Defence of Dogs' by John Bradshaw, for anyone interested :)

I love this book! It makes so much sense to me. I have always seen dogs as highly evolved companion animals who 'read us' much much better than we read them. I have a cooperative family of 7 dogs, 3 are completely unrelated and the other 4 are either a neice or daughters of one of my 3 which I bred. They all can come inside they all will happily sleep in the kennel, they all will happily sleep on our bed when I let them - usually when the OH & I are in our bedroom changing or talking to each other and the kids have to lay on the bed and watch out discussions. They will all happily have their own space but of course prefer to be with us. There is no anxiety when we leave, no dramas when we are inside and they are out. They are content. I practice NILF as a matter of routine. When I am formally training for a trail or work or whatever they clamber to get their heads in the collar to work with me. Trial training is a pleasure for them - trial traiing is only 5 minute long. I strongly believe that leadership is what dogs recognises and cooperate with and I definately let them know - without resentment on my part if they are doing the wrong thing. They stop immediately and we begin again or just move on from the moment. People and their control issues create the dramas with their dogs IMO. Its rarely the dogs problem.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Tapua

[Whirligig]

Hi Husky, I don't use a ball reward. I throw the ball for him because I know he enjoys it. I play with him, walk him, and interact with him in mutually happy ways - it's part of being a responsible dog owner. He doesn't have to earn every enjoyable activity I have with him. He doesn't only get cuddles and praise and affection during training....it's just ALSO part of what happens during training.Why does everything have to be earned? He doesn't have to earn his walks, he gets them because he needs them and enjoys them. I know he enjoys those things, and he has a right to live a happy and enjoyable lifestyle. He doesn't have to work for every pleasant thing in his life. He has a basic right to be fed, simply because he is a living animal, not because he's earned it by doing something I want him to do. My human family don't have to "earn" the right to a decent meal, to games in the park with me, why should my dog?

OK, so I'm a failure because the food-reward training led my dogs to constantly expect treats. I'll wear that hat. I'm human, I fail in some things. But I've found something I can do successfully, and a method I can grasp and see the value in. So just get off my back and stop trying to turn this into some sort of competition or challenge!

I like to use the things my dog enjoys as rewards in training, so I can get better and enthusiastic responses and he learns that good things come through me. I use both food and toy rewards. He doesn't get the things he likes for free. This way I can train without the use of compulsion, by controlling his access to reinforcement, and it is win - win. Self control and drive can both be taught through the use of rewards, and we play when there is a job well done. It is a lot of fun and not a chore. Since you are going to feed your dog anyway, why not use dinner time to do some training?

Even my lowest drive and most difficult to motivate dog will give me some good work before dinner :laugh:

Hi Kavic,

It sounds like you do have a lot of fun with your dogs, and you obviously had the time to train them in this way. My problem was that I needed urgent assistance, and your method would definitely have worked (if I'd had the relevant experience and time-frame it would have required to do training) should I have chosen to do so. But I really don't want to make every pleasant interaction with my dog something he has to work for. Apart from that, I still see the dog's need for self control and drive as a form of compulsion, whether he has to work for what he likes,, or whether he's happy to do the things he knows will please you ( ie, he's not going to get the reward, or be fed unless he does what you want him to do). I don't have a problem with your training concept for your purposes. You are still teaching your dogs that they need to choose to perform in a certain way in order to receive their reward. It's no different to the concept behind the training I do. He enjoys being told he's a good dog, and he enjoys seeing that I am pleased with him. Okay, I don't make him "work" for his dinner, but he has his manners at dinner time - he sits and waits until he's given permission to go to his bowl and eat. When he shows good manners by walking behind me in the passage or going down the stairs, or waiting at the open door until he's invited in, he gets praised. There are so many training methods out there, and I'd take a punt that most of them work on most dogs. But Alpha has a reputation for helping dogs that have been labelled "untrainable" and been given the death sentence because of behavioural problems. While my boy was adorable from the day I picked him up at 18 months old, he was absolutely out of control. I paid someone $300 to come and help me, and when she tried to walk him, after a few minutes of him dragging her around, she said it would be impossible to teach him to walk with a flat collar or a slip chain because his neck was already so tough and hardened. Well, in less than 5 months at Alpha, despite all the training being done with a halti, I was able to walk him quite comfortably with a flat collar, using only my warning tone if he started to pull - I'd accidentally left his halti behind when I went to spend 4 weeks on our property in the country, and was left with only a flat collar and an old lead to walk him with. When he started pulling I simply used my warning tone, and immediately praised him when he stopped pulling, and I continued to throw in the praises as he kept up the good behaviour. I'm not always going to be in a position where I can reward him with a treat, but I can always praise him. :)

[Tazar]

Hi Whirligig,

Welcome to the forum in my experience it is a place you can find engaging discussion, useful knowledge and a variety of opinions. :)

Take the good and ignore the bad, don't take things too personally but wear a flame suit when necessary It is an interesting insight into how we all interpret things differently.

Anyway I just wanted to say good on you for seeking out and finding a way to help your dog. Personally I think the Alpha people are great and get down there when I can, nothing like 100 dogs or so in the one place for some serious distraction work!

[Kavik]

Believe me, I didn't start out knowing how to do it, and it is not always easy :laugh: I still have some challenges to overcome with my current competing dog, but I am very happy with our progress

I only do training in short sessions, no more than 5 minutes, I usually do around 3 sessions a day. A lot of the training revolves around choice and teaching the dog to choose the option you would like, and also teaching the dog how to fail and how to work through failure to try again.

At the moment the training at dinner time with my competing dog is about having him choose to play a game with me when his dinner bowl is nearby, the training with my GSD (who is 9 and not interested in training) is to have him choose to do a nice close front and finish with his dinner bowl on the ground, I don't currently do any dinnertime training with my 13 yr old dog.

Certainly, a lot of training methods work, and it is about finding the one that works for you, sits well with you in terms of method, and helps you to achieve what you would like with your dog.

[Whirligig]

Hi Whirligig,

Welcome to the forum in my experience it is a place you can find engaging discussion, useful knowledge and a variety of opinions. :)

Take the good and ignore the bad, don't take things too personally but wear a flame suit when necessary It is an interesting insight into how we all interpret things differently.

Anyway I just wanted to say good on you for seeking out and finding a way to help your dog. Personally I think the Alpha people are great and get down there when I can, nothing like 100 dogs or so in the one place for some serious distraction work!

Thanks. I have found it a really intriguing site and look forward to learning a lot more. Very good advice Tazar, and I won't take things personally. I'm here to learn and pick up what I feel will help me.

Cheers!

[Whirligig]

Believe me, I didn't start out knowing how to do it, and it is not always easy :laugh: I still have some challenges to overcome with my current competing dog, but I am very happy with our progress

I only do training in short sessions, no more than 5 minutes, I usually do around 3 sessions a day. A lot of the training revolves around choice and teaching the dog to choose the option you would like, and also teaching the dog how to fail and how to work through failure to try again.

At the moment the training at dinner time with my competing dog is about having him choose to play a game with me when his dinner bowl is nearby, the training with my GSD (who is 9 and not interested in training) is to have him choose to do a nice close front and finish with his dinner bowl on the ground, I don't currently do any dinnertime training with my 13 yr old dog.

Certainly, a lot of training methods work, and it is about finding the one that works for you, sits well with you in terms of method, and helps you to achieve what you would like with your dog.

Sounds great, Kavic! I'm considering either agility or tracking once my boy is a bit more advanced and I can trust him off lead. I suspect that's a few months away yet, but something to look forward to.

[Blackdogs]

The main thing I don't like in trainers is closed-mindedness and arrogance. Unfortunately more trainers sit around bagging each other's methods behind each other's backs than getting together and productively discussing merits and ideas. The profession would be better off if people learned from each other rather than smugly trying to outdo each other.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Blackdogs

[Santo66]

This is just my opinion, but the halti I think is a stupid device to train a dog with unless the end result is to have a dog who behaves whilst wearing the halti as the permanent walking tool. I know quite a few dogs collar wise to a halti who behave beautifully with the halti on, but take the halti off and they are all over the place which tells me they are not trained at all and only equipment managed?

To me, a training collar needs to have the provsion to be switched on and off so that in a relaxed state it feels to the dog as natural as wearing no collar at all........this can't be achieved with a halti even without pressure, the dog can see the band over his/her nose......to create a collar wise dog which is useless for off leash obedience and control, the halti is the best tool to cause that situation arising. With that said, any trainer who favours a halti over a training tool with provison to be switched on and off is not a dog trainer, they are a dog management adviser, to me there is a big difference but I guess it depends on what you want as the end result?

[Loving my Oldies]

The main thing I don't like in trainers is closed-mindedness and arrogance. Unfortunately more trainers sit around bagging each other's methods behind each other's backs than getting together and productively discussing merits and ideas. The profession would be better off if people learned from each other rather than smugly tried to outdo each other.

Sad isn't it. Rife in the dog world, same as in any other profession.

And to show you my bias - LOL - any trainer who used the word "alpha" wouldn't get my business. :)

[Whirligig]

This is just my opinion, but the halti I think is a stupid device to train a dog with unless the end result is to have a dog who behaves whilst wearing the halti as the permanent walking tool. I know quite a few dogs collar wise to a halti who behave beautifully with the halti on, but take the halti off and they are all over the place which tells me they are not trained at all and only equipment managed?

To me, a training collar needs to have the provsion to be switched on and off so that in a relaxed state it feels to the dog as natural as wearing no collar at all........this can't be achieved with a halti even without pressure, the dog can see the band over his/her nose......to create a collar wise dog which is useless for off leash obedience and control, the halti is the best tool to cause that situation arising. With that said, any trainer who favours a halti over a training tool with provison to be switched on and off is not a dog trainer, they are a dog management adviser, to me there is a big difference but I guess it depends on what you want as the end result?

Hi Santl66

If you've observed, or know about the Alpha training method, you should know that the dogs do end up walking off lead very successfully, and do so without a problem under extremely distracting conditions. As I've said all along, there are many ways to achieve the same result. As long as the training is conducted in a humane and ethical manner, whatever method suits the owner is going to work best, and will create the best trust and bond between owner and dog.

[Whirligig]

The main thing I don't like in trainers is closed-mindedness and arrogance. Unfortunately more trainers sit around bagging each other's methods behind each other's backs than getting together and productively discussing merits and ideas. The profession would be better off if people learned from each other rather than smugly tried to outdo each other.

Sad isn't it. Rife in the dog world, same as in any other profession.

And to show you my bias - LOL - any trainer who used the word "alpha" wouldn't get my business. :)

Each to his own, Danny's Darling. Just as well we have choices in this world. I've only been on this site a very short period of time, and I'm really interested in people's experiences and views on dog training - that's the reason I joined, and to express my own views, not to bag anyone else's views simply because I don't agree with them or don't wish to use that training method myself. My needs at this stage, and desired training levels are obviously different to other peoples', and I find the "Alpha" training method suits me and the situation I found myself in with a new 18-month, out-of-control dog. I'm not a professional dog trainer, I'm just an average Jo Blo learner, but I do find it disappointing when people become aggressive and challenged by other trainers' views, rather than trying to encourage people with their dog training where they feel they are succeeding.

[Blackdogs]

The main thing I don't like in trainers is closed-mindedness and arrogance. Unfortunately more trainers sit around bagging each other's methods behind each other's backs than getting together and productively discussing merits and ideas. The profession would be better off if people learned from each other rather than smugly tried to outdo each other.

Sad isn't it. Rife in the dog world, same as in any other profession.

And to show you my bias - LOL - any trainer who used the word "alpha" wouldn't get my business. :)

Each to his own, Danny's Darling. Just as well we have choices in this world. I've only been on this site a very short period of time, and I'm really interested in people's experiences and views on dog training - that's the reason I joined, and to express my own views, not to bag anyone else's views simply because I don't agree with them or don't wish to use that training method myself. My needs at this stage, and desired training levels are obviously different to other peoples', and I find the "Alpha" training method suits me and the situation I found myself in with a new 18-month, out-of-control dog. I'm not a professional dog trainer, I'm just an average Jo Blo learner, but I do find it disappointing when people become aggressive and challenged by other trainers' views, rather than trying to encourage people with their dog training where they feel they are succeeding.

My motto as a trainer: If it works best for you and your dog - do it.

ETA - As a dog trainer, I am also very careful not to criticise other trainers, including high profile trainers as I feel this lets the profession down.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Blackdogs

[Whirligig]

The main thing I don't like in trainers is closed-mindedness and arrogance. Unfortunately more trainers sit around bagging each other's methods behind each other's backs than getting together and productively discussing merits and ideas. The profession would be better off if people learned from each other rather than smugly tried to outdo each other.

Sad isn't it. Rife in the dog world, same as in any other profession.

And to show you my bias - LOL - any trainer who used the word "alpha" wouldn't get my business. :)

Each to his own, Danny's Darling. Just as well we have choices in this world. I've only been on this site a very short period of time, and I'm really interested in people's experiences and views on dog training - that's the reason I joined, and to express my own views, not to bag anyone else's views simply because I don't agree with them or don't wish to use that training method myself. My needs at this stage, and desired training levels are obviously different to other peoples', and I find the "Alpha" training method suits me and the situation I found myself in with a new 18-month, out-of-control dog. I'm not a professional dog trainer, I'm just an average Jo Blo learner, but I do find it disappointing when people become aggressive and challenged by other trainers' views, rather than trying to encourage people with their dog training where they feel they are succeeding.

My motto as a trainer: If it works best for you and your dog - do it.

ETA - As a dog trainer, I am also very careful not to criticise other trainers, including high profile trainers as I feel this lets the profession down.

I applaud your attitude, Blackdogs, and it's been really good gaining an insight into your training method and how successful it has been for you - albeit only a smidgen of an insight. :)

[Santo66]

This is just my opinion, but the halti I think is a stupid device to train a dog with unless the end result is to have a dog who behaves whilst wearing the halti as the permanent walking tool. I know quite a few dogs collar wise to a halti who behave beautifully with the halti on, but take the halti off and they are all over the place which tells me they are not trained at all and only equipment managed?

To me, a training collar needs to have the provsion to be switched on and off so that in a relaxed state it feels to the dog as natural as wearing no collar at all........this can't be achieved with a halti even without pressure, the dog can see the band over his/her nose......to create a collar wise dog which is useless for off leash obedience and control, the halti is the best tool to cause that situation arising. With that said, any trainer who favours a halti over a training tool with provison to be switched on and off is not a dog trainer, they are a dog management adviser, to me there is a big difference but I guess it depends on what you want as the end result?

Hi Santl66

If you've observed, or know about the Alpha training method, you should know that the dogs do end up walking off lead very successfully, and do so without a problem under extremely distracting conditions. As I've said all along, there are many ways to achieve the same result. As long as the training is conducted in a humane and ethical manner, whatever method suits the owner is going to work best, and will create the best trust and bond between owner and dog.

So why the halti then..........if the training is adequate in focus and reward and the dog is easily adaptable to that type of training the same can be achieved without a leash and collar at all?

Training results also depends on the individual dog's inherited traits.....one of mine is sensational in focus and off leash obedience in distractions, the other same breed, is still work in progess and twice the better dog's age with double the amount of work and is still not as good and reliable at 6 years old as as my better dog was at 12 months old. The better dog was trained on a flat collar, the more difficult dog works better on a prong collar, horses for courses I guess?

I am a firm believer from my two dogs alone, that a training method although it's essential for the owner to be satisfied and confident applying the methods, it depends on the individual dog what works best and a good trainer IMHO is one who can determine what method to use for the best results by reading the dog correctly......some trainers are very good at that, some are useless and some use a one method fits all approach?

One of mine as I mentioned same breed different lines though, lacks drive, is easily distracted the other is the opposite. The dog with the lower drive responds best to correction based methods, he doesn't have the drive my other dog has to become excited over toy reward above all else so the training methods vary between the dogs. The driven dog won't accept a prong collar correction as aversion elevates aggression and he could bite me where my other immediately submits and behaves.........so employing the opposite methods on each of my dogs which I have tried results in a lack of responsivness all round when the wrong method is used for the dog type.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Santo66

[Whirligig]

This is just my opinion, but the halti I think is a stupid device to train a dog with unless the end result is to have a dog who behaves whilst wearing the halti as the permanent walking tool. I know quite a few dogs collar wise to a halti who behave beautifully with the halti on, but take the halti off and they are all over the place which tells me they are not trained at all and only equipment managed?

To me, a training collar needs to have the provsion to be switched on and off so that in a relaxed state it feels to the dog as natural as wearing no collar at all........this can't be achieved with a halti even without pressure, the dog can see the band over his/her nose......to create a collar wise dog which is useless for off leash obedience and control, the halti is the best tool to cause that situation arising. With that said, any trainer who favours a halti over a training tool with provison to be switched on and off is not a dog trainer, they are a dog management adviser, to me there is a big difference but I guess it depends on what you want as the end result?

Hi Santl66

If you've observed, or know about the Alpha training method, you should know that the dogs do end up walking off lead very successfully, and do so without a problem under extremely distracting conditions. As I've said all along, there are many ways to achieve the same result. As long as the training is conducted in a humane and ethical manner, whatever method suits the owner is going to work best, and will create the best trust and bond between owner and dog.

So why the halti then..........if the training is adequate in focus and reward and the dog is easily adaptable to that type of training the same can be achieved without a leash and collar at all?

Training results also depends on the individual dog's inherited traits.....one of mine is sensational in focus and off leash obedience in distractions, the other same breed, is still work in progess and twice the better dog's age with double the amount of work and is still not as good and reliable at 6 years old as as my better dog was at 12 months old. The better dog was trained on a flat collar, the more difficult dog works better on a prong collar, horses for courses I guess?

I am a firm believer from my two dogs alone, that a training method although it's essential for the owner to be satisfied and confident applying the methods, it depends on the individual dog what works best and a good trainer IMHO is one who can determine what method to use for the best results by reading the dog correctly......some trainers are very good at that, some are useless and some use a one method fits all approach?

One of mine as I mentioned same breed different lines though, lacks drive, is easily distracted the other is the opposite. The dog with the lower drive responds best to correction based methods, he doesn't have the drive my other dog has to become excited over toy reward above all else so the training methods vary between the dogs. The driven dog won't accept a prong collar correction as aversion elevates aggression and he could bite me where my other immediately submits and behaves.........so employing the opposite methods on each of my dogs which I have tried results in a lack of responsivness all round when the wrong method is used for the dog type.

Yes, I certainly agree that sometimes trainers would need to adapt their training methods to suit the dog's personality. And it all depends on what you are training the dog to do, what your purpose is for the dog. However, I also believe that most dogs will respond to praise and consistent guidance without using harsh or painful methods. There is absolutely no way on earth I would have attempted training my dog from the outset without a collar or halti, to teach him to listen and respond to me. His prime focus then was anything that had feathers or fur, and he hadn't been taught anything. At that time, if he had his mind on a bird or rabbit, or kangaroo, he would not have responded to recall, and I would have lost him. In my earlier postings I mentioned that when I acquired him it was impossible to walk him without the risk of putting my back out. Even with the halti that was recommended by the first professional trainer I had out to my house, he'd take off and leap into the air after birds. He actually did summersaults in the air in his attempts to get at the birds. It was horrific walking him! There is no way he would have stayed safe without a lead of some sort. Within a couple of lessons at Alpha I was walking him reasonably well with the halti (now he walks beautifully with it). Once, when I went to the country for 4 weeks I accidentally left his halti behind, and discovered that I was able to walk him quite well with the flat collar and voice control- not perfect, but well enough to get out walking with him. But I know that had I not had him on a lead he would have taken off after the kangaroos, never to be seen again. He hadn't been taught to respond to any sort of recall. Eventually he will, or rather he and I will learn to control his behaviour, but I can't take that chance right now. He will eventually walk off lead under distraction,, and he will learn to obey my recall under distraction. He has a delightful demeanour, but a fairly dominant nature, but he respects me and we have a good bond which is essential for training. At this stage my ultimate goal is to do either tracking or agility with him, but there's still plenty of groundwork to be covered. I personally would never use a prong collar to train my dogs, especially not the dog I have at the moment. I was afraid of injuring my dog with a slip chain - I failed at that method. So there's no chance I'll use a prong collar. Perhaps I'm too soft, but it's not a method that sits well with me. If my dog did break free, I doubt he'd want to come back to have that put around his neck again. I don't want to "break" him down, I just want him to respond to me confidently.

[Cosmolo]

People have to use methods they are confident with, whilst having in the forefront of their mind- the ongoing welfare of their dog.

A method may be a great method but if not implemented properly OR if the handler is not confident with the method- it becomes useless. This is no one's fault- it's just the way it is.

There are certain methods that are easier to implement and certain things that tend to work across a wide range of dogs. I use alot of food and toy rewards in training because when used well, it tends to yield great results. But that doesn't mean this is to the exclusion of all other methods. It's a good thing that many in this thread have found techniques they are happy and confident with- remember also that you can always ADD to what you already do, and in some cases you may get even further improvements.You don't have to choose and stick with one things forever.

[Whirligig]

People have to use methods they are confident with, whilst having in the forefront of their mind- the ongoing welfare of their dog.

A method may be a great method but if not implemented properly OR if the handler is not confident with the method- it becomes useless. This is no one's fault- it's just the way it is.

There are certain methods that are easier to implement and certain things that tend to work across a wide range of dogs. I use alot of food and toy rewards in training because when used well, it tends to yield great results. But that doesn't mean this is to the exclusion of all other methods. It's a good thing that many in this thread have found techniques they are happy and confident with- remember also that you can always ADD to what you already do, and in some cases you may get even further improvements.You don't have to choose and stick with one things forever.

That's why I'm enjoying this site so much. Just seeing what works for others and what I can take on board for myself as I gain more confidence with my dog training. Meanwhile I think it wisest to stick with the basic training methods I'm currently learning because it's the first time I've found something that's worked well for me. As my dog and I progress up the ranks in the training sphere, I'm sure some of what I've absorbed from this site will seep into my future training attempts. No doubt I'll be using some of these methods if/when we progress onto agility or tracking training.

[Kavik]

Agility training uses a lot of external rewards (food and toys) :) . I haven't done a lot of tracking.

[Tapua]

Trainers or people who call themselves trainers (and I am one of them) need to be open to the new, open to the difference. Different is just different its not necessarily wrong. I agree with Blackdog there seems to be a attitude of criticism and negativity between trainers and backstabbing is a easy option to fall for. I have had success - by my definition with my dogs using some methods but it was completely wrong and innefctual for someoneelses dog - even if that dog was the same breed. I applaud the attitude of find what works for your dog. In my experience I learn more and grow in confidence in my ability to adapt to my clients and their owners needs. Helping dogs to live with humans is a pleasure - helping humans to enjoy their dogs is a delight.